'William Tell Research' Autograph Authentication? - Page 2

jeffects · #51 06-17-2009, 09:47 PM

Quite honestly, This last comment is so stupid. Shelly bashing. Boo Hoo. Because the facts are the facts? The truth is the truth. Get a life. a thief is a thief. How about all criminals teach us how to protect ourselves from "bad" criminals that haven't been caught yet. I will bash any thief I want and don't need your permission. Oh yeah, don't forget to read OJ's book "If I did it" I'm sure it's very informative and he was acquitted so we should all accept that and move on. What a joke you are.

jeffects · #52 06-17-2009, 09:59 PM

Which poster here e-mailed you on a Morales issue Genius? Certainly not me, Was that your idiotic contention? If that's your claim you are a liar. Easy to prove. Ask Leon. I'm from California you jack ball, if that means anything to you. Do you even have a clue what wire fraud is? I do.

jeffects · #53 06-17-2009, 10:24 PM

Okay, so let me ask this question of the new and reformed, wonderful Shelly. Of all the people you ripped off for thousands of dollars, from all the sincere people you stole from, who trusted you. how much effort did you make to return their money to them? As opposed to how much you kept. How much did you steal and how much did you return to the victims? Easy question and the first step to salvation.

J.McMurry · #54 06-18-2009, 05:54 AM

Jeffects,

You stated that you found yourself agreeing with Bluebird, I'm just curious as to what points you agreed with.

on a side note, you would come off better without the name calling,but it's your choice.

RichardSimon · #55 06-18-2009, 07:13 AM

Do we really have to get to this level on this thread?
I have known Shelly for a long time. Ok, he made a mistake 10 years ago. He admits it. He confessed it and he was punished for it. Right now though, he is one of the most trusted people in the hobby for Tim Fitzsimmons, FBI agent in charge of Operation Bullpen. And yes, I have talked to Tim on a number of occasions. Shelly is also trusted by ebay and many members of this board.
He has worked harder than anyone I know to try and inform collectors about forgeries and to help in the seemingly hopeless effort to try and expose forgers and forgeries. He has done things to fight the crooks constantly. He does not come here and brag about it, but he is constantly working to improve this mess of a hobby. Can any of the negative posters on this thread say the same thing about themselves. Shelly probably has done more in a week to help than the flamers have done in their lifetimes.
There seems to be a bitterness here from 1 or 2 people that surpasses even the threads about politics (and I have been in the middle of those). I am sure I will get at least one response for this post, let us see if it can be done without juvenile name calling and low class language. If you have a grudge against anyone, posting in a low class manner only makes the poster look the fool.

shelly · #56 06-18-2009, 10:30 AM

A question has been asked about me paying back the people who bought autographs from me. The people who bought from me, as I have answered on other threads numerous times, have been paid back in full. Everyone that I knew that bought from me and wanted a refund was paid. Any person that contacted the FBI and showed proof of purchase was refunded in full. I did my best to make sure anyone that had any dealing with me was taken care of. I am proud of what I do now and for those that hate me, well you always will, no matter what I say or do. This will be the last time I will answere this question. It has been ten years and enough is enough.

pscolgrafs · #57 06-18-2009, 04:31 PM

Wow, jackball...Leon, how about a suspension for name calling?...Jeffects, did I say it was you? Who knows it may be you. This clown (e-mailer) lives through an e-mail address and an e-mail address only and harrases me, that's all I know. Oh well, I ignore them. You are just another person who doesn't see the whole picture and can form an opinion without facing the person. The beauty of the Internet. Shelly has done a tremendous amount to pay back those who he harmed and has done a great deal of good. But nothing anyone says can sway you in the direction of logic, so why bother with you. Just take your cheap shots and name call. That's what you are good at.

tinkereversandme · #58 06-18-2009, 05:26 PM

The sign of ignorance is insulting someone with a retort. I will give you my two cents here (looking forward to being attacked) but the people in the hobby that are educated know that Shelly Jaffe has done good by them and that's all that should matter. You never see educated, well respected people call another "jackball" and if you had read the O.J book, he did not admit to the crimes, nor did he do anytime, nor did he better himself in anyway once he was released, so what the hell was that exactly? Nobody takes people like you seriously on a board like this that is chock-full of educated individuals who know how to debate points and do so as adults.

Larry

slidekellyslide · #59 06-18-2009, 06:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pscolgrafs

Wow, jackball...Leon, how about a suspension for name calling?

He has been warned and given an infraction. That was totally uncalled for.

jeffects · #60 06-18-2009, 06:22 PM

What is with you people? Larry, you are beyond ignorant. I'm sure most sane people can clearly see that. This "jackball" implied that we had some correspondence related to Morales. He implied that he knew me and that I lived in Pa. do you deny that? It's obvious, but grasp on whatever you want. He also implied that we had exchanged e-mails about Morales. That's an absolute lie. He implied that he knows me and I'm from PA. Another lie. Is this your friend, a liar? Good for you loser. This person is a liar and I look forward to all of you people with no scruples defending him.

slidekellyslide · #61 06-18-2009, 06:29 PM

Jeffects, I am going to assume you didn't get my note with the warning since we both posted at the same time so I'm telling you right now to stop with the name calling or your stay here is going to be very short.

jeffects · #62 06-18-2009, 06:33 PM

Great. This liar can imply that I am a morles supporter. And he can lie about e-mails that never existed. He can act as though he knows me and I live in PA. He can damage any credibility that I may garner on this web-site and you feel compelled to warn me, punish me? Ha Ha Dan. Youn are very amusing. And...Whatever you are.

slidekellyslide · #63 06-18-2009, 06:38 PM

You must have a guilty conscience because nowhere in his post did he say or imply that it was you that was harassing him. Either way you still don't get to call people "Jackballs" on this forum.

jeffects · #64 06-18-2009, 06:40 PM

I've read several of these posts and "jackball" is very tame. But maybe you folks have another agenda beyond honest disagreement. My response was to obvious lies. If that's okay with you Dan, I don't want to associate with this web-site anyway. Delete this, maybe some of your members agree with me.

jeffects · #65 06-18-2009, 06:55 PM

As I read these comments you guys are really pathetic. Have fun in your circle jerk. You for the most part disgust me. Shelly Jaffe is a great guy...A liar and a thief. I know I'm off this site because honesty is too much for you folks. Your buddy is a criminal. He is a crook. He stole from people. And you are all so mad that I called a proven liar a jackball. (his post, whatwever his name is) So terrible. You folks are the problem, not the solution. I had so much fun on this site for a week, seeing your disgusting hypocrisy. So ban me. I can live with myself "jackballs". Boo hoo. Whining punks. Maybe you Dan.

slidekellyslide · #66 06-18-2009, 06:57 PM

I'm not deleting anything. I also have no agenda here....I don't have a clue who this Frank Garo is and have given no opinion on him. If you feel you are being singled out and picked on there's probably nothing I say that can change your mind. Leave if you want, I don't care, but if you stay you need to stop with the name-calling. It's that simple.

Thanks.

slidekellyslide · #67 06-18-2009, 07:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jeffects

Maybe you Dan.

Huh?

jeffects · #68 06-18-2009, 07:05 PM

Dan, I apologize because I thought you would have bounced me "post haste" I have to hand it to you, although I'm surprised, I have to thank you for fairness when I thought it was non-existant. I was wrong. I don'y know who Garo is either. No knowledge of him. Thanks for being fair.

Jeff Clark

slidekellyslide · #69 06-18-2009, 07:12 PM

Thanks Jeff, apology accepted. I still don't think the other poster was referring to you, but I see how you could have interpreted it that way. You can pretty much say what you want here if you put your name on your post, but try not to take it on a personal level and everything is fine.

Thanks.

jeffects · #70 06-18-2009, 07:21 PM

Thanks Dan,

I would like to be a part of this site, and appreciate the responsibility equated with that, Also the honesty that you allow. I've seen it first hand and appreciate it. But then again we could always ask that other poster who he was referring to. I can move on, no problem. But if he blatantly lied, do you have a problem with that?

HOFAUTOS · #71 06-18-2009, 07:22 PM

I remember a long time ago seeing William Tell Research ads in Tuff Stuff and I believe Beckett also. Bottom line is when people fork out $1,000's they want the COA to be from a well known reliable authenticator. Ones besides PSA/DNA, JSA, that come to mind are Kevin Keating, Albersheims, Mark Jordan....etc...

slidekellyslide · #72 06-18-2009, 07:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jeffects

Thanks Dan,

I would like to be a part of this site, and appreciate the responsibility equated with that, Also the honesty that you allow. I've seen it first hansd and appreciate it. But then again we could always ask that other poster who he was referring to. I can move on, no problem. But if he blatantly lied, do you have a problem with that?

Honestly Jeff I think that is beyond my role as a moderator to find out if someone is lying or telling the truth. I only got involved over complaints of name calling.

Dalkiel · #73 06-19-2009, 12:46 AM

8 pages and no opinion on the Ruth....

jeffects · #74 06-19-2009, 04:50 AM

Ha Ha, You're right, This thread got hijacked by a bunch of nonsense. I think some said it looks good to them. I looked at Garo's site after seeing the original posts and he looks reliable. No hidden agenda. I would certainly trust someone more that isn't buying and selling autographs. Like the 99% of these so called experts. From what I see here, If they're not selling it (Or one of their friends) It's fake. I personally think it looks good but then again, I don't have a long list of fake credentials and a web site touting my match book secret service degree in forensics. I would trust Garo more than the agenda driven opinion of most folks here. Another warning Dan?

J.McMurry · #75 06-19-2009, 05:33 AM

Jeffects,

You just brought up an interesting line of thinking with the, "not trusting those who buy / sell and authenticate". There was an article online years back written by Seth Boyd (RIP) Who took the opposite approach,and explained it quite well. I'll water it down to his basic point which is that a dealer/authenticator has to sell legit material or he'll go out of business, an authenticator only person has to issue COA's of approval,or he'll go out of business.

If anyone remembers this article and can provide a link,please do. I've got a print out I'll try to locate and scan.

David Atkatz · #76 06-19-2009, 06:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jeffects

... Another warning Dan?

Maybe not from Dan. But I'll give you one.

If you trust Garo, and buy his certed pieces, you're gonna have a lot of worthless crap on your hands.

Frank A · #77 06-19-2009, 07:11 AM

Are any of you guys who replied to this thread authenticators? If not , how do you personally know if a sig. is real or not unless you got it in person. You don't!!!!!!. How do you pick your authenticator? Your friend or buddy, bigestamount of advertising, most items by them in an auction? How do you know if they are good or not. It's very possible thet their all phonies. To you know it alls, you know nothing, the same as the authenticators.

David Atkatz · #78 06-19-2009, 07:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frank A

...To you know it alls, you know nothing, the same as the authenticators.

Thanks for the heads-up, Frank.

I'll keep it in mind the next time I buy or sell an autograph.

jeffects · #79 06-19-2009, 11:51 AM

Hi J.Mcmurry. I don't disagree with you and everything I bought was obviously from a seller who "Authenticated" it. I of course trusted their opinion enough to purchase from them. Actually I bought most of my historical stuff from a select few. Dealers that had been around quite a while and I usually bought low end stuff and they carried high end stuff and knew they wouldn't risk a multi-million dollar business to sell $400.00 items. So I agree with your point. I have a problem with some dealers but primarily my issue is with authenticators who ridiculously inflate their credentials or out right lie and then are quick to besmirch or judge other dealers who have solid 30 year reputations. I am neither a dealer or authenticator. I had never heard of Garo until this thread.

Leon · #80 06-19-2009, 12:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jeffects

Hi J.Mcmurry. I don't disagree with you and everything I bought was obviously from a seller who "Authenticated" it. I of course trusted their opinion enough to purchase from them. Actually I bought most of my historical stuff from a select few. Dealers that had been around quite a while and I usually bought low end stuff and they carried high end stuff and knew they wouldn't risk a multi-million dollar business to sell $400.00 items. So I agree with your point. I have a problem with some dealers but primarily my issue is with authenticators who ridiculously inflate their credentials or out right lie and then are quick to besmirch or judge other dealers who have solid 30 year reputations. I am neither a dealer or authenticator. I had never heard of Garo until this thread.

I might add that Jeff seems like a really nice guy, and my sr. by a few years, on the phone. Very pleasant call......

For the record- I do call some folks just to make sure we keep it real.....and I realize a roach can still crawl in under the door but it's not as easy as it used to be...happy collecting....

jeffects · #81 06-19-2009, 12:34 PM

C'mon Leon, try two years. Ha Ha. Enjoyed our conversation.

perezfan · #82 06-19-2009, 02:09 PM

Getting back to the point here....

Frank Garo may have the best of intentions, and may truly be an honest fellow. But what on earth makes him qualified to be an authenticator? Even if he got it right on the afroementioned Ruth Photo, he has been way off on countless others.

I have looked at hundreds of reliable Babe Ruth exemplars (team signed balls, personal checks, team/movie contracts, etc.) as have all the authenticators in question. It doesn't take a genius to identify a bad item. And as an earlier post stated, there are plenty of reliable authenticators besides Spence and PSA - Gutierrez, Jordan, Albersheim and Keating, to name just a few.

As stated earlier, I know beyond a doubt, that Garo has given his "seal of approval" to a slew of items that aren't even close to being good. Those awful Ruth/Gehrig examples posted earlier are just the tip of the iceberg. Garo is where people go after the respected authenticators have rejected their item. As a result, his LOA means nothing in the Industry. What does it tell you, that no respected/major auction house has ever featured a Frank Garo LOA, but that Coach's Corner does on numerous occasion?

Again... he may have no bad intent... he is simply an unskilled authenticator. I think that most of us (who really study these pieces) would be infinitely more scrutinizing if that's how we chose to make a living.

J.McMurry · #83 06-19-2009, 05:18 PM

Thanks for the reply Jeff,

You're right, it basically boils down to doing business with people who you trust and feel comfortable with, but one shouldnt get upset when people on the board offer their opinion on an item or person in the hobby.
I consider such input to be valuable, and a large part of why this board is so great.

As far as the Ruth piece goes, the consideration of the cert needs to be thrown out the window, the seller needs to come to his own conclusion through research of both the signature and the seller of the item.

jeffects · #84 06-20-2009, 01:05 AM

You know what perezfan? You are the problem I have with this hobby. Big on opinions and short on facts. How about you show us an example from Garo and how YOU know it's a fake and let us decide if we think you have a f*** ing clue as to what you are talking about. I am so sick of you people passing judgement on others and in my humble opinion, you are even more pathetic, because you act like you know something special and you are even dumber than most. So show me some examples or shut up. You self righteous idiots really make me sick. Uh oh Dan's gonna pound me once again. Ha Ha

jeffects · #85 06-20-2009, 01:17 AM

So perezfan, is it a good autograph or not??????????Be specific!!!!! If not why? exactly. I don't want to hear your ambiguous stupid comments as to why you think it's fake. After all, you claim to have seen hundreds of Ruth exemplars. Be specific. Put up or shut up. Is the R? the B? you need to have some validity to your comments or you're just another loser who has ruined this hobby. Have a good night.

jeffects · #86 06-20-2009, 01:24 AM

Oh, by the way, I had Guiterrez say that an "In person"autograph I had was a fake. I reminded him that he had just sold one in an auction from the same signing. Suddenly the fake became real. And he changed his opinion. Ha Ha That is actually funny to me.

HiNeighbor · #87 06-20-2009, 06:04 AM

Although I've been following this thread a little on and off to see where it's going, I thought I would finally chime in.

Personally, I think it's great seeing so many new contributors to the memorabilia side of the board (especially right now on the pin discussion, great stuff!). I remember when there were only a half dozen of us at the very beginning and I remember the few of us who were actually online when it was born.

That being said, the memorabilia side of the board has ALWAYS been a very CORDIAL PLACE for discussion and showing off our collections. I really don't have to elaborate on this, nor should there be any reason to. This should be a community of friends.

Personally, I think this thread stinks. It especially stinks when things seemed to be ironed out then parties (most specifically Jeff) goes right back into the name calling or telling people to "shut up".

I have no idea who some of you guys are or who you're talking about. You don't know who I am. Quite frankly, I don't care. If you have personal issues or attacks, please take them privately.

Sorry for stating my opinion on this Leon and Dan, but it just had to be said as a member of the community. Others may disagree, but when you collect Michael McGreevy stuff it tends to affect you

Nuf ced...

Greg

RichardSimon · #88 06-20-2009, 07:15 AM

This board is a great place as JMc has said but do we really need name calling and vulgar remarks in this thread? The level of discourse here on this thread is at an all time low since we came to the new board.
Jeffects, are you two years older than Leon? Really? Seems like you are the 15 year old on the street corner trying to impress his friends and doing a terrible job of it too. Grow up and leave the vulgarity and name calling for your friends on the street.
And it seemed to me that perezfan thinks that the Ruth photo, that is being questioned in the original post of this thread, might be good. But I don't think Jeffects lets that fact get in the way of his blowhard opinions and his vulgarity.

Leon · #89 06-20-2009, 09:24 AM

I agree that it's great to see new faces over here on the memorabilia side and the activity level has been far increased with the new board. That being said I also agree it needs to stay civil. There were very rarely any arguments and name calling on this side on the old board.

Jeff- I know you are a decent guy but your language has to chill out on this board. Please remain civil and argue all you want to. If it continues then you won't be participating anymore and that would be a shame. "Perez" has been on the board a long time and to go after him, in a disrespectful manner, is not acceptable. Disagree with him, argue with him, all is good.....act unprofessional and/or name call.....not so good. Thanks for your understanding. IF you have too difficult of a time arguing and staying civil then maybe this isn't a good board for you to be on, again that would be a shame but it is what it is.....kindest regards (you can always shoot me an email if you want to explain anything privately).....

***I just re-read the above statements....as I only skimmed over them at first. Jeff is banned for 7 days from today for foul language

perezfan · #90 06-20-2009, 11:17 AM

Sorry you feel that way, Jeffects. I never condemned the Ruth Photo... my implication was that it might well be good. The 3 pieces posted earlier by pscolgrafs speak for themselves, as being garbage. My point was that the authenticator in question gets some right and some wrong. Any average collector could do the same.

I don't have time to look for other bad Garo pieces to post here, and am done with posting on threads like this where name calling and negativity prevail. Have fun, and best of luck with those future investments.

Frank A · #91 06-20-2009, 02:05 PM

The problem is that to much credit is given to any authenticator. An opinoin is absolutely worthless unless you are asking a friend if you sould buy something or not. Authenticators seem to go where the money is. Auction houses etc. Amazing the difference in the autographs in the same auction held by some of these top auction houses that have auto's authenticated by the same person. Like night and day. I truly believe its all a scam. Frank

shimozukawa · #92 06-27-2010, 02:34 PM

.

David Atkatz · #93 06-27-2010, 02:37 PM

He is a fraud. Period.

RichardSimon · #94 06-27-2010, 06:51 PM

The seller of the Picasso won't accept bids from people with zero feedback, yet he has zero feedback.
What a joke that whole auction is.
Jay Leno likes to make jokes about stupid criminals,, this is one for his Monday night monologue.

Vintagedegu · #95 06-27-2010, 07:22 PM

-

ss · #96 06-29-2010, 05:26 AM

It's actually less than 100 per week for 20 years, just to be accurate.

Exhibitman · #97 06-29-2010, 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ss

Another proudly claims to have obtained 100,000 "in person" autographs in 20 year

What he forgot to mention is that he works as a petition-signer-upper in front of the local Costco.

drc · #98 06-30-2010, 01:03 PM

Vintagedegu,

A legitimate appraiser of high end art, ala million dollar Rembrandt, would/should be confident of the authenticity before giving appraisal. Either he/she would be an expert or would get the opinion of a reliable expert. The item may already come with strong documentation and provenance (ala receipt and catalog from purchase at Sotheby's). She may not be personally and financially guaranteeing the authenticity, but she would confident in it. It goes without saying that there is a value difference between original Rembrandt painting and a 1977 copy.

It's in stuff like home appraisal where they won't/can't authenticate the whole contents. A family might own T206s, autographs, lamps, tables and chairs, figurines, game used jersey, inexpensive paintings etc and no one person is an expert in all that. The appraiser just reviews the stuff, look at LOAs and receipts when deemed necessary and gives an overall value. The appraiser is basically an official documenter. Though if, in the process, he comes across something that he knows is fake or a reprint, he will value it at as a fake or a reprint. Just don't expect a home contents appraiser to sit down with a microscope and black light to authenticate each hockey card in Bobby's shoe box, before going off to authenticate mom's antique perfume bottle collection and dad's box of vintage car parts.

I make no comment on the eBay Picasso painting, other than to note is was being sold as "attributed to Picasso" and "this art piece is sold as attributed/manor of Picasso." The seller doesn't say doesn't say it is "by Picasso." It appears even the seller isn't convinced by the accompanying documentation