t206 Cobb Bat Off...back away slowly and hold onto your wallet

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Posted By: runscott 

I have seen various copies of this Polar Bear back Cobb pop up on ebay recently - why is this card so popular with forgers? Also, the seller seems legit so I don't get it.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2745163599&category=31719

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Posted By: Ben

One of the more believable forgeries I've seen. If in fact it is fake (more than likely),I could see many being fooled by it. You're right though, you often see phoney Cobb batt offs w/polar bear backs...

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Posted By: runscott

The seller might indeed have bought it thinking it was real, and I feel almost certain that he thinks it is real now - but if you check what he's selling, it's mostly '50s-'60s stuff. Many will disagree with me, but I think that collectors venturing out of their field of expertise have to be real careful about starting off with $500 (or more) cards from an issue they don't know. You would only have to handle 5-6 t206 commons to become an "expert" at identifying forgeries - seriously, t206's are super-easy to identify as fake or real.

Having said all this, there is an extremely miniscule chance that this card just happens to look exactly like the Cobb bat off Polar Bear forgeries that have been circulating on ebay, right down to the odd cut. I would love to actually get a look at these - I have never handled a "Garth Feldman" forgery (which this one appears to be) and I am curious what they look like under a magnifier. Many of the Feldman forgeries were sold by "DrBond" on ebay a few months ago, as real. Since he used private auctions, the buyers might very well be re-selling them now, thinking they are real.

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Posted By: Joe_G.

Somewhat unfortunate news for me. I own the same card (T 206 Cobb, bat off shoulder with Polar Bear back), purchased in May of '89 from Mr. Charles Conlon. I know it's authentic but if I ever try to sell/trade it, others may question it's authenticity.

BTW, approximately when were these reprints first released?

Thanks,
Joe Gonsowski

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Posted By: dan

Joe get it graded, if it is graded by PSA, it has to be real, they never make mistakes.

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Posted By: Joe_G.

Did you mean that sarcastically or are you sincere? I've seen recent posts of reprints getting past the grading houses (that is why I ask). I have several T206s with the Cobb being no different from the others although I'm no expert. I'm still curious though, when did all the Cobb / Polar Bear reprints hit the market?

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Posted By: scott brockelman

if charlie conlan sold it to you chances are 99.9% it's good, he has been at this a long time and is well versed and reputable.

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Posted By: BcD

Any M116's in 7 or 8 ?

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Posted By: Chris

I am a bit confused with all the discussions about Ty Cobb backs and prices people are paying for his cards.

For example what would people be willing to pay for a T206 Ty Cobb Red Portrait with Polar back PSA 3? Or same card, but piedmont back but PSA 4?

Or what prices people are willing to pay for a t205 Ty Cobb psa 1, psa 2, or psa 3?

I do not have much $$ to spend, but looking to collect HOFs that are nice cards within their grades. I am deeply concerned about all the discussions on fakes/scammers and want to be informed about what to look out for (esp. on Ty Cobb cards) before I decide to buy. Thanks in advance to all of you.

Chris

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Posted By: Hankron

The best rule of thumb is, when buying online, to buy ungraded T206 Cobbs, 33 Goudey Ruths and such from dealers you know and trust. In a previous post was a list of reliable sellers from this board (and there are others). It is not that reliable sellers never make mistakes (everyone does), but that reliable sellers will give appologize and give you your money back if they do sell you a fake.

Most scams and counterfeits on eBay can be identified and/or highly suspect auctions avoided. Identifiers can include the image of the item (doesn't look real, funny cut, etc), or details in the description (Private auction, All Sales are Final, 'Looks real, but selling as reprint to safe'). Many worry that counterfeiters and scammers are subtle. But to the experienced collector and eBayer, they are about as subtle as a Dick Vitale in a library. They vast majority of counterfeiters aren't trying to fool Rob Lifson or Scott Brockelman-- they're trying to fool people who are impetuous and have no experience or knowledge about the area or auctions.

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Posted By: Julie Vognar

but owning a Cobb bat off myself, I've been intrigued over the years to notice how the slightest change in registration changes the placement of the pupils of his eyes, and thus the whole appearance of the card.

As for Polar Bears, sometimes the front of the card escapes unscathed; sometimes there are bits of tobacco clinging to it; sometimes the white borders have a bluish cast--you name it.

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Posted By: runscott

I mentioned this the last time this card appeared, but here's a re-cap: there are many forgeries and reprints that show up repeatedly on ebay, and we see the same scans so often that we begin recognizing the same details on the forgery - this Cobb bat off with Polar bear back is one such card. Garth Feldman made it, and this is an example, and yes, it looks real. Julie - that's the forger's goal - to make it look real.

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Posted By: Joe_G.

Julie, you mentioned tobacco sometimes being stuck to the front of Polar Bear cards. That is my main complaint with my Polar Bear Cobb, there are several small tobacco reminents on the front. So this is common and more likely on Polar Bear cards than others?

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Posted By: Brian Weisner

Hi Joe
Staining is very common on Polar Bear backed T cards because they were sold in loose scrap tobacco, while the others were packed with cigarettes.

Be well Brian


Scott's right! Feldman has made and sold many fakes on Ebay, and many are still being circulated.

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Posted By: runscott

This is not part of a reprint set - it is a "forgery". Big difference in that forgeries are created from scans of real cards, so a scan of a forgery should look real if the scammer is worth his salt.

Reprints usually have features characteristic of the reprint set they came from - t206's with no dark line around the image, black lettering as opposed to brown; CJ's with no blend between the white in the image and the border; Sporting News with the extra wide white border around the image, t205's with the dull gold border, etc. '33 Goudeys and Sports Kings reprints seem to be easier for scammers to "rough up" and pass off as real, but Garth Feldman has made a good living simply creating forgeries of these as well.

You might have noticed that every time a guy like Harleyman shows up, he/she is auctioning the same exact selection of reprints. There is a reason for this - these are the cards found in the Dover reprint book. The book costs about $5-10 on ebay, then they simply chop it up, apply dirt, sand paper, tea, etc., and then post on ebay claiming ignorance. Garth Feldman was at least a bit of an artist, creating some very nice forgeries.

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Posted By: Chris Ko

has any made it through a grading company? that is what really scares me.

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Posted By: runscott

Very seldom see fakes in slabs, but alterations (especially trims) are common, and a few re-backed t206's have also made it past the "experts".

but...I would like to know more about the slabbed o.j. "mini" reprint.

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Posted By: Julie Vognar

Look, someone just didn't know that Polar Bears are packed with loose leaf; bet others didn't know that some have a bluish tinge to the borders sometimes.

SPILL IT! Aside from the number of times you've seen
the card, WHAT SPECIFICAKLLY makes it look fake?

(I know if I have to look at the two black guys in bronze on a bank again, I'll SCREAM--but that doesn't male me think it's a fake. Just makes me think nobody really wants it, so they keep sending it to auction houses.)

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Posted By: runscott

go buy it

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Posted By: runscott

Read the complaint and follow the link - it will lead you to the last time this seller sold this same exact fake: http://cgi2.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewFeedback&userid=kid756

The key features are the wavy cut all the way around, and the characteristic way that the image peels on the edges,corners, after being roughed-up by the seller. This card has been on ebay many times in the past, sometimes with much clearer scans where the evidence of fakery is clearer, but these are the only images currently available on ebay. Next time it shows up I'll send you a link.



Here is a t205 Cobb reprint, being sold by Garth Feldman, that has been re-sold many times on ebay as "real". Garth now operates as "rollsroyce-reprints" on ebay and gets quite a bit for both the forgeries he creates himself, and the "roughed-up" cards from the Dover reprint book - I'm not sure which this is:

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Posted By: Julie Vognar

...and now I see the wavy cut to the border.

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Posted By: runscott

The plan was to create an ebay auction each week with one chapter: CJ's one week, t206s the next, '33 Goudeys, etc. I figured I could start the auctions to finish at the same time as a batch of fakes currently on ebay and continue doing this until it quit being fun. The issue that seems the toughest to spot is the '33 Ruths, so...

Last night I emailed Garth Feldman to ask if he would contribute intormation on how he created '33 Ruths. He referred me to the April Beckett's Vintage magazine, which has a great article on '33 Goudey reprints that were created in the '60s - I highly recommend it; however, he also insisted that he doesn't make any cards - just sells the old reprints. I find that hard to believe, given the volume of cards he sells, but I suppose the only way to find out is to pay $50 for one of his fakes. I'm really curious, but I don't have that kind of dough to waste!