Question about grading hand cut cards.

[Rookiemonster]

Hey, I just seen a 1960 Hemmets journal Cassius Clay psa 10. I thought that hand cut card DID NOT get grades from psa. It’s a great looking card still little off center. It’s currently at Heritage.


So if you found some old strip cards and had them cut up perfectly then you’ll have a bunch of Cobbs and Ruth’s grade psa 10 ?

I posted it here as I feel it’s a pretty popular card and my main question is about buy and cutting up old cards

[GasHouseGang]

This particular card is discussed at length over on the boxing part of the board. See this thread:

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=249134

The aspects of "hand cut" cards getting graded is also discussed.

[Peter_Spaeth]

It's kind of ridiculous IMO that so much value can be created by how skilled someone is cutting the card from the panel, as opposed to how well the card survived, as well as by the arbitrariness of a 10 over a 9.

https://sports.ha.com/itm/boxing/196...ription-071515

[Rookiemonster]

Originally Posted by GasHouseGang

This particular card is discussed at length over on the boxing part of the board. See this thread:

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=249134

The aspects of "hand cut" cards getting graded is also discussed.

Thank you ! I don’t see anything about the graded 10 example in that thread. Nice sheet peter if I were you I would be looking for a good paper cutter. I also thought it was not allowed By PSA. So now we can say if you have any sheet of cards you can cut them and get them graded into a PSA 10 holder. I know of a few cards that the sheet is way cheaper then the psa 10 example. I guess this could very well be the death of the cut card. Who would want a card cut in the 20s or 60s that won’t grade? I much rather have a more clean and modern cut card right?

[swarmee]

Any cards that were pack-inserted will not be graded by PSA as hand cut, if they can detect the difference. Cards that were on boxes or strips can get number grades as long as you have the entire card, and usually that means all the appropriate borders are visible. To get the highest grades, they should be trimmed evenly as close around the border as possible, and centered.

Don't care? Don't get your cards graded. It's perfectly fine to collect raw. I sent in some 1962 Posts this past submissions and got between PSA 4-6s. That was fine with me. They weren't perfect to begin with, and I'm not collecting the set. I would send any cards in for grading that I wouldn't expect to get a number grade, unless the cards were needed for some other reason.

For my Mantle Master Set Registry, I sent in a couple of trimmed cards, but have no problem getting a PSA AUTH ALTERED designation on them, because they'll count as PSA 1 POORs in the set registry. More important to have the card as a placeholder, than pay 5x as much for one with a solid border. I can always upgrade later.

https://www.psacard.com/resources/gr...andards/#cards
Here's the verbiage you're looking for:

The Grading of Hand-Cut Cards
PSA will grade virtually any card that has been hand-cut off of a panel, box, etc. (Post Cereal, Hostess, Bazooka, Strip cards, etc.) keeping the following information in mind. This service does not include traditional sheet-cut cards. PSA will not grade cards cut from sheets that can be obtained in a normal fashion. For example, PSA will not grade a 1979 O-Pee-Chee Wayne Gretzky card cut from a sheet because that card was issued in non-sheet form. On the other hand, PSA will grade a 1959 Bazooka or 1961 Post Cereal Mickey Mantle because those cards could only be obtained in one fashion - removed by hand from a box or panel.

In order for PSA to actually assign a grade to any of the cards that possess visible/defined borders on all four sides, evidence of that border must be present or the card must exhibit virtually-full borders based on the design of the specific issue. If the cut exceeds the visible border for the card in question, PSA will encapsulate the card as "Authentic" only. If the card is severely undersized and suffers in overall eye appeal, the graders may deem the card not suitable for authentication or reject the card as minimum-sized altogether.

Keep in mind that, for cards that do not possess visible/defined borders, the cards must still fall within a certain size requirement for that particular issue in order to qualify for an actual grade. In other words, the borders must be virtually full in order for a grade to be rendered. Otherwise, as stated above, a label of "Authentic" will be assigned or, in some cases, the cards may fall short of the size requirement altogether. This is not an exact science. PSA will do its best to provide consistent guidelines for these types of cards.

In addition, PSA will allow cards that have had a coupon or tab removed from the original card to be submitted under this service. For example, if a 1952 Red Man Tobacco card is cut at or outside of the established tab line, the card would be eligible to receive a numerical grade. On the other hand, if the 1952 Red Man Tobacco card is cut inside of the line (the line where the tab meets the interior of the card), then the PSA graders will be precluded from entering a numerical grade. Cards that are cut within the limits established for a particular issue will be encapsulated and designated as "authentic" by PSA. All of the cards eligible for this service will be designated as "Hand-Cut" on the PSA label to distinguish them from the intact, "with tab" or "with coupon" examples.

PSA suggests that, in order to achieve the highest grades, the cuts of the cards should be relatively close to the visible borders without exceeding the limit. Cards that exhibit a clean, accurate and properly shaped cut have the best chance at achieving the highest grades. Eye appeal is very important. When it comes to excess paper or cardboard around the edges of the visible borders, the graders will place significant importance on overall eye appeal. Keep in mind that all cards of this type will be designated as "Hand-Cut" on the PSA label for accuracy. In addition, if the customer chooses, PSA will grade and encapsulate entire panels if those panels will fit in any of our current PSA holders. With the exception of the aforementioned items, normal grading criteria will apply.

[Anish]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

It's kind of ridiculous IMO that so much value can be created by how skilled someone is cutting the card from the panel, as opposed to how well the card survived, as well as by the arbitrariness of a 10 over a 9.

https://sports.ha.com/itm/boxing/196...ription-071515

To be fair, how well the sheet survived is still critical. You see Ali sheets with creases and paper loss frequently, but not mint ones.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Anish

To be fair, how well the sheet survived is still critical. You see Ali sheets with creases and paper loss frequently, but not mint ones.

Agreed. But still.

[Rookiemonster]

Thanks Swarmee that’s much more clear and direct. I still don’t like it but hey someone will surely pay up for it.

[T205 GB]

Originally Posted by peter_spaeth

it's kind of ridiculous imo that so much value can be created by how skilled someone is cutting the card from the panel, as opposed to how well the card survived, as well as by the arbitrariness of a 10 over a 9.

https://sports.ha.com/itm/boxing/196...ription-071515

100% +1

[Leon]

Originally Posted by T205 GB

100% +1

I don't think it's as crazy to grade strip cards (with the hand cut caveat) as it is for collectors to pay high prices for them, when they are potentially cut the same day they are graded. Graders can't tell when they were cut. To each their own.
Here is a rant on some strips. When will the TPG's fall in line with reality on W575-1s, W503s and probably some others? They weren't Generally distributed as strips of cards, but are called hand cut when they aren't even close to hand cut. These all have "hand cut" on their SGC flips and not one of them was? In fairness to them they said they would possibly reconsider but why in the world put hand cut there in the first place? They even told me on the phone they knew they weren't hand cut.
What a peeve!!

W575-1s from a Chicago Newspaper and the pack they came in.

[Snapolit1]

Never really understood the argument . . . .

Cut by a machine as intended: good

Cut by a kid 100 years ago as intended: probably ok

Cut by a guy today with a pair scissors as intended: evil, terrible, awful

I know this is a classic debate, rehashed many, many, many times. Too many threads to mention. And I still don't get it. Cards doctored to death, but cutting a strip card along a dotted line is somehow disqualifying.
of a grade to many eyes.

[Leon]

We are talking strip cards not others.
I don't think I am seeing it quite like that. Sure, cards cut by a machine all good.

Cut by a kid 100 yrs ago is hand cut.
Cut by a kid a few hours ago is hand cut.
Who cares if they get graded with the caveat hand cut, I don't? Grading strip cards is fine with that transparency.

Defrauding someone by altering a card (trimming or otherwise) and not mentioning it, not good.

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

Never really understood the argument . . . .

Cut by a machine as intended: good

Cut by a kid 100 years ago as intended: probably ok

Cut by a guy today with a pair scissors as intended: evil, terrible, awful

I know this is a classic debate, rehashed many, many, many times. Too many threads to mention. And I still don't get it. Cards doctored to death, but cutting a strip card along a dotted line is somehow disqualifying.
of a grade to many eyes.

[Rookiemonster]

The Cassius clay card is not even centered well. I get the the card in the top is of this card makes it difficult to cut the top correctly.

I’ve posted about 1977 Topps Walter Payton uncut sheets. This card has a bunch of uncut sheet. It is also a notoriously hard hard to find in top condition. So if someone bought this sheet had it cut perfectly and the other flaws were not present. So the card graded a psa 10 you would be fine with this? Or only if PSA put hand cut on the flip?

[Snapolit1]

Originally Posted by Rookiemonster

The Cassius clay card is not even centered well. I get the the card in the top is of this card makes it difficult to cut the top correctly.

I’ve posted about 1977 Topps Walter Payton uncut sheets. This card has a bunch of uncut sheet. It is also a notoriously hard hard to find in top condition. So if someone bought this sheet had it cut perfectly and the other flaws were not present. So the card graded a psa 10 you would be fine with this? Or only if PSA put hand cut on the flip?

I'd have no issue with it. None. Stupid grading system notwithstanding. Whatever a 9 is supposed to be that fairly meets the standard.

If someone meticulously rebuilds a 1965 Camaro, is it not a 1965 Camaro?

[Rookiemonster]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

I'd have no issue with it. None. Stupid grading system notwithstanding. Whatever a 9 is supposed to be that fairly meets the standard.

If someone meticulously rebuilds a 1965 Camaro, is it not a 1965 Camaro?

It depends did they use new modern parts or original?carmaro engine or Oldsmobile? As I’m sure you know cars and cards are two vastly different things. Restored cards are not the same as original.

The card is graded a 10. Maybe they have 5 more they are waiting to grade and send in.

[Touch'EmAll]

For reasons mentioned here and in other older posts, I simply do not collect them. Let others pull their hair trying to figure it out. I agree, it just seems like too much $ for "hand cut" 8"s thru 10's - I would rather spend elsewhere. If you like them, ok, but proceed with caution.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by 100backstroke

For reasons mentioned here and in other older posts, I simply do not collect them. Let others pull their hair trying to figure it out. I agree, it just seems like too much $ for "hand cut" 8"s thru 10's - I would rather spend elsewhere. If you like them, ok, but proceed with caution.

You could consider collecting raw strip cards instead of graded? Some strips are cool....These have Decalco printed on their side. These would grade about a 1 or AUT hand cut.
Cards are close in size, the scans are off.

[drcy]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

Never really understood the argument . . . .

Cut by a machine as intended: good

Cut by a kid 100 years ago as intended: probably ok

Cut by a guy today with a pair scissors as intended: evil, terrible, awful

I know this is a classic debate, rehashed many, many, many times. Too many threads to mention. And I still don't get it. Cards doctored to death, but cutting a strip card along a dotted line is somehow disqualifying.
of a grade to many eyes.

The cut is part of a card and its manufacture. If the card was cut recently it's not entirely vintage.

I made the same argument about modern card cut from sheets on the CU board (and most agreed with me). The cutting is an integral and necessary part of the single card's manufacture/production, so if the sheet is cut recently the cards are in part recent productions. If you want to label them "Vintage cards recently cut from sheets" that is an accurate description, and collectors can treat them as they wish. If a grader holders recently sheet cut (but not disclosed as recently sheet cut) vintage cards, that is problematic and deceptive. As one particular major grader did (still does?) this, this wasn't a theoretical question.

Also-- and whether for good or ill, I'm not here to debate--, condition is an integral part of a card's value, and it's very easy to get better condition if you're cutting the card recently. At the least, the modern cutting should be (and would be) considered when valuating the grade, because, obviously, it's harder to find mint edges and corners on a 1910 cut card rather than one cut last Tuesday. I won't debate or address here whether a recently cut strip card is good or bad, but that it was cut recently should be disclosed because it influences financial value.

My longtime argument is that if a seller is omitting information because he feels it will lower the sell price, that is information that should be disclosed.

[swarmee]

Originally Posted by Rookiemonster

So if someone bought this sheet had it cut perfectly and the other flaws were not present. So the card graded a psa 10 you would be fine with this? Or only if PSA put hand cut on the flip?

PSA has declared (and holds pretty true) that they won't grade it if it doesn't have a factory original cut. That's why you see so many 1979 Wayne Gretzky cards in BGS holders; they couldn't detect the cut difference between a current cut and a factory cut, so they didn't reject them.

It's also similar that you see so many 1993 SP Jeters in BGS slabs, because PSA rejects many for not being factory cut full size (2.5x3.5) and BGS does not care as much. Many of those cards were cut small by Topps, but shouldn't have been. PSA rejects them, BGS slabs them. PSA has stopped slabbing factory short 1975 Topps mini baseball for the same reason. Those factory sizes were all over the map, but PSA has a minimum size for the issue they'll accept, and all the other ones get returned ungraded.

It's their game, you play by their rules. Once you learn what their rules are, it's not too hard. But again, you don't have to play in their sandbox. There are three grading services, you can take your business to a different one, or you can ignore the grading services.

[Leon]

Case made...The sheet he was on was probably about 100-200 dollars.
I should add, this is more about buyers than grading companies. I would grade them as such too. It's more about the sales side. The whole sheet isn't even a rare sheet to obtain.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1928-W-565-...MAAOSwWxNYqfLT
.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

I'd have no issue with it. None. Stupid grading system notwithstanding. Whatever a 9 is supposed to be that fairly meets the standard.

If someone meticulously rebuilds a 1965 Camaro, is it not a 1965 Camaro?

That would be some trick, or a very special car.

Camaros first year was 1967.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by Leon

Case made...The sheet he was on was probably about 100-200 dollars.
I should add, this is more about buyers than grading companies. I would grade them as such too. It's more about the sales side. The whole sheet isn't even a rare sheet to obtain.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1928-W-565-...MAAOSwWxNYqfLT
.

The sheets are available but cutting them out well is actually challenging. The lines between the individual cards are not straight; you can tell that the paste-up of the original art was made from a bunch of different singles pieced together by hand then screened rather from than a single sheet of images with lines drawn on. I cut down a damaged sheet to get at this card:



I had to carefully calculate how to cut and I had to sacrifice the integrity of neighboring cards to get there.

Fortunately for the baseball cards, they are 'jokers' and were placed on the bottom row of the sheet, so there is only one really hairy cut to make, at the top of the card.

As for hand cutting standards with PSA, I was not aware of them when I sent in this card:



I can probably bust it out and redo the cuts and get the grade up on eye appeal, but I don't care...

As for the overall question of grading cut out cards, it all depends on the item. When the mfg. or publisher intended that the item be cut into cards, I don't think it is right to stigmatize use of the product as intended. Here is the Pac-Man RC as it appeared in the Japanese magazine:



Seems pretty clear to me: labeled as "cards" with separate numbers and backs. Why wouldn't you cut them out? Ditto these, labeled as cards and with dotted lines:



Hector "Macho Man" Camacho's RC.

Now, this kind of thing (A18 album page), I never agreed with cutting out:





But strip cards, hell, they were meant to be cut; were kids really expected to keep an 18 inch long strip of paper?