So who was better ( Kaline or Clemente) ?

[G1911]

Originally Posted by cgjackson222

I am not sure I am following. Kaline's lifetime OPS+ was 134.
But his OPS+ was 96 in 1973 and 107 as DH in 1974.

Other AL DHs' OPS+ in 1974:
New York: Ron Blomberg 147
Angels: Frank Robinson 146
Cleveland: Oscar Gamble 140
Kansas City: Hal McRae 139
Minnesota: Tony Oliva 109
Texas: Jim Spencer 108
Baltimore: Tommy Davis 105
Chicago: Pat Kelly 104
Milwaukee: Bobby Mitchell 103
Boston: Cecil Cooper 101
Oakland: Jesus Alou 83

So Kaline's OPS at DH of 107 was higher 5 other AL DHs and lower than 6.
The average OPS+ of the DHs was just under 117, significantly higher than Kaline's.

The point is that a player's value to his team has a lot to do with the position he plays. Clemente was still playing a productive Right Field at the end of his career, not platooning with 1st Base or DH.

Your original post cited his 1968 and on performance as average to below average. I was responding to that. From 1968-1972, he posted a 134 OPS+, finishing over 140 three times in those five years.

I agree, and have said a few times, he was just a league average bat his last two years while providing little value elsewhere. 1973, he’s declined and no longer a great or even a star. But that’s 1973-1974, not 1968-1974. I have, very specifically, never stated anywhere that Kaline was a stud in 1974. He was 39 and could have hung on another year or two maybe, but not as a real contributor.

[cgjackson222]

Originally Posted by G1911

Your original post cited his 1968 and on performance as average to below average. I was responding to that. From 1968-1972, he posted a 134 OPS+, finishing over 140 three times in those five years.

I agree, and have said a few times, he was just a league average bat his last two years while providing little value elsewhere. 1973, he’s declined and no longer a great or even a star. But that’s 1973-1974, not 1968-1974. I have, very specifically, never stated anywhere that Kaline was a stud in 1974. He was 39 and could have hung on another year or two maybe, but not as a real contributor.

Yes, I was looking at 1968 thru the end of his career. You have decided to exclude his final two years, which obviously changes things quite a bit.

You are repeating that "he was a league average bat his last two years"
My point is that when you are a league average bat playing DH or 1B that is really an average or below average bat for those positions.

You also seem to think that dWAR is meaningless. Fine, that is your opinion. But perhaps his team thought he shouldn't play Rightfield any more because he wasn't good at it any more.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by cgjackson222

Yes, I was looking at 1968 thru the end of his career. You have decided to exclude his final two years, which obviously changes things quite a bit.

You are repeating that "he was a league average bat his last two years"
My point is that when you are a league average bat playing DH or 1B that is really an average or below average bat for those positions.

You also seem to think that dWAR is meaningless. Fine, that is your opinion. But perhaps his team thought he shouldn't play Rightfield any more because he wasn't good at it.

As I’ve said from the get go, I agree his last two years. A league average bat DH is not valuable. Absolutely nobody has said Kaline was great in 73 or 74. He was also not average or below average the five years before that though, as was originally argued. He was far above average starters at either of his positions (mainly OF). He was posting strong batting lines those five years. His bay isn’t in decline until 1973, not 1968.

I also agreed he probably wasn’t a star on defense anymore and Clemente was better. I don’t think we disagree; I’ve certainly written nothing contradictory to your point here. I don’t doubt moving him to DH at 39 was a good idea.

[isiahfan]

Funny thread...everyone wants to compare this year or these two years or three years that don't exist....

Please compare total careers...PLEASE...or even primes...but you RC guys are really focusing on the last few years...that Kaline played basically on one leg.

Simply...Career stats ARE NOT CLOSE...Prime years are really not that close either

[cgjackson222]

Originally Posted by isiahfan

Funny thread...everyone wants to compare this year or these two years or three years that don't exist....

Please compare total careers...PLEASE...or even primes...but you RC guys are really focusing on the last few years...that Kaline played basically on one leg.

Simply...Carrer stats ARE NOT CLOSE...Prime years are really not that close either

Do you believe that WAR or WAA are valuable statistics?
If so, have you looked at the career totals for Clemente and Kaline?

[isiahfan]

Originally Posted by cgjackson222

Do you believe that WAR or WAA are valuable statistics?
If so, have you looked at the career totals for Clemente and Kaline?

I believe they have value to a point yes....but I also feel they are a bit flawed...like all metrics. And like all sports I don't think the numbers necessarily tell everything...they do more so in baseball than the other 3 major sports IMO. But when the WAR is that close...and I see a MJOR gap in counting statistics like BB, RBI, HR....and the stats that lean the other way are negligible....makes my decision easy. Macro/Aggregate view vs micro/hypothetical view for me

[cgjackson222]

Originally Posted by isiahfan

I believe they have value to a point yes....but I also feel they are a bit flawed...like all metrics. And like all sports I don't think the numbers necessarily tell everything...they do more so in baseball than the other 3 major sports IMO. But when the WAR is that close...and I see a MJOR gap in counting statistics like BB, RBI, HR....and the stats that lean the other way are negligible....makes my decision easy. Macro/Aggregate view vs micro/hypothetical view for me

Okay, well, I don't think any amount of statistical analysis is going to change your mind. So we will just have to agree to disagree.

I do want to point out that most people on this thread, myself included think it is pretty even between the two. You may be the odd man out in thinking that Kaline is obviously better than Clemente.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by isiahfan

I believe they have value to a point yes....but I also feel they are a bit flawed...like all metrics. And like all sports I don't think the numbers necessarily tell everything...they do more so in baseball than the other 3 major sports IMO. But when the WAR is that close...and I see a MJOR gap in counting statistics like BB, RBI, HR....and the stats that lean the other way are negligible....makes my decision easy. Macro/Aggregate view vs micro/hypothetical view for me

Kaline played in one of the easiest stadiums to hit HRs in. Clemente played in one of the most difficult. Kaline hit 226 HRs in Tiger Stadium, Clemente hit 86 in Forbes Field. The HR gap is negligible. Clemente had a much higher batting average and provided a huge value defensively over Kaline. While Clemente didn't steal a lot of bases, he had one of the highest extra bases taken percentages. Clemente also better stats with RISP, .327/.485 to .312/.474 for Kaline. RBIs are product of your teammates getting on base in front of you (as well as playing in a small home park).