At what point do you insure your cards?

[Archive]

Posted By: Dave

Just looking for everyone's own perspectives as to what point they insured thier cards. Trying to put together this beater T206 set has got me thinking. Do you try to insure every card? Just the most valueable? And what are the best insurance companies to look at for this??

[Archive]

Posted By: Steve M.

The question of whether or when one insures their collection comes down to several considerations. The first is value. For some the threshold may be $5,000. For others $100,000. And for some no matter the value they will not have their collection insured.

Second, how secure do you think the cards are. Are they in a bank vault? Are they in a home safe? Are they hidden in the attic of the garage? Do you have a sophisticated alarm system?

Third, what is your personal tolerance of risk? If you are a worry wart, insure the cards. If not you may take some of the above into consideration when deciding.

Remember too that insurance for collectibles is a difficult proposition if you ever have to make a claim. Proving the value may be difficult. Proving that you even had the item may prove difficult. With many collections there is a constant in and out. Seems to me that the record keeping would be a nightmare.

Bottom line. I don't. I'll not elaborate on my reasoning.

[Archive]

Posted By: Mike

If you take the necessary internal precautions, meaning home sec. system, safe, it isn't necessary, and quite frankly is a waste of money. It is an unbelievable hassle to collect on stolen collectibles. Better to handle their safety in other ways. I personally don't believe in sticking things in a bank box. But some find that comforting. Not me. I like everything to be at my fingertips if I so choose. To each their own. I have discussed this at length with my ins man. Quite frankly, if my house blows away in a tornado, or goes up in flames, my signed Jimmie Foxx things, would be the last thing that would be on my mind. But seriously...insurance for collectibles is very expensive, and hard to collect. Same goes for antiques and art work.

Edited to add, there is virtually no crime where I live. But I am not dumb enough to think that it can't happen. Tornadoes are my biggest worry. But my previously mentioned comments still stand. Proper precautions can eliminate the need for ins.

[Archive]

Posted By: steve f

In regards to the recent larcenies and recent SMR/SCD vintage value changes, I'm certain many of us here are on the verge of stepping up to DEFCON III... Because I'm in constant upgrade mode, I don't have an insurance rider, but do have aggressive doggies, alarm sys, safe and a top-notch town PD.

Also, and best (and worst) of all, lucky to live in a high-suspicion/low-crime area with many nosey retirees (from the city) around during the day.

Comfort level is good, though if I still lived back in Boston, these measures would be a joke. Apartments were hit regularly and never was merchandise recovered.

[Archive]

Posted By: Dave

It does seem its a headache either way. With the set I'm putting together, I'm tempted at $5000 to insure the cards. However hearing how hard it is to collect anyway, I dont know. Even though the cards I'd be insuring are on the set registry, I don't know how the value's would be determined. I'm not comfortable with the values listed for the SMR's, they seem low as to what most the cards sell for. And with mine being 1's, 2's and 3's, there isn't any values in print anywhere for the beaters to begin with.

[Archive]

Posted By: JK

Most insurance companies that are in business to insure your home first and its contents second are not good choices for insurance for the reasons stated above. However, Collectibles Insurance Company is specifically in business to insure collectibles such as cards (there are one or two other options as well). They do not require that you inventory your collection and have never (according to their website) denied a claim based on the failure to have a complete inventory. I use this company to insure my cards (as well as a bank vault). The insurance is relatively cheap and covers shipping losses as well fire/damage/theft/etc. It is also A+ rated (I think that is the highest rating in the insurance business). Here is a link to their Q & A page:

http://www.collectinsure.com/faq.htm>

[Archive]

Posted By: barrysloate

There are companies that advertise specifically looking to insure collectibles. The first question I would ask them is if my collection is stolen, how would I be certain to be fully compensated? If they can't answer that to your satisfaction, forget it. I would get a safety deposit box and put your most valuable material there, and keep some less valuable material at home to enjoy. Remember, no matter how secure your home safe is, if a burglar holds a gun to your head and demands you open the safe or else, you are going to lose everything.

[Archive]

Posted By: JK

Here is how Collectibles Ins. answers Barry's question (by the way, I have no affiliation to them, just a customer):

Q. How can you pay a loss if you don't have a complete inventory of my collection?

A. A collectibles inventory is rapidly outdated; new purchases, other acquisitions and disposals of unwanted and duplicate material are the reasons. A collector who suffers a loss, particularly when the collectibles are gone, may not have a complete inventory of the lost property. Even so, our experience is that every collector is able to reconstruct an inventory based on records and knowledge of their own collection. Since April 1966 we have not declined a valid claim due to a collector being unable to provide an inventory.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Q. How do you know I own the collectibles I claim are lost?

A. Yes, it is your responsibility to prove your loss. We have found that if you acquired some of your collectible property from dealers, auctions or similar sources you can provide proof of a reasonable sample of your purchases. A sample is what we require, not complete documentation of every purchase or acquisition. Probably our biggest advantage over other insurance providers is that since we have over 30 years experience in this specialized business, we have a good sense when additional documentation is needed to prove a loss.


FWIW, I keep detailed records of each item in my collection as well as scans (both on my computer and on a back up disk that I store elsewhere) so that I can prove ownership if necessary.

[Archive]

Posted By: warshawlaw

I think a lot about this issue living in an area prone to earthquakes and having lost my home in 1994 to the Northridge Earthquake. It can happen to you; lots of fires occur all over the place, it isn't just a burglar that can take out your cards. If you see your cards as "funny money" and you don't really care what they are worth, or if you don't care if they go down with the ship when the house burns down, don't insure. The insurance isn't particularly expensive, though, and if you have a sizable collection or a low tolerance for risk, insure them for the peace of mind it brings. If you have some items that it would kill you to lose, put them in a safe deposit box, or maybe even a couple of them at different locations.

As far as inventory, proof, etc., goes, I can speak from a good deal of experience fighting property loss claims with a variety of insurers for my clients. The first thing to understand is that insurers are the only businesses in the world that exist for the sole purpose of seeing if they can breach the contract (the insurance policy) by not doing what they said they would do when they are called on to perform. The last thing an insurer wants its people to do is pay claims at full value as specified by the insured. I know whoever works for insurers will differ on this, but we all intuitively and experientially know better--an insurer's best day is the day it avoids paying a valid claim, and an insurance company attorney's best day is the day he or she beats an insured out of a valid claim, because that's how insurer profits increase. Take that as your initial perspective on how a claim will be handled if you are unfortunate enough to have a loss and you can start preparing now, with an eye towards presenting such a well organized, well documented claim that if it is denied your attorney will be able to file a killer bad faith case against the insurer.

Your first task is to inventory your collection. Remember, if you don't care enough about your cards to inventory them, you should not expect the insurer (who makes money not paying claims) to pay a substantial claim on faith. If you actively collect, you already very likely have a highly accurate, detailed inventory of your cards: your checklists. Even if you just check off cards from your sets on a scrap of paper, that data is a working list of what you have. If not, you can easily create an inventory using the Standard Catalog. Just go through it checking off what you have. That gives you at least a starting point. If you are good with it, a spreadsheet program like Excel is fantastic. I would checklist by set, name and condition, at the minimum. If you have your cards in slabs, note the cert #s.

If you are the slabber of many of your cards, you have another ready-made inventorying resource. SGC (I don't know PSA but I assume that they do it too) has a downloadable, printable record of your submissions going back years. That record will provide ID of the cards, grade and the cert number (the invoice # plus the designated card #). If you've slabbed a lot of your collection and haven't inventoried it, get online with SGC and use the submission status checking tool to pull up and print/download old invoices.

Finally, a picture is worth a thousand words, especially in front of a jury. I scan every card I receive before I put the card away. It takes virtually no time to do it unless you are receiving hundreds of cards a week. When I trade or sell a card, I delete the scan, which also takes next to no time. Use a high resolution for the scans so condition can be ascertained on raw cards. Here's a tip: if you have lots of cards in 4 or 9 pocket sheets, scan the sheets whole and don't worry if it isn't pretty. Believe me, no insurer will be stupid enough to deny a claim substantiated with images of your significant cards, especially in slabs with certs traceable to you on them.

Finally, if you are starting from scratch, my suggestion is not to allow a seemingly large project overwhelm you. Knock off one set a weekend, or one album a weekend. Instead of reading the paper or watching the pregame show, take half an hour every Sunday morning to sit at the computer and scan stuff that you did not scan when you bought it.

[Archive]

Posted By: JK

Great advice Adam.

[Archive]

Posted By: Jeff Obermeyer

Well, as an insurance claims professional I'm disappointed but not surprised by the second paragraph in Adam's post. I've read this before from him, and I'm sorry that the experiences that he and his clients have had with their property claims have not been positive. That being said, I'm not taking my superior service awards off the wall, nor will I forget all of the people I've hugged while we stood outside the smoldering ruins of what used to be their homes, people who still send me Christmas cards years after their fires happened. There are good insurance people and bad... good companies and bad. I don't paint all plaintiff attorneys with the same brush Adam, and I would hope to get the same level of respect in return.

Now that I've got that off my chest... the rest of Adam's post is absolutely correct. If you have a loss, especially when it comes to collectibles, you need to be prepared to prove your claim. The more documentation you can provide, the better - scans, photos, inventories, appraisals, auction invoices/receipts, etc. That's what safety deposit boxes are for - to store your documentation. There's nothing an adjuster dreads more than a theft loss involving collectibles where the insured can't provide any support for the claim. Personally, I photograph the entire inside of my house once every year or two and burn the pictures onto a CD that go right into my safety deposit box.

Is it worth it to buy extra insurance? That depends on your policy. Some homeowners/renters policies have maximum limits they will pay out on these kinds of items, usually between $1,000 and $5,000. Other carriers don't have these sub limits - your collectibles are covered just like the rest of your personal property. You need to figure out what your current policy covers, then decide if you need more coverage.

Jeff

[Archive]

Posted By: Joann

Two questions:

I keep a spreadsheet of all of my card purchases - date, card, condition, price, seller (unless generic "ebay"). I haven't saved all of the ebay printouts or anything like that to show purchase price. I also have scans, and keep both the spreadsheet and scans on two computers. Would that generally be sufficient documentation of my collection? Or am I sunk now that I don't have proof of purchase, and really can't get it for what I have so far?

As to safety deposit boxes, I have most of my more valuable cards in one, and am much happier for it! I take them all out every so often and bring them home for the weekend - if I want to show them to someone, etc, so it's not like I never see them. But this thread has me wondering (and I probably should know this but don't). What is the bank's responsibility for those items? Do they have any? What if the bank burns down, or is robbed? Are personal items in safe deposit boxes covered by anything, or is it just a safer place for storage with lower probability of something going wrong?

Thanks,

Joann

[Archive]

Posted By: Frank Wakefield

When attempting to buy insurance, first you must have an insurable interest. My wife or I can buy life insurance on me, you guys couldn't unless I authorized it.

To insure a baseball card you must have it. And at that point you create a paper trail of ownership. And maybe basis or value. Realistically, homeowners or renters insurance isn't going to cover nice cards unless you get them scheduled, maybe appraised, and then pay an additional premium. For your wife's jewelry, you might need such an appraisal and then a listing of each item on a schedule to get the jewelry insured.

When you die, it would be expected that you still have the cards that you've been insuring. If you don't you must have sold them... and the question of when arrises. And whether you paid tax on the ordinary income from the sale of the card. So tax folks might be looking through old returns to see when you paid that. Or they might go after your estate for the taxes if they don't see where you paid taxes on the ordinary income from the sale of the cards.

In a way, if you get insurance on high value cards, you're insuring that a tax will be paid on them one day, either through inheritance or for ordinary income. That might not be the insurance you really want.

[Archive]

Posted By: Jeff Obermeyer

Proof of ownership is always an important issue in insurance claims, especially when a theft is involved. It's hard to "prove" you had something that you no longer actually have. Collectibles present an even greater problem - often small size, very portable, and tough to place a value upon.

Keeping scans, photos, and inventories is very important. What's just as important is keeping copies of those records somewhere outside of your home - at a family member's house, in a safety deposit box, etc. The records won't do you much good if they're all on your computer and your computer is stolen or destroyed, or if your house burns to the ground.

Scans are great, and I have scans of my high value items. However, I also have photos of groups of items that are obviously taken inside my house. You can get a scan anywhere... but being able to place the item in your possession helps even more.

Jeff

[Archive]

Posted By: Frank Wakefield

Hey there, Joann,

While these guys might opine as to what your bank would do if your box contents are stolen or damaged, what will count is what the bank says it will do (assuming they'll do what they say). Ask your bank. I think they will not be responsible for humidity changes that affect the contents; they will mention how unlikely it would be that water damage or heat damage would occur if there were a fire, but they wouldn't cover that, either. I don't know what theyed do about your box being drilled open and the contents stolen (can't rob a box, only a person). And I suspect the bank will mention that you can insure the contents some way.

If you do ask the bank, please let us know.

Frank