Steve M. "jacklitsch" Wrong or Right?

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Posted By: Jim Clarke

Since Steve wanted to go public with a "hypnotically situation" and then tell me he has stuff pasted... I think Will get it out as he will. Hopefully people can see how B/S/T deals can go South quickly with people.

3:08pm JC E-mail sent to see Ullman card back

3:18pm JC E-mail sent to see scan of Back of Rose card

6:30pm Steve's e-mail

JC:

Attached are scans of the back of the Rose Keeler and Ullman McGann.

Note that what may appear to be creases on the stamp box of the Keeler are not. It is the embossing effect of the issue.

I have two other Rose cards Phillippe and Killian. They can be viewed at the link herein provided. The backs are the same as the Keeler

7:41Pm Steve's e-mail

1. pokerstars
2. make up your mind. I'm getting other inquiries on the cards.

8:24pm JC's e-mail

What's the price for the both of the cards? There were some good football games today... Not sure if you follow football

9:31Pm Steve's e-mail

I do follow Football though not rabidly. Here in Chicago we are naturally Bears fans (The Falcons would do good to get Ron Rivera though given a choice I don't think he'd want the job because of that prima donna Vick).

The Keeler is on 24 hour hold so I'll have to get back to you on that one. The Ullman McGann is $500. You might want to look at this link

10:41pm Jc e-mail

Why would it be on hold? I contacted you first and just wanted to se the back? JC

11:31pm Steve's e-mail

The card is on hold because no one has made a commitment to buy it. Requesting a scan is not a commitment. "I will take the card subject to seeing a scan of the back which if clean will confirm the deal" is a commitment that I would honor. Until such time I feel free to entertain any offers or proposals of interest.

One such proposal has been made that I am keenly interested in as it involves a trade for cards high on my want list. I agreed to give the other party time to make scans and present the proposal with greater specificity. If it doesn't work out you are first in line to purchase the card if you make the necessary commitment.

Bottom line, until I get a firm commitment I am a free agent.


12:37am JC e-mail to Steve

Nevermind on any of them... You should have told me this upfront... This was never mentioned. I think Scott B. probably is coming in after the fact.. You should have just told me after someone else came in afterwards. Asking for a scan of the back of a postcard is common and that is part of the dealing... You were in no hurry to do it as you were in the tourney.. I'm OK with that.. But not OK having you buy time to get out of dealing with me for a better offer.... I'm really surprised at you Steve... Finish your deal (if any) with me first and then move down to next e-mail (if a deal is not struck) ... That is how it works unless you are taking offers and the highest bid wins??? I did not see that listed....


The bottom line is that I have spent thousands of dollars with Steve on more than one transaction. I'm a repeat customer that he has known for years. I posted most all of the e-mails less a little "small talk" not related to cards. Because Steve was busy playing cards he did not have time to send a scan of the back right away.. No big deal.. But this allowed more time for another person to enter the deal.. Only after I asked him for the price on both cards together did he inform me one card is on HOLD. I have an issue with his communication. Since he brought it up... It's all out now... I'm sure I could have been more detailed.. But on a simple deal like this, I did not think I had too.. Plus I've not heard anything too bad about Steve before...

JC

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Posted By: Steve M.

Saved me the hassle of having to go through all the emails. That's pretty much the way it went down. Don't see any commitment to buy and isn't that what its really all about.

Steve Murray (jacklitsch)

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Posted By: Steve M.

Just opened an email from JC:

"Why are you being such an ******* Steve? I am completely over it. I think you are rude and very low to even making a topic up like that which does not support what you have done. For a repeat customer, you never told me you were dealing with another person. You waited until I showed interest? I answered you within a proper time frame... Do you want me to go public with all the details????? I have copied and pasted everything as well.. I think more people will think I got the shaft than you. All I did wrong was ask for a scan thinking this would be done in a timely manor. I guess you do not care about our relationship our past dealings as your nice one sentence remark after I told you no more deal after you pulled the Rose card. I thought you had much more class than that... You act like I really missed out on something??? Not really, I already have the same Ullman you were selling but in better condition plus the Rose card would be nice.. But I will not buy a 4 figure item without seeing the back. I thought I've spend good money with you in the past... But I guess you just really do NOT GIVE A ****... Do you?"

Class act

Edited to make the observation that the system must ****** out the foul language.

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Posted By: Cat

I vote: right

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Posted By: Wesley

Steve is in the right here.

First buyer to say "I'll take it" gets the card.

"Please email additional scans" is not equivalent to a firm commitment.

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Posted By: Jim Clarke

Steve your little sarcastic e-mails late last night were recieved but I will not post anymore of this deal, as it is over. Nice writing in the B/S/T thread as well... Whoops I see YOU DELETED the Rose post... Hurry up and delate the Ullman one as well. Don't let people see other little jabs you take... To bad you jsut can't say you messed up and you should have mentioned that another card was in a deal...



Wesly, The problem is the scans did not come over till much later.. He was busy playing Cards. I replied to him shortly after recieving the scan to have him say the card was on "hold". He can sell to whoever he wants.. He could have told me scans will be to me next week and if anyone wanted to buy the card as is without seeing the back then he will sell it. It's part of conmunication. Plus I do not like him making a thread about it on the other deal...Was this to make him feel better about his decision?

Don't think I like doing this post.. But I do NOT like how it went down last night.. ANd I think it was STUPID to post about it tonight.. I hate having my name and putting Steve's name out there... It's like dirty laundry.. But saying you have everything pasted and ready to go.. That's like putting your fist up and saying I dare you to cross the line.. Well here you go.. To bad no one wins...

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Posted By: Joe D.

In my correspondence with both of you.... I can't find a bad thing to say about either one of you.

I would just chalk it up to a misunderstanding / learning experience.

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Posted By: Jeff Mohler

A hearty "amen" to the previous post. Ihave dealt with Steve M only once. However, he sold me a card that I really wanted and below market value at that! I haven't had the pleasure of ever meeting JC, but I understand that he is a stand up guy too. There are enough crooks out there that I hate to see two of the good guys disagreeing!

Jeff

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Posted By: Keith O'Leary

2 good guys, Steve was in the right.

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Posted By: Lee Behrens

Same here 2 good guys, here are my thoughts:

I have had some recent BST efforts that I took in line of how they came in with 4 or 5 interested in the card. After a couple of days of deciding by the first one and declining I offered the card to the others only to find they have interest any longer and did not sell the card. I personnally have gone the way of Steve and the first one to say they are taking the card gets the card.

There are some fishy buyers out there that I think do more trolling than actual buying, that is why I have decided to take the first one to say they want the card.

Lee

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Posted By: warshawlaw

What Would Wapner Do?

He'd rule no contract to purchase had been formed before the time Steve notified you that the card was on hold for someone else.

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Posted By: Brian Weisner

2 good guys with a minor disagreement, let it go, life's too short.

Be well Brian

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Posted By: Tony Andrea

Absolutely no piece of cardboard is worth what's happened here. Brian W. said it best.
"Lifes to short".

Tony Andrea

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Posted By: dan mckee

Nothing but great deals with Steve, one very hard, strongly negotiated but turned out ok deal with JC. After reading this, I can see both sides on this. I agree with JC that asking for a scan, he should be 1st in line until scan is viewed and answer given. I also see Steve's point as well, the vultures attack quickly when you have something desirable up (yes I am one of the vultures usually). I like the majority here, 2 good folk, 1 minor misunderstanding, continue to march. Dan.

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Posted By: T206Collector

...right.

And this should just have been a small misunderstanding.

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Posted By: Jason L

but more importantly, for future use, would the Board agree that the best way to go about this (as a buyer), if you see something you think you really want, is to just say so in the first email, with a condition to see the scans?...I have done this and it has worked well. (e.g. "I want to buy the ___, subject to a review of the back scan. Please send when convenient.")....this, way, the card is yours, with the reservation to decline if you don't like the back, and it will then go to the next person in line to show interest...

seems like the best way...please respond if there is a more preferred/acceptable method.

thanks

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Posted By: barrysloate

A question for JC- if the only issue was whether or not there was writing on the back, why not just ask; and if it is the way you want it, just grab it. While there are two ways to look at this transaction, with such high demand material, why even take the chance of losing it? I would just pounce. How bad could it be- Steve could have given you a fair description of it. If I see something I really want, the more time that goes by, the greater the chance that something may go wrong.

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Posted By: Joe D.

isn't anything a person says that follows the words "subject to" automatically going to throw them behind a person who says "I will take it" without the words "subject to"? Subject to = clause / no matter what the 'subject to' refers to.

My personal preference (as a seller) is to answer the inquiry of whomever contacted first. That person is first in line.

If there are others who posted interest as well, let the first person know they have "X" hours to decide and then it 'may' go to the next person in line. Then let the others in line know that you have given first in line "X" hours to make a decision.


As far as Steve and JC... I see both of their points of view and think they both acted in good faith (but just didn't have the same understanding of the rules of 'order' while they were talking to each other). The different assumptions they both had lead to a misunderstanding.


I hear that when resolving a dispute - if both parties walk away disappointed - it was a good resolution.... so, I think the best solution is for both of them to allow me to choose one item from their collection.

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Posted By: Joann

Jason,

I believe that saying you'll take the card "subject to" doesn't mean the card is yours. If the next person says they'll take the card subject to nothing, I sell it to them. But I am also very clear about this policy in my BST posts. So really, any condition of any kind doesn't hold a spot in line despite including phrases like "I want it" or "I'll take it".

The "subject to" or any other condition means the buyer is not obliging himself to buy, so to me the seller is not obliged to sell. As long as the buyer is reserving for himself the right to not complete the deal, it's hard for me to see how he can expect the seller to be fully committed. Either both parties are committed, or both parties are not. That's just the way it works in my black-and-white little world!

But Steve and JC? Wish there were a way to call it a misunderstanding and put it in the past. Both really seem like such decent people.


Joann

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Posted By: Jason L

good points...the more communication the better, and if the seller states groundrules like this etiquette stuff up front, it will minimize problems, I'm sure...

I suppose the time limit is a good way to go about it, because it helps us imitate the etiquette of in-person behavior...for instance, if at a card show, someone stops at a dealer table, and expresses interest in a card that's in a case, asking to see it and inspect the back, etc...then another person comes up to the table and immediately says, "I'll take that!" as the dealer is getting it out from under the glass...it would not be acceptable etiquette for the dealer to then immediately agree to sell it to this new guy while the first one is standing there (probably getting ready to punch the dealer in the face)
What I have had happen to me as a second arrival, of course, is that I would ask to see it next if the first customer declines purchase

now wait, do you get one piece from EACH person's collection?! I'm going into dispute resolution!

edited to add: Joann, I see your points regarding the black/white issue on the presence of conditions, and would agree, but if not for the issue of how to handle the etiquette of timing...If your posts are clear upfront, as you say, then no worries...guess it all comes down to communication...because the internet dealings and email lend themselves all to well to behaving a little more Machiavelian than a person may ordinarily (I have experienced this temptation myself!)

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Posted By: Dave

IMO the person selling the item basically can do whatever they want with it. Its really not any different than ebay. A seller can end an item whenever...a seller can sell to the second highest bidder...the seller is the one pulling the strings. I dont think anything in this case was done with malicious thoughts. If someone is going to wiggle money in front of your face....so be it.

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Posted By: Cobby33

If someone lists something on eBay with a BIN and a potential buyer asks for a scan without hitting BIN, is there a deal? I think not.

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Posted By: Dave

I think the deal here is....if you can't agree on how things went down, then don't do business with each other again. I'm sure there are plenty of other takers and sellers on both sides.

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Posted By: Jason L

The BIN is a different format, altogther....ask for a scan before you hit the BIN...The BIN isn't a dialogue, it's just a statement

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Posted By: Cobby33

I understand that, but my point is that a firm offer trumps a dialog in any format.

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Posted By: Joe Jones

This is a mostly a Forum of friends! I think the b/s/t transactions should be conducted in a friendly manner. If someone asks me for a back scan from the bst, I always hold the card because I feel it would be the nice thing to do. If they ask for a scan then they are obviously interested in the card.

If it were a transaction outside of the b/s/t with two people I do not know, then I would have handled the situation like Steve did.

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Posted By: E, Daniel

Out of interest, why don't people just post scans of the front and back of the card when listing on BST?
If the scans are available on request, why pussy around and not just put them up for all to see from the beginning.....that way, first come first served.


Daniel

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Posted By: Rick McQuillan

Boy Daniel, you hit the nail on the head. Most of these problems can be avoided by providing scans or a link to scans with the original post. Everyone will know immediately what you have, and all that is needed is an email that says "I will take it!".

Very simple - like me.



Rick

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Posted By: Steve M.

First of all, in my initial post I described the back as clean, not postally used. Mr. Clarke has had enoungh dealings with me involving many thousands of dollars to know that I know how to describe a card.

Second, I did post a scan of the back. Sorry now that I deleted the post as I could give you a better time line of events.

Third, As I have dealt with Mr. Clarke many times over the years I know how he loves to negotiate the beejesus out of these deals and quite honestly I did tell him to make up his mind, as I had other people interested.

Lastly, I was hoping that this post would just fade away but since it keeps cropping up with comments that I do not think are necessarily on point given the facts I decided to speak up.

Steve Murray (jacklitsch)

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Posted By: Jim Clarke

Again to simplify the time line:

3:10 I asked for scans
6:30 Scans were sent.
7:45 Steve wanted to know if I wanted them
8:15 I answered with what is price for BOTH (Big negotiating there)
Then Steve replied back that one was one hold for another person.

So Steve gave me less than 30 minutes to reply back to him. Sorry Steve I do NOT live at my computer and as I told you in an earlier e-mail I was watching football. It is ironic to see Scott B post to you around 7:30 in the B/S/T thread.. Yes I can put 2 and 2 together. I should have told you upon inspection of the back I would take them.. You should have said first come first come first serve and hopefully you did not send scans out to other people first before me.

You should just POST all photos and prices. To eliminate any confusion. I did not want this thread to become a popularity contest where people take sides.. No one wins and I was hoping it would die out as well.

I just did not like you coming public with that "question" on "hypothetical" when this deal went down.. That is classless in my eyes..Just say card is sold and move on without making little comments like (at a great price) and (you had your chance) Now move on..

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Posted By: Steve M.

OK, so you want to keep this going. I'm game. The "Hypothetical" thread was to everyone on this board other than you I guess, just that, a hypothetical. You chose to take it "persoanlly" and "out" yourself as the slug on the other end of the transaction. I was quite content to gather some insight into what others thought I should have or could have done. It wasn't personal, it was you who made it so. Grow up.

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Posted By: Cobby33

Somehow I think that even posting scans won't prohibit disagreements between sellers/buyers/potential buyers. Wonder why?

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Posted By: leon

money .....(and I am as guilty as the next)

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Posted By: Steve M.

money has absolutely NOTHING to do with this transaction. I'm sure Mr. Clarke would have gladly paid the $1,750.00 I was asking for the card. And had he made a commitement I would have been obligated to sell it to him.

What I got out of the deal is far less than $1,750.00!! I needed some zeenuts, ones I needed for my set, and the fellow I traded with had some. I'm sure he would be more than happy to tell you the DEAL he got in this transaction but that's not the point. I could care less about the money, it's the hobby, and my collecting interests.

I resent the implication that money had anything to do with this.

Edited to /s/ Stephen R. Murray (jacklitsch)

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Posted By: Dave

I've never dealt with Jim Clarke first off....I've also never seen anything from him on this board that would scream out he'a a problem guy...as far as I can see he's probably relatively easy to deal with.

As far as Steve, I have dealt with Steve now a few times. Anybody that is going to throw around accusuations that Steve did this or did that for money...I think is a bit out of line. While I'm sure Steve would like to get what he can out of each deal, (hell we all would) I have never seen any evidence of him going over anybody's back for money. I've had a couple different deals with Steve where he has actually come to me on some graded T206's and offered them to me BELOW what the values have been. I'm also witness to Steve out of the goodness of his own heart passing along freebies out of gratitude. So those that think this deal was about money as opposed to just wanting to close an a deal as soon as possible....perhaps you should look at the parties involved a bit closer.

Dave

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Posted By: leon

Resent all you want. My statement wasn't made directly towards you. It is about the money, in the hobby, though...otherwise that thing wouldn't be worth close to $2000.00. If it was $5 we wouldn't be having this discussion, imo. The passion and much of the hobby is driven by money. I don't like it anymore than any other true collector (the only reason I buy and sell). Denying that is naive imo....You are entitled to yours too but my comment wasn't made intentionally at anyone. Cobby asked a question and I answered it.

edited to say...btw Steve, I really didn't mean to offend you so my apologies for that. My statement before really was in general though it was in this thread. Poor timing on my part.

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Posted By: Steve M.

I will. If you want to talk about money start a new thread. Keep it out of this one.

Maybe I should just take a break from you people.

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Posted By: Harry Wallace (HW)

I agree with the previous posters - chalk it up to a misunderstanding and be done with it.

It is not worth creating long term animosity.

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Posted By: Cobby33

"We" resemble the comment about "you people."

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Posted By: Dan Koteles

first person that says, "I do ".Iam not waiting for anyone ever and potentially lose my buyer. It doesnt matter if the 2nd or 3rd guy in is very close to me hobby wise, either. If you ham, haw ,fart... fragabate, etc....it could be gone, i have learned my lesson both ways. WHat is right in our minds, may be wrong to others.....we do not all think the same, i know what is good for me,"SHOW ME THE MONEY !!!

There is no sides here...THIS IS HOW I DO IT !