Clemente: Inner circle of the elite, or on his way?

[Exhibitman]

All this WARing and JAWing misses the essence. Clemente isn't a top tier card collecting favorite because of his stats alone, he is at the pinnacle because of the other factors that make his story so compelling and that make people want to have his cards. Clemente was a great ballplayer, but he was an even greater human being. You can fling stats at each other like monkeys slinging poo but it won't change the reality on the ground, which is that if you had a son who said Al Kaline is his role model, you'd say that's nice but if he said Roberto Clemente was his role model you'd be a very proud papa.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Who said Roberto wouldn't have made it to 3500? The responses were to the suggestion he would have ended up as the all time hit leader.

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Who said Roberto wouldn't have made it to 3500? The responses were to the suggestion he would have ended up as the all time hit leader.

You're right, Peter. I misread the comment. I saw it as north to 3,500 hits when it said north of 3,500 hits. I retract my statement.

I don't think there's any way Clemente got close to Cobb. Though he was still an elite player, the years of running and sliding, crashing into walls, making diving plays, etc had started to take a toll. Roberto was still in ridiculous shape though, and with the outfield depth Pittsburgh had, I think he'd have stayed fresh throughout the season. He was still going to be good for 125 games a year, and could play at a high level (.310 + AVG, elite defense. The arm was still pristine). But he wasn't going to get the 200 hits a season that used to be his norm in his prime. Just not enough at bats. But it's not a stretch to see him getting another 500 hits, and raising his career average north of .320.

He also was a good bet to crack the top ten all-time in triples. If my memory serves me correctly, nobody who started their career after WW II has more triples than Clemente's 166. He had a real shot at going over 200.

I'm guessing Roberto would have played another three or four years. I have to assume his overall game does decline some, but there's no reason why he couldn't have been worth 5 WAR a season. Even if he only plays to age 40, 15 WAR puts him right next to Mantle.

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

All this WARing and JAWing misses the essence. Clemente isn't a top tier card collecting favorite because of his stats alone, he is at the pinnacle because of the other factors that make his story so compelling and that make people want to have his cards. Clemente was a great ballplayer, but he was an even greater human being. You can fling stats at each other like monkeys slinging poo but it won't change the reality on the ground, which is that if you had a son who said Al Kaline is his role model, you'd say that's nice but if he said Roberto Clemente was his role model you'd be a very proud papa.

Absolutely, Adam. It's just fun for me, as such a huge Clemente fan, to wonder about what might have been.

I think Clemente's enduring popularity, in baseball circles and within our hobby, is due to a number of factors. Yes, there's the ultimate sacrifice he made in trying to help those earthquake victims in Managua. That was the kind of man Roberto Clemente was. But, I have always chosen to focus on how he lived, and not how he died. He was a man that the Latino community could look to with pride. He was taunted for being both a black man and Hispanic, and his speech was mocked by reporters. Yet he held his head high, and was outspoken for his people. When he won the World Series MVP, he addressed his followers in Spanish on national television. And on the field, he was one of the most exciting men to ever play the game.

Wagner may be the greatest shortstop to ever play the game, but there's absolutely no question that nearly half a century after his death, Roberto Clemente is still the face of the Pittsburgh Pirates franchise.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I saw him play two of the 1971 WS games in Baltimore. As I recall he lit up the place and my Dad, who grew up on DiMaggio and then early Mantle, was very impressed with him.

[71buc]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

All this WARing and JAWing misses the essence. Clemente isn't a top tier card collecting favorite because of his stats alone, he is at the pinnacle because of the other factors that make his story so compelling and that make people want to have his cards. Clemente was a great ballplayer, but he was an even greater human being. You can fling stats at each other like monkeys slinging poo but it won't change the reality on the ground, which is that if you had a son who said Al Kaline is his role model, you'd say that's nice but if he said Roberto Clemente was his role model you'd be a very proud papa.

Well said

[PowderedH2O]

Of course there is no way to know the answer, but would Clemente's cards carry the same values if he had played another 2-3 years, then retired to his home in Puerto Rico and wasn't really visible in the mainland US for the rest of his life? There are dozens of solid Latin American players that go home and do great things in their communities that we never hear about. Clemente might have been one of those.

[packs]

Assuming he would have still been playing, a 1974 and 1975 Topps Clemente card probably would have been a blazer.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I thought about other players whose hobby stature/card values seem to be somewhat disproportionate to their numbers/playing accomplishments. I came up with Maris, Clemente and Jeter as the top three, I guess some would include Jackie. Who else?

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I thought about other players whose hobby stature/card values seem to be somewhat disproportionate to their numbers/playing accomplishments. I came up with Maris, Clemente and Jeter as the top three, I guess some would include Jackie. Who else?

Rose

[PowderedH2O]

Moe Berg would be an obvious one. I even think Thurman Munson's cards are more expensive than they should be.

[Anish]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

All this WARing and JAWing misses the essence. Clemente isn't a top tier card collecting favorite because of his stats alone, he is at the pinnacle because of the other factors that make his story so compelling and that make people want to have his cards. Clemente was a great ballplayer, but he was an even greater human being. You can fling stats at each other like monkeys slinging poo but it won't change the reality on the ground, which is that if you had a son who said Al Kaline is his role model, you'd say that's nice but if he said Roberto Clemente was his role model you'd be a very proud papa.

Umm. Yes. This.

Clemente is an icon who transcends baseball. Great players come and go, but a story like Clemente’s will likely never be replicated.

[Johnny630]

Mantle, Clemente, and Jackie are the 3 most valuable post war players. Not many collectors I know wanna sell their cards of said players, they only want to buy more !

That doesn’t mean they have the best stats or were the best players. We’re they great players? Absolutely.

More importantly when it comes to value is iconic, popularity, and all around amazing character.

People that don’t know jack about baseball know who Jackie, Clemente, and Mantle are when you mention their names. Just as they know Ruth.