Closing methods of Mastro Auctions etc......

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Posted By: leon

What are folks thoughts on the way the auction came to an end? Personally I loved it. It was very transparent and easy to see when I could go to sleep. I will post some other winnings soon... regards

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Posted By: john w

I like the 30 minute per lot rule. I agree with the others who see no need for the two-hour extended period.

John

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

I like how Mastro ends because you can see the clock tick down and it's over when it hits zero. I certainly understand that it can frustrate some people who lose their chance at a lot because it's already closed, unlike REA that closes all at once. However, if my memory serves correctly -- and it might not -- didn't REA's clock reach zero many hours before the auction ended last year? I have a recollection that just when I thought the auction was over -- the updated clock on each lot was down to zero -- the auction continued on for hours and hours. If that is the case, is the 30 minute rule not enforced? Or were the clocks just not working? If anyone can confirm my recollection as being accurate, I'll email Rob and find out what's up.

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Posted By: Jeff Prizner

I like it too, no need to keep everyone up until 4:00am.

Someone remind me, does REA close the same way as Mastro or do all the lots get extended whenever there is a bid on any one lot?

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Posted By: Matt

In my mind the ideal auction ending would be similar to what mastro does, with 2 changes:
1) No 2 hour waiting period.
2) Reduce the 30 minutes to something more reasonable - we've been watching the lots for weeks - it doesn't take 30 minutes to decide whether we want to bid again on a lot.

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Posted By: Rob D.

I don't have REA's catalog with me at work (my desk would collapse under its weight), so I checked their Web site for auction rules. Couldn't find any particulars. Anyone?

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Posted By: Wesley

I don't like it. I prefer being able to shift my resources to other lots if I am outbid on my primary lot. With the Mastro's 30 minute each lot closing individually rule, if I get into a bidding war for one lot and ultimately lose, then the other lots will likely be closed already.

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Posted By: Matt

Rob/Jeff P
REA extends whenever a bid is entered on ANY lot.
There is a provision that Rob may decide to end the auction at any time after 11 PM if he decides things are getting out of hand.

edited to remove Jeff ambiguity.

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Posted By: Jay

Mastro's method is the best, hands down.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

No, Matt, I understand that REA has the traditional 30 min rule; but why would the auction not just close when there are simply no more bids for 30 mins, i.e., when the clock reaches zero? If the concern is that the auction could go on for weeks until there are no bids for 30 mins I could understand artificially closing it -- but if the clock hits zero and the auction continues then isn't that clear that there is no need for the auction to remain open?

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Posted By: Matt

Jeff L - I was responding to Jeff P - my bad for not being more specific.

Here's an interesting option that may work for everyone - end it like REA does, but use 10 minute extensions instead of 30 minute extensions.

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Posted By: Anthony N.

Mastro has the best method, by far. I hope everyone else adopts it.
And I"m especially glad they seem to have dropped the set vs. single lot crap.

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Posted By: barrysloate

People are missing something here- since most like Mastro's method of closing, and all who responded are bidders, then I have to think consignors would not be as happy. And that's why I've chosen to leave all lots open until the end, since I am contractually obligated to my consignors. Anything good for a buyer may not be as good for a seller.

I will be reducing my 15 minute clock to a 10 minute one, and finally to a 5 minute one, assuming the software works as it is supposed to. I believe I am the first to try this, so we'll see how it goes.

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Posted By: Matt

Barry - First of all I want to commend you on the decreasing clock that you have implemented. I am confident that it will be a major improvement to auction endings and you will be an example for the other auction houses.

Secondly, I don't think we're missing the consignor part of the equation. As a bidder, the ideal ending for me would be to have a fixed ending time, like on ebay. Of course, that stinks for the consignor, which is why no one suggested that in the thread. Furthermore, I believe the driving force in the above suggestions is not so that we can win lots at a a cheaper price - it's just so that we can get more sleep. I don't see why that would be bad for a consignor.

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Posted By: Mark

It is bad for the consignor because money is very often left on the table. Countless times, I have been outbid on a lot at Mastro, Huggins & Scott or Hunt (Internet/Phone), and cannot switch over to an alternate lot because it has closed.

By keeping the entire auction open (like Lelands, REA, Grey Flannel and Barry are doing) you can turn to a second, third or fourth choice late in the game. I cannot even count the number of items I have won in that manner over the years. If these lots had closed individually, they would have sold for less. Hope that makes sense...

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Posted By: Matt

Barry - it wasn't your computer, it was the Net54 board; it's slowing down very frequently these days

Mark - I understand your point. My motivation had nothing to do with taking money out of the hands of the consignors (and keeping it for myself) it was simply a way to get to bed earlier. I suppose I was more objecting to the postulate that what is good for the bidder is bad for the consignor.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Matt- that's a relief. I have an old computer and I thought it was conking out on me.

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Posted By: JimB

I understand the argument about shifting to choice #2 if I get outbid beyond where I want to go on choice #1, but the Mastro method has simply gotten me to change my bidding style. Now I generally just bid up the lots I am interested in on the last day and if it gets past, which it usually does before the close, then I know to shift to #2. I think this method simply gets people to put their cards on the table at 7pm instead of 4am. As long as the NEVER do the set vs. individual card thing again, which screws up the whole thing, I am all for this method.
JimB

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Posted By: barrysloate

And you are a bidder. Would you feel the same way as a consignor? If someone called you the next day who knew one of your consigned lots and told you he was planning to come back late in the evening and bid on it, but couldn't because it already shut, would you still be for that method of closing?

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Posted By: JimB

Barry,
I think there are more times that I have not bid because I fell asleep than not bid because of the 30 minute rule. I think it about a wash. The all-night thing is potentially a lot worse in an auction with 2000 lots compared to one with 150. But I am also a consignor from time to time, and I would still advocate for this system. I don't see prices realized as being all that low. It seems many were quite strong.
JimB

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Posted By: Matt

Of course the consignor wants the auction open later but there has to be a balance - the logical conclusion of this argument "If someone called you the next day who knew one of your consigned lots and told you he was planning to come back late in the evening and bid on it, but couldn't because it already shut, would you still be for that method of closing?" is to leave auctions open indefinitely. How would you feel as a consignor if someone told you that they were getting their stimulus check in 2 weeks and would use it to bid on your lot, but the auction was already closed? Reductio Ad Absurdum.

I think your new ending format balances the needs nicely and am looking forward to seeing how it goes. I also think that, as JimB pointed out, most people just get their bids in earlier with Mastro's format and that (with some small tweaks) could be an optimal balance as well.

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Posted By: Todd C

I agree with leaving all lots open until the final closing time. As a bidder, it would be nice to switch to other options if I get outbid.

As a new consignor. It would definitely leave money out of my pocket if individual lots are closing when there might be a bid coming because of another lot being outbid.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Jim and others- as you may imagine, I have put a lot of thought into the auction process. And the one thing I agree on that is the worst aspect of all auctions is how late they go. Most people simply can not stay up. Also, there is no incentive for people to bid early. If an auction closes at 6:00 PM for initial bids, but has a history of going late into the night, you can be sure there are people who will wait 6 hours or more before they even think about bidding.

And I believe that is a flaw in the system. Any one of these auction houses could condense that time, most of which is dead air, by implementing some novel ways of closing. I've decided to try the decreasing clock method, since the later an auction goes, the closer a bidder is to his maximums and the less time he will need.

I'm not saying REA or Mastro leave money on the table, as they get phenomenal prices. But some of Mastro's lots undoubtedly have closed before a bidder got to them; and REA's is interminable. Each system has a problem in the way they close.

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Posted By: paulstratton

REA is only once a year and it ends on a Saturday night(allegedly). I don't see the need for any changes on their part.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Just a quick review on how the auction closes: Bidding will continue on all lots after 4:00 PM EDT, but only for those bidders who have previously bid on that very lot. The auction will remain open for bids until approximately fifteen minutes pass without a bid, but as a practical matter, the auction will almost certainly continue for many hours after 4:00 PM EDT. If the auction continues to as late as 11:00 P.M. EDT (which has always been the case in the past), Robert Edward Auctions reserves the right to close the auction, at its sole discretion, at any time. After 11:00 PM EDT, we may close the auction without reference to the fifteen minute rule. We recommend bidders leave maximum left bids utilizing Robert Edward Auctions' "Honest Auto-Bid" system to avoid disappointment. There will be no warning to exactly when we will close the auction should bidding continue past 11:00 P.M. While we do not anticipate the auction to remain open past 2:00 A.M. EDT (technically the morning of May 4, 2008), we cannot make any guarantees. The auction could close earlier or later. Last year the auction closed at 3:00 A.M. After 11:00 PM there is an uncertainty. If you choose to not place a bid after 11:00 PM, you are incurring a risk. This closing system is designed to reward bidders, and eliminate all strategies which needlessly encourage the auction to remain open many hours into the following day for the express purpose of giving an advantage to bidders who have the ability to stay up all night. (Some bidders, if given the opportunity, would repeatedly bid on the smallest value items just to extend the auction, in the hopes that competitors on very significant lots will fall asleep. This closing system takes the power away from bidders who use this strategy.) The auction goes late enough as is. Remember: we are closing 1673 lots in one night. This is far greater number of lots than other auctions utilizing different closing procedures. This system works. It is fair to bidders and fair to consignors. There are only two reasons acceptable to us for a bidder not to win any lot of interest in this auction: 1) You don't want it; or 2) It went too high. When the auction is over, callers will be greeted with a message informing them that the auction is over, and a message will also appear on our website stating that all bidding is closed. All lots remain open for bidding until the close of the entire auction. We won't close the auction until the bidding slows to a virtual halt and all callbacks have been made. All lots are closed simultaneously.

Thank you and Good Luck!
Sincerely,
Robert Edward Auctions, LLC

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Posted By: Matt

Sounds like they're planning on closing it earlier this year then in year's past.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Paul- the fact that REA is only one night a year doesn't change the fact that the final bidding session lasts too long. The last phase begins at 4:00 in the afternoon and ends about twelve hours later. I am willing to bet that some bidders wait nine hours or more after 4:00 to even sit down and start bidding. Why not find a way to improve on this? It's just a matter of a little fine tuning. In every other respect it's always a great auction.

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Posted By: leon

I bid on over 120 lots in Mastro and won about 6-8. There was not ONE single lot that closed without me knowing about it and having an opportunity to bid. I like their way the best....and if I were a consignor, and I have been, I like it too....just one addict's opinion....I refuse to stay up all night.

edited to add...Barry- with the amount of lots you have in your auction the way you do it is fine imo....

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Posted By: paulstratton

I agree Barry, but if you read Jeff's post I think they are trying to deal with the issue. I'm sure next year they will fine tune the closing process even more. Because they only have one auction per year it's a little more difficult to be proactive in this regard.

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Posted By: barrysloate

My guess is as long as bids are coming in they will leave it open. If it's busy at 3:00 AM nobody will shut down the computers.

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Posted By: Kevin Saucier

I for one have had it with Mastro.

Thinking every card has been potentially altered, I refuse to bid on any of them. They have a history full of lies, deceit and corruption.

For some time I have bid on the Americana lots, feeling those where a bit more save. Tonight I learned of Connoisseur Auction Lots. Had a great item picked out and, as normal, let myself get outbid and planned to win in after hours bidding.

I logged on 15 minutes before the extended time only to find out the auction was closed. No overtime for these lots. Maybe I missed something somewhere but when did these rules or auctions change?

Tried to call customer service and nobody answers, a voice message gives you another number...which is yet another message. Of course it offers no information, just leave your message.

They will never see another penny from me!


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www.AlteredCards.com - in-depth education on advanced card doctoring techniques & detection with detailed examples

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Posted By: Mark

Kevin... It's still not over.

Check out Mastro's rules for the Connoisseur Auction. There is NO extended bidding period on 5/2. Mastro took internet bids up until 9:00 PM Central time tonight (Friday) with no extended bidding. Then the Live Auction continues tomorrow (Saturday) with Live Bids on these items.

You can probably still call Mastro to bid live via phone, if you're interested in pursuing a Connoisseur lot. If you are too fed up with them to participate, please just disregard. Although it's a bit confusing, this procedure is spelled out in their "rules" section.

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Posted By: Kevin Saucier

Although it's a bit confusing, this procedure is spelled out in their "rules" section.


Yep and thanks. I read the rules after the fact. Too confusing to continue, plus it seems anyone can bid not just those who placed a bid early. I was under the impression that all Mastro's auctions were the same as they always have been.

ah...I guess I'm just fed up with them and their continuous problems.

Thanks again.

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www.AlteredCards.com - in-depth education on advanced card doctoring techniques & detection with detailed examples

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Posted By: MVSNYC

i really like the way Mastro's ends...

also, for the record, i love their website, watchlist/bidding options, navigation, etc...their overall internet interface is by far, head and shoulders above the rest.

that doesn't mean i always think they have the best material (i think that nod goes to REA), but as far as ease of website usage and the way the auctions ends...Mastro's all the way.

MS

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Posted By: Adam

Here is one thing I liked about Heritage ---

Auction closed last night and when I checked my email this morning, an invoice for what I won was already there (with shipping fees etc.). Very convenient.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Heritage also has monster scans.

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Posted By: JimB

Heritage could stand to make their website more user friendly.
JimB

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Posted By: leon

Jim- It's amazing how often you say the exact words that I think too. Heritage's website is a little too busy for me. I have spoken with my good friend Chris Ivy about it and he says it's what his audience wants and it is tried and true (and award winning). Hey, it's America.....I just wish it were a little less busy. They do have a lot of good features.

One thing I was thinking.....if REA ends the auction whenever they want to then why even have a clock? It might be easier to just say initial bidding ends at xxxx time and they will close it when bidding decreases to a point they feel is sufficient to close. I have to say it's a little disheartening for me to see a clock hit 0 and then the auction continues for xx hours more....Still a great auction, and as I said, I think I have over 50 different bids in....though my funds are a little low at the moment. Maybe Rob will take some cards for payment? (just kidding)

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Leon, I agree. REA's auction is the only one I know that ends when REA determines -- not when the bidders determine. I'm not even sure it can be couched as a traditional auction.

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Posted By: Eric Brehm

Leon -- I agree, that is the same idea I suggested last time this issue was discussed here. Let the auction house close all lots, without warning, when the bidding has reached a sufficiently low rate in their estimation (as opposed to zero bids in fifteen minutes or whatever). That way bidders will have the opportunity to bid on everything they are interested in, there is no eBay-type sniping, and hopefully the auction closes at a decent hour. It sounds like that is essentially what REA is doing this time.

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Posted By: leon

Well...sort of what you said. The only thing is that there is still a fake clock. In Mastro it was really nice to know that when the clock got to 0, and I was high bidder, I won the lot. Period. I don't like arbitrary endings....as a consignor or bidder. That's just me though....Rob is much smarter than I am and I am sure he is doing what he feels is best for his company. It's an interesting debate. regards

edited typo

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

I think Rob is in a tough spot because he has a huge amount of lots and has only one auction a year. If he did a traditional 30 minute rule closing on all lots at once, my guess is his extended period could last a week which is just not feasible.

Closing one at a time would cure this problem but he's made the decision to do all that he can to increase the bidding -- which is great for consignors and not so great for bidders. I suppose in the end an auction house cannot please both sides to this equation.

I suppose my problem with his practice is that the bidder has no idea when the auction ends and is required to monitor the lots without crucial information at his fingertips. Rob's presumed response would be, well, just put in your max bid and you'll be okay in the end. I know I'm not the only bidder, however, who thinks they've put in a max bid -- only to sheepishly realize when that max bid has been topped that a "new" max bid is in order. With an extended bidding period of 12 hours one cannot be on top of this game of musical chairs when the music finally stops. Again, to be fair, I haven't consigned anything to REA and I suppose my feelings would be different if I was a consignor.

Edited to add: exactly, Leon. The bidders should decide when bidding ends not REA. There is just no transparency with the REA system and that frustrates the hell out of me. Perhaps if bidders truly knew that the REA clock running down to zero actually meant zero, they'd toss another bid in to beat the clock. I'm not certain that REA's loose, subjective determination on when to end the auction does max out bids.

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Posted By: Joann

The best idea I heard was awhile ago on this board, in which the time period to pass with no bids gets shorter and shorter so eventually you are down to no bids for two minutes ends the auction. The shorter time to juggle would force people to get really serious about a few lots they really want, and also still allow everyone to have a genuine last shot at the things that are high in priority.

The only other thing that I can think of is to have separate ending times or no-bid extension periods for different categories. When you think about it, why should a guy bidding on a Beatle's album hold open the auction for a 19th Century cabinet card?

It wouldn't take a lot of categories - it could be simple. The current REA is maybe 1700 or so lots. There are 344 autographed items that could all end when no bid has been placed within that category for 15 minutes. Even if all pre-war cards were lumped into one category it is still only 600 or so lots that would end when no bid on pre-war cards for 15 minutes. That's < half of the full 1700.

I suspect that when the end-at-same-time method was devised auctions were much smaller. Maybe they've outgrown that method and divvying up the endings by category gets back to that scale.

J

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Posted By: leon

I still somewhat disagree with your thought that the seemingly endless auction method max's out bidding. Many folks get sleepy and go to bed. I will be. As Jim said (above) the finite ending of Mastro's auction just makes you bid a little differently. It makes you go ahead and play the hand instead of bluffing into the wee hours of the morning. In Mastro I continually scrutinized my lots I was bidding on and placed auto max bids at spots I wanted. When they got blown away I would move to the next one. I really enjoyed it. (OBVIOUSLY WAY TOO MUCH!!)

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Leon, I agree -- I'm not convinced that a subjective end to the auction at no precise time adds to the bottom line. I know it annoys the hell out of me, though.

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Posted By: Eric Brehm

Leon -- I see your point now, that after 11PM, if the house can close the auction without warning due to low bidding activity and the lateness of the hour, the 15 minute clock at that point becomes essentially meaningless. Maybe at that point the house could show the total number of bids received within the current period, with a published rule that the auction will close if less than N bids have been received by the end of the period. Bidders who want to try to win by staying up the latest could still prolong the auction artificially, i.e. to make sure that the number of current bids gets to N, but it would be more difficult than when only one bid in 15 minutes, on any lot, is required to extend the whole blasted thing another period. I don't know if that makes any sense in practice, and it is probably overly complicated, but I'm trying to figure out a way that an auction can end when it is reasonable to end it, without taking anyone by surprise.

I like Joann's idea of dividing larger auctions into categories, which each probably attract different types of collectors, that have their own simultaneous closing rules. That would introduce some complexity into the process, but would probably be workable.