Poll: response to recent PWCC revelations

[mechanicalman]

Originally Posted by Kenny Cole

Excellent. I will do that. I think you are a moron.

Kenny, how do ad hominem attacks advance your argument?

[Kenny Cole]

Originally Posted by mechanicalman

Kenny, how do ad hominem attacks advance your argument?

They don't. But if you read the posts, I think you might come to the same conclusion.

[Snapolit1]

This reminds me of the news headline we have all seen over and over again....

“Lots of citizens announce they are preparing to move out of the country if _______ elected President”.

Yeah sure. And you know how many of them follow through and move out of the country? None of them.

Huge chasm between the chest thumping of what people say they are going to do and what people eventually end up doing.

[kmac32]

Doesn’t bother me one way or the other. The old addage of buy the card not the holder applies.

[vthobby]

Originally Posted by kmac32

Doesn’t bother me one way or the other. The old addage of buy the card not the holder applies.

If you have been around long enough before the TPGs AND if you have dealt with cards your entire life and have dealt honorably and had an eye for "off" cards then you buy cards in holders that you KNOW are not tampered with. There will be many bargains soon because so many naysayers are scared of everything.

I for one love the fact that folks will boycott certain sellers. More goodies for me.

Show some confidence in your abilities to detect "off" cards. Damn. I've been spotting doctored cards in TPGs for years. Many years before this "storm".

I will say that SGC has always been very good at spotting "off" cards. So have I.

Buy the card, not the holder. Are there any confident collectors left?

Peace, Mike

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by vtgmsc

If you have been around long enough before the TPGs AND if you have dealt with cards your entire life and have dealt honorably and had an eye for "off" cards then you buy cards in holders that you KNOW are not tampered with. There will be many bargains soon because so many naysayers are scared of everything.

I for one love the fact that folks will boycott certain sellers. More goodies for me.

Show some confidence in your abilities to detect "off" cards. Damn. I've been spotting doctored cards in TPGs for years. Many years before this "storm".

I will say that SGC has always been very good at spotting "off" cards. So have I.

Buy the card, not the holder. Are there any confident collectors left?

Peace, Mike

I can detect many off cards, but especially without the ability to see the edges, there is NFW I can detect some of the work of the superstar card doctors, and I am skeptical most people if anybody can. Are you seriously saying that without the before pics you can find the flaws in every card that's been outed on BO?

[Snapolit1]

Maybe I’m a broken down pathetic beyond the pale cynic, but Im guessing there are probably people out there crapping all over PWCC hoping that the nonstop negative publicity has the effect of suppressing interest (and sale prices) in upcoming auctions.

[RedsFan1941]

maybe

[Fballguy]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

Maybe I’m a broken down pathetic beyond the pale cynic, but Im guessing there are probably people out there crapping all over PWCC hoping that the nonstop negative publicity has the effect of suppressing interest (and sale prices) in upcoming auctions.

Fool me once...

It's your money man...Have at it.

[leaflover]

I love dining out and buying Baseball cards.

LA County Health Dept. allows a tolerable amount of rat urine to be on plates in restaurants before closing them down. I still eat out.
PWCC is auctioning over 17,000 cards in their current action. If 17 of those cards have been altered and gotten by the TPGs that is only 1/10th of 1 percent. I'll take my chances and bid.

Like I said I love BB cards and dining out.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by leaflover

I love dining out and buying Baseball cards.

LA County Health Dept. allows a tolerable amount of rat urine to be on plates in restaurants before closing them down. I still eat out.
PWCC is auctioning over 17,000 cards in their current action. If 17 of those cards have been altered and gotten by the TPGs that is only 1/10th of 1 percent. I'll take my chances and bid.

Like I said I love BB cards and dining out.

Mike, have you happened to notice Gary's affinity for 48 Leafs? Just saying. Probably his favorite set.

[irv]

I think anyone who reads my posts knows I was done with PWCC a long time ago.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by leaflover

I love dining out and buying Baseball cards.

LA County Health Dept. allows a tolerable amount of rat urine to be on plates in restaurants before closing them down. I still eat out.
PWCC is auctioning over 17,000 cards in their current action. If 17 of those cards have been altered and gotten by the TPGs that is only 1/10th of 1 percent. I'll take my chances and bid.

Like I said I love BB cards and dining out.

Your analogy would be better if that were even remotely true.

[Bram99]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Your analogy would be better if that were even remotely true.

Here is a morbid and sad story but perhaps better analogy. 25 years ago today Nicole Brown Simpson and Ronald Goldman were brutally killed. I’m now a group of 12 people we’re not able to find OJ guilty.

Some people just refuse to believe in anything they didn’t see happen no matter what the evidence.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Bram99

Here is a morbid and sad story but perhaps better analogy. 25 years ago today Nicole Brown Simpson and Ronald Goldman were brutally killed. I’m now a group of 12 people we’re not able to find OJ guilty.

Some people just refuse to believe in anything they didn’t see happen no matter what the evidence.

I understand where you're going, but the prosecution really screwed up that case.

[leaflover]

Scott,

Years ago I remember reading in the LA Times that Lasorda's Italian Restaurant, in Pasadena, on Fairoaks was shut down for 2 weeks because the rat urine exceeded the allowable levels. I was shocked that there isn't "zero tolerance".

[70ToppsFanatic]

I basically stopped activities with PWCC when the 2016 "buyers group" / shilling issues came to my attention and I received corroboration of what was being done by PWCC.

I can't be 100% sure that I have not purchased anything from them since that time without checking my records, but I am sure I haven't bought anything significant from them.

As for consigning, my last consignment was probably in 2014.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by leaflover

Scott,

Years ago I remember reading in the LA Times that Lasorda's Italian Restaurant, in Pasadena, on Fairoaks was shut down for 2 weeks because the rat urine exceeded the allowable levels. I was shocked that there isn't "zero tolerance".

There is no statute on "Rat Urine" there are rules about some things found IN rat urine (Leptospirosis etc.) and I'll admit I don't know what levels are "acceptable" but it's entirely possible that "allowable levels" are zero in the case of dangerous pathogens that may be found in rat urine and that's just the wording they use. I don't really feel like battering my way through CA restaurant health code to find out, but having worked in kitchens I assure you there is no test for rat urine. It's a myth that gets told about soda cans too.

[MULLINS5]

Some collect cards. Some collect slabs. Pwcc is a great source for slabs. If that's what you're into, it makes perfect sense to continue doing business with them. I get it.

[clydepepper]

This message is to recognize that Peter Spaeth has contributed mightily to this thread...more than any human should be expected to contribute.

He is obviously very passionate about the subject and I do hope that he gets some resolution for his efforts.

That's Peter 46 posts - everyone else - 145.

Totals shared by someone who, evidently, has nothing better to do...which is fairly pathetic.

[JeremyW]

The way I see it is that PWCC has been knowingly selling cards to a known card doctor & then reselling the doctored cards for him, many times over. Somehow PSA is unable to catch this doctoring.

There are people here who could care less.

Do I have that right?

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by JeremyW

The way I see it is that PWCC has been knowingly selling cards to a known card doctor & then reselling the doctored cards for him, many times over. Somehow PSA is unable to catch this doctoring.

There are people here who could care less.

Do I have that right?

in some instances, PWCC_Auctions won cards from Pre_war_card_collector which were then altered and resold I believe.

Also, I feel there is some discrepancy in which Moser's altered cards were actually consigned by him directly, or if they were cards won by Moser at the direction of PWCC to be resold just 3 months later

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by JeremyW

The way I see it is that PWCC has been knowingly selling cards to a known card doctor & then reselling the doctored cards for him, many times over. Somehow PSA is unable to catch this doctoring.

There are people here who could care less.

Do I have that right?

Except you mean couldn't care less

[AustinMike]

I have never consigned anything to PWCC and looking back at my records for the last 4 years, I see that I have only bought from PWCC 4 times in that span. I'm strictly a Mantle, Post cereal collector so there aren't a whole lot of items that I'm interested in.

But, I will not be buying from PWCC anymore. In fact I started yesterday. PWCC had a Mantle item I was interested in and had in my watch list. It ended at a price slightly less than what I would have put in for my maximum. PWCC didn't lose much by me not bidding and I know boycotting them won't have much affect on them.

But, based on the email Peter provided regarding Brent's acknowledgment of Moser and what Moser does to cards plus Brent's attempt to redefine alterations in order to whitewash his activities, my opinion is that Brent is dishonest and I refuse to do business with people that I have reason to believe are dishonest.

[drcy]

I just hope that people here and at the PSA forum who choose to continue buying from PWCC don't come back in the future to complain that they were cheated, scammed or shilled by PWCC or a card they won from PWCC turns out to be deceptively described/identified.

But, of course, I know will happen.

[aloondilana]

The grading companies are the ones who put these trimmed/altered cards back on the street worth several times more.

The grading companies are who we trust and pay money to accurately grade our cards.

PSA should be carrying all the blame here. They have consistently placed these cards into their holders, yet all I'm seeing from PSA is dodging questions and diverting to how they have been the catalyst for eliminating fraud in our hobby.

PSA response has been dog shit! I am convinced there is a shady grader who has been given "envelopes" to grade some of these altered cards.
There really cannot be any other exception.

But to constantly barrage PWCC is ridiculous!

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by aloondilana

The grading companies are the ones who put these trimmed/altered cards back on the street worth several times more.

The grading companies are who we trust and pay money to accurately grade our cards.

PSA should be carrying all the blame here. They have consistently placed these cards into their holders, yet all I'm seeing from PSA is dodging questions and diverting to how they have been the catalyst for eliminating fraud in our hobby.

PSA response has been dog shit! I am convinced there is a shady grader who has been given "envelopes" to grade some of these altered cards.
There really cannot be any other exception.

But to constantly barrage PWCC is ridiculous!

+1

[martyp]

Originally Posted by aloondilana

The grading companies are the ones who put these trimmed/altered cards back on the street worth several times more.

The grading companies are who we trust and pay money to accurately grade our cards.

PSA should be carrying all the blame here. They have consistently placed these cards into their holders, yet all I'm seeing from PSA is dodging questions and diverting to how they have been the catalyst for eliminating fraud in our hobby.

PSA response has been dog shit! I am convinced there is a shady grader who has been given "envelopes" to grade some of these altered cards.
There really cannot be any other exception.

But to constantly barrage PWCC is ridiculous!

Here is an analogy. You are standing outside a 7-11 and hear a gun shot. You then see someone walk out of the store with a gun in one hand and cash in the other. You look inside and see a body on the floor with a hole in their chest. You then look and the person with the gun walks across the street to a gas station. You hear another gun shot. Do you walk away because you did not shoot anyone or do you call the police and tell them what you saw? You have a pretty good idea what happened.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by martyp

Here is an analogy. You are standing outside a 7-11 and hear a gun shot. You then see someone walk out of the store with a gun in one hand and cash in the other. You look inside and see a body on the floor with a hole in their chest. You then look and the person with the gun walks across the street to a gas station. You hear another gun shot. Do you walk away because you did not shoot anyone or do you call the police and tell them what you saw? You have a pretty good idea what happened.

If it were me, my guess would be that someone went inside the 7-11 to rob the place, the but cashier turned the tables, took out his gun and shot the robber. That was the first gun shot that I heard. Then, the cashier in fear and shock, grabbed the money from the register to safeguard it so he could go across the street to the gas station to call the police. That's when I saw him with cash in one hand and a gun in the other. While at the gas station across the street, he stumbled across another robbery in progress, already had his gun in hand, so shot that robber too. That was the second gun shot that I heard. That's just my guess though. I suppose we could speculate all day long about what really happened.

Anybody here remember the Duke Lacrosse case? Those young men were tried and convicted in the court of public opinion by the media and everyone else before they even went to trial. They were vile, filthy, disgusting, racist animals that raped a young black girl. Anybody remember that outcome of that case? If so, please help me out. Refresh my memory if you will.

[darwinbulldog]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

This reminds me of the news headline we have all seen over and over again....

“Lots of citizens announce they are preparing to move out of the country if _______ elected President”.

Yeah sure. And you know how many of them follow through and move out of the country? None of them.

Huge chasm between the chest thumping of what people say they are going to do and what people eventually end up doing.

Certainly true that social desirability effects can significantly sway poll results, but I can attest that in the case of the example you raised, much of it comes down to ability (not that I ever threatened to leave the country if a certain election didn't turn out as I'd hoped, but right after one particular election, and with no vacation plans, my wife and I did go to the trouble of getting passports for all of our kids, including a toddler, and looking for jobs and houses in New Zealand; it just turned out we didn't get any of the jobs that would have allowed us to buy any of the houses, or we'd be there now). Anyway, anyone should be capable of not consigning to or buying from a particular AH.

[SMPEP]

Originally Posted by darwinbulldog

Certainly true that social desirability effects can significantly sway poll results, but I can attest that in the case of the example you raised, much of it comes down to ability (not that I ever threatened to leave the country if a certain election didn't turn out as I'd hoped, but right after one particular election, and with no vacation plans, my wife and I did go to the trouble of getting passports for all of our kids, including a toddler, and looking for jobs and houses in New Zealand; it just turned out we didn't get any of the jobs that would have allowed us to buy any of the houses, or we'd be there now). Anyway, anyone should be capable of not consigning to or buying from a particular AH.

Actually both of my next door neighbors did leave when our current President was elected. In the case of one of them ... it was a loss to our country ... or at least to the number of beautiful and rich women in my neighborhood.

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by Kenny Cole

They don't. But if you read the posts, I think you might come to the same conclusion.

Despite the mob mentality that has taken over this site against PWCC long before this scandal hit, I trust that when most members read your posts and mine it will be clear who lacks intelligence, even if they disagree with my opinion on this issue.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

Despite the mob mentality that has taken over this site against PWCC long before this scandal hit, I trust that when most members read your posts and mine it will be clear who lacks intelligence, even if they disagree with my opinion on this issue.

There is no mob mentality. There are people who are fed up with fraud. Big difference. To try to demean those people by mischaracterizing them as a mob is only to demean yourself. As for Kenny, to suggest he lacks intelligence is beneath you, Jesse.

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

There is no mob mentality. There are people who are fed up with fraud. Big difference. To try to demean those people by mischaracterizing them as a mob is only to demean yourself. As for Kenny, to suggest he lacks intelligence is beneath you, Jesse.

Based on what I've seen over the years well before this scandal I disagree. Anything involving pwcc gets blown out of proportion in my opinion. People seem to enjoy piling on with whatever the current issue is. I do understand why guys are worked up over this scandal. But directing all or most of the anger at pwcc strikes me as a mob mentality.

As for Kenny I have rarely encountered intelligent people who need to resort to calling another person a noron over a difference of opinion. He may be a genius for all I know I don't remember reading any post from him before today. But from this limited sample size I stand by my assessment.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

Based on what I've seen over the years well before this scandal I disagree. Anything involving pwcc gets blown out of proportion in my opinion. People seem to enjoy piling on with whatever the current issue is. I do understand why guys are worked up over this scandal. But directing all or most of the anger at pwcc strikes me as a mob mentality.

As for Kenny I have rarely encountered intelligent people who need to resort to calling another person a noron over a difference of opinion. He may be a genius for all I know I don't remember reading any post from him before today. But from this limited sample size I stand by my assessment.

You obviously are reading threads/posts selectively. There is major anger directed at PSA and Gary and card doctors. And as for PWCC, people are appalled, there is no enjoyment in it whatever and there never has been. Labeling someone you disagree with as a "mob" is a classic tactic of a demagogue but I won't get any more political other than to say read the newspapers. Maybe the reason they have had so many issues over the years is that they were in the wrong.

[SAllen2556]

The problem for me is no matter what corner of the hobby I turn to to buy stuff there's fraud. I've been burned buying at shows, in online auctions, at the National, and from multiple ebay sellers. Fraud in this hobby is EVERYWHERE. It's too easy, and the odds of actually getting caught and going to jail are slim.

What I wonder is how you can be a long time member of this forum, having seen all the fraud over the years with autographs, shill bidding, etc. and STILL participate in it if you're as upset with this latest episode as you claim to be? What's it going to take to finally turn you away? I don't mean this to sound snarky, but, seriously, if this stuff upset me like it seems to upset many of you, I'd go collect barbed wire - people do, you know.

Here's a fun exercise for anyone going to the National this year. Ask for a receipt when you buy something. You'd think something that costs $1000 would at least warrant a receipt, wouldn't you? The answer tells you all you need to know about this hobby.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by SAllen2556

The problem for me is no matter what corner of the hobby I turn to to buy stuff there's fraud. I've been burned buying at shows, in online auctions, at the National, and from multiple ebay sellers. Fraud in this hobby is EVERYWHERE. It's too easy, and the odds of actually getting caught and going to jail are slim.

What I wonder is how you can be a long time member of this forum, having seen all the fraud over the years with autographs, shill bidding, etc. and STILL participate in it if you're as upset with this latest episode as you claim to be? What's it going to take to finally turn you away? I don't mean this to sound snarky, but, seriously, if this stuff upset me like it seems to upset many of you, I'd go collect barbed wire - people do, you know.

Here's a fun exercise for anyone going to the National this year. Ask for a receipt when you buy something. You'd think something that costs $1000 would at least warrant a receipt, wouldn't you? The answer tells you all you need to know about this hobby.

Yes, that does say it all, also if you pay in cash I can give you a discount(wink/wink).

The problem is saying nothing has led us to this point in the hobby. People need to be loud and hopefully get rid of some of the scum in the hobby.

I honestly can't figure out how anyone that loves the hobby can't be happy about having less fraud, unless they are part of it.

As for the poll, I have been avoiding anything PWCC for many many years and see no reason to change now.

[Kenny Cole]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

Despite the mob mentality that has taken over this site against PWCC long before this scandal hit, I trust that when most members read your posts and mine it will be clear who lacks intelligence, even if they disagree with my opinion on this issue.

ROTFL. I guess we will just have to agree to disagree and hopefully never interact again. At this point that would probably be best.