BAD PSA graded Nodgrass

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Posted By: dan mckee

This PSA graded Nodgrass is very obviously no good because of the entire S missing. This card was originally sold by George Hober aka greenhornet on ebay years ago. He was the person doctoring the Nodgrass cards at the time.

REA returned the card to PSA stating it was bad but PSA argued and said they would stand behind it and that any other auction house would sell it.

After being listed as item number 390 in the recent Mastro Auction, I quickly alerted the Mastro Staff of the problem. The card was then removed from the auction.

Let's hope PSA will consider doing the only right thing here and refund the original owner his purchase price for their mistake.

http://www.mastronet.com/index.cfm?action=DisplayContent&ContentName=Lot%20Information&LotIndex=80225&LastLotListing=Lot%20Search%20List&CurrentRow=1


edited to fix link

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Posted By: Matt

nice job Dan!

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Interesting to see that Mastro pulled it even though PSA claims it is ok. Dan, did Mastro tell you that you were the first person that tipped them off to the card being a fake? I thought this was an obvious fake due to the full "S" missing. I wonder if the consignor informed Mastro that REA had rejected the card as a fake first.

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Posted By: barrysloate

I don't think this card is known with a Cycle back. That should be a tip off.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

No partial "S", wrong back. I guess PSA and Mastro missed this one together.

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Posted By: John

Barry you are correct.

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Posted By: DD

We now have a card and a Babe Ruth signed ball that have concerns in this auction. If you have the knowledge, you can determine for yourself if the item is good or not. If you don't have the knowledge, and the experts differ on their opinions, whom do you trust?

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Posted By: MVSNYC

this one was no good, missing the complete "S"...i used to have a real PSA 3 (partial "S")...

good job on Mastro's part to finally pull it.

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Posted By: TODD EVANS

Can someone give me some info on George Hober aka greenhornet that sold cards on Ebay? Was he doctoring cards?

I purchased some very nice raw cards from him several years ago and had them graded by PSA. The cards and their eventual PSA grades were a 1956 Topps Mickey Mantle - PSA 8, 1952 Topps Duke Snider - PSA 8, 1956 Ted Williams - PSA 8 and a 1952 Topps Jackie Jensen - PSA 8. After I purchased these raw cards he just suddenly stopped selling on Ebay under his greenhornet user name.

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Posted By: Matt R

As a guy that got flamed to death and eventually kicked off on the PSA board for being critical of PSA, would it be appropriate if I laughed at this?

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Matt, perhaps your experience occurred because your criticism was made on a PSA-owned board? Just a thought.

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Posted By: Mark B.

Or perhaps it was because Matt asked for an opinion on a GAI graded card that PSA would not cross multiple times for him. Did not like the opinions so Matt got upset (according to his own postings he cried) and took out his agression on PSA and it's board members, which I will note I am one.

Then to show how wrong PSA and BGS (and therefore grading companies in general) is on everything Matt showed a Tony Gwynn RC he had graded that he declared was a gem mint (despite the fact it was off centered and had two soft corners).

Then after more ranting and eventually cussing by Matt, he was kicked off the PSA boards.

You know Matt, I do not know if you were just drunk that week or just emotionally torn up because of the possibly buying an alters Babe Ruth card (with what amounted to 10% of your yearly wages according to one of your postings).

I think most understand your frustration. However, I do not think anyone who read what you wrote would agree, nor do I think you have portrayed history correctly on these boards.

Clear Skies,
Mark

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Posted By: B.C.Daniels

manufactured about 12 of these in one year after no new ones being known for maybe 50 years! Amazing!

BcD

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Posted By: leon

I think we all know that there was some crap going on on the PSA board with Matt and some others. As I have told Matt and a few others he can have a clean slate here on Net54. Please don't continue to bring up the issue from over there on this board as all that does is perpetuate the issue. Let it go. I am not taking sides and if I had to guess there was probably more than 1 party at fault in the whole issue. I am sure Matt said things he shouldn't have and so did others. This is a different forum and I think everyone should be given a chance. Please. Lets get back to collecting cards......take care

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Posted By: dan mckee

I went on a PSA board once when they lost my Magie card. Talk about bad mistakes! I left there in pieces. I should have known better I guess. On the other hand, this board not only helped me through that nightmare, it provided me with excellent legal representation that I am forever grateful for. Dan.

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Posted By: B.C.Daniels

call me! I found that Magie card for you!
it was in the trunk of a car owned by a guy in Torrence Ca!
You'll never believe whose car it was!

BcD

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Posted By: dan mckee

http://www.robertedwardauctions.com/about/interviews.html#SCD

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

I'm sure this post will result in me getting a tongue lashing in this thread from Doug Allen at some point, but I have to ask this question: why did Mastro have a disclaimer at the end of this listing basically putting the blame on PSA in case it was later determined that this Nodgrass card was a fraud (which it was)? I don't remember ever seeing a disclaimer like that on any other PSA-graded card that Mastro has offered in any auction, so why did it put one here -- unless they had prior knowledge that the Nodgrass was a fake?

I know as per Doug I'm supposed to call him directly and get the answer to this question but, as in previous instances, I feel that the question/answer is something that the entire vintage card universe would be interested in. It just stuck out like a sore thumb to me and from what many people have indicated the card was an obvious fake. So just because PSA blessed it, if Mastro has knowledge that the card is a fake why sell it? And why not indicate in the listing that there was at least some controversy over the legitimacy of the card instead of providing an ass-covering disclaimer that does not suggest the card might be fake? And since Mastro pulled it, isn't it assumed that Mastro has acknowledged that they had a lemon with this card -- so when did they first learn that there might be a problem?

I don't mean to single Mastro out (honest) because I think we all know that all auction houses have problem lots occasionally. But I see this and then I see REA's Broad Leaf Elberfeld description in which they note their opinion that the card is trimmed even though PSA clearly didn't think so. And I see REA's descriptions of the Voskamp Wagners -- in which they honestly state that one looks much better than the other despite both having the same grade -- and I wonder why there can't be more tranparency in Mastro. And I'm not saying that Rob Lifson is a saint because I know he's not. But I just feel that with Mastro I occasionally have to read between the lines or keep a sharper eye out because if I'm not careful I'm going to get it between the eyes from them. I know, I know...if I don't like it I don't have to bid in Mastro. But I want to -- I just don't want to always feel that I have to be more careful with them becuase of this sort of BS.

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Posted By: John

Jeff, really good point something just doesn't add up on that, kind of odd IMO.

Also what explanation could there be in the Mastro listing for that extra verbiage at the bottom stating that PSA verified this card several times??

I'm with Jeff why even say that doust thou protest too much comes to mind.

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Posted By: Seth Nagdeman

There was a bad "Nodgrass" on eBay recently with the entire "S" missing:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220220759562

I have only ever seen 2 original Nodgrass variation cards ever.

Seth

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Posted By: Kevin Saucier

Yikes...if you look closely at that ebay card you can see the entire faded "S" is still there.

Very very tough to perfectly remove a letter or partial letter without leaving some type of sign behind. It is usually areas where the ink was removed but the paper stays slightly raised, an indentation, tiny paper loss, sections of disrupted fibers or (as in this case) faint ink pigments.

Typically this type of alteration, when a good job is attempted, takes several days and as much as a dozen steps. Even then, it can potentially be detected (although difficult) if you know exactly what to look for and spend some time with it.


Kevin

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www.AlteredCards.com - in-depth education on advanced card doctoring techniques & detection with detailed examples

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Posted By: dan mckee

Kevin, Hober's Nodgrass cards are so well done that with a 10X magnifier they look great and the paper is not disturbed. You MUST hold the card raw and about a foot away and tilt it under a normal light bulb to see the restoration. You will then see a dull round spot where the S was removed very skillfully.

Seth, I had 2 real ones in my case at Reading, now Huggins owns them.

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Posted By: John

"This item has been examined, reviewed, and affirmed as genuine by PSA; the piece is being described and sold as a "Nodgrass" version on the basis of that company's determination."

Wow, really wish someone from Mastro would explain this to me, and here I thought third party graders were invented to protect collectors etc. or at least that’s the dream that was sold to me. But if you read the above it seems third party grading is a great way to sell questionable lots and keep an arms distance from any buyer recourse...

Really with all the amazing lots these guys sell, and all the income they generate from us collectors (suckers or addicts as my wife says) why even bother taking any chance with any questionable merchandise, let alone this card which lets face it isn't some world class odd ball card that could bring huge money.

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Posted By: JimB

I have what I believe to be real Nodgrass. I will post scans later. It is raw. I bought it in a large lot of T206s years ago. Neither I nor the seller noticed it at the time. There are two small print points on the right side of what would have been the "S". Somebody (presumably in 1910) hand-wrote in the "S" to correct the mistake. WIll post scans tonight. THey are on my home computer and I am at work.
JimB

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Posted By: dan mckee

That is interesting Jim, yes please post scans though I am not sure if we can tell with the handwritten S over the spot. Very cool though, thanks Dan.

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Posted By: dan mckee

Can we get a few PSA cult members to chime in here??? What do you guys think PSA should do here? Should they refund the original buyer or just say "sorry about your luck"?

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Posted By: cmoking

"... here I thought third party graders were invented to protect collectors etc. or at least that’s the dream that was sold to me."

This is really just another episode in a long-running program at PSA, many with the same plot line. Unfortunately, I've watched too many of them in the past couple of years and learned my lesson (wake up Joe O.!). I would not classify all TPGs in the same category though, just because PSA screwed this one up doesn't mean others would have made the same mistake - or wouldn't have.

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Posted By: JimB

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Cool card, Jim. As a tip in the future, try to control yourself with that pen of yours.

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Posted By: JimB

I just couldn't help myself. With Barry's influence, I've become a freak for spelling.
JimB

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Posted By: dan mckee

Jim that is very cool! I am going to go out on a limb here and state that there is just too much of the right side of the S present and that the crease running through wiped out the rest and caused the oldtimer to ink it in. But hey, God knows that I have been wrong before. Dan.

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Posted By: John

Ok wow I can’t believe I’m going here but oh well no turning back now…

But this has really been eating at me for the past few days and not just me quite a few of my collecting pals as well.

So we have grading company’s grade cards to keep us safe from trimmed, altered cards etc. This is to provide a level of trust for the collector; I guess a bad analogy is PSA is like an FDA approval to know that my cough medicine won’t kill me without having to be a chemist etc. Only difference is cards won’t kill me unless my wife finds out how much money I spent.

We also pay a premium for this service not just in grading fees but in the overall price of the cards themselves once graded. So why do we do this?
Look I know it’s impossible to police everything especially in a hobby such as this, but after hearing first hand stories of grading companies bumping cards for big dealers or turning a blind eye on flaws that stuff isn’t really that much of a stretch anymore after seeing the above is it?

I even had my own experience a few years back in which I took a raw card (Cobb Bat Off) purchased on eBay to SGC during my very first Ft. Washington show. It was a super card even a bit oversized SGC proclaimed the card trimmed and explained their position on how they came to the conclusion I agreed then with their assessment and still do. I then took the card three tables down an offered a trimmed card in trade to a dealer for a card I needed. At the time I even offered to pay the cash difference etc. I was being 100% honest, I even handed him the slip from SGC saying trimmed I even went as far to point out the edge in question! The dealer said what an amazing looking card it was it’s a shame it was trimmed I agreed, he then excused himself for a second, 10 mins later he returned with a person wearing a Beckett grading polo they chatted for a bit the dealer turned to me and my wife and said you have a deal. I returned an hour or so later deciding to pick up a another card from the dealer only to see the same polo wearing individual return the trimmed Cobb in its new Beckett (6) holder. I was shocked and the dealer could tell, he turned to me and with a grin said “hey no hard feelings it’s the business besides he owed me one”. I later saw this same card auctioned in a PSA 6 holder on eBay a year later.

Seeing the above Nodgrass deal really hit home not only do we have an obvious fake encapsulated from the industry leader in grading, but we have a disclaimer from arguably the industry leader of auction houses stating in summary that think its fake and will sell it based on another companies opinion regardless of the fact that they themselves question it or have prior knowledge?

Wow at the risk of being disrespectful but WTF!

To me that’s like selling a house you know is riddled with asbestos admitting to the potential home owner in a description that says “older home that has asbestos from report from independent house inspection firm, asbestos is toxic to children, but seeing as no kids have died yet in the home were comfortable selling it to your family” huh?

How nobody has picked up on this is beyond me, I mean with all the discussions here about of altered cards and posts going into triple digits with those threads for nothing more than hearsay at best. Heck we have even had responses from Doug Allen on if he uses his grandmas flatware to “spoon” some real beauties in his free time over at Mastronet (I like to think in his free time he’s a secret agent)..but that’s just me.

However now no hearsay, a real head scratcher is before us that raises all kinds of questions let alone directly involves the integrity of the largest card grading service in the world, the integrity of largest sports auction house in the world and their business relationships with each other and not peep one from anyone from Mastro or even the net54 crew???

I’m shocked at the silence this thing is getting. I wouldn’t care per say if it was a genuine mistake you know fake card got holdered, fake card got pulled next story let’s move on. But that disclaimer is some scary stuff, read it again and let me know if you don’t scratch your head as much as I do?

Once again I would love to have some insight from PSA and Mastro on this one, but I won’t and don’t expect it.

Just a silly collectors thoughts, sorry for the rant.




"Please Note: This item has been examined, reviewed, and affirmed as genuine by PSA; the piece is being described and sold as a "Nodgrass" version on the basis of that company's determination."

Just let that sink in...makes one wonder if they already know or knew something about this lot prior to letting it hit the block, if not then why the legal disclaimer?

**edited to add pic and one liner below pic**

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Posted By: dan mckee

Very well put Mr. John

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

John, don't hold your breath watiting for an explanation.

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Posted By: Kevin Saucier

Well imagine that...I couldn't agree more with what John stated. Talk about hitting the nail on the head!

To think, this is an auction that has been called out. What about those that are ignored completely but are highly questionable? Granted they are scans and difficult or impossible to tell but going through the catalog looking for potentially doctored cards is like finding those hidden items in the old Highlight magazines...here's one, oh here's another.

Aside from the Nodgrass we didn't know about it but will write a specific disclaimer just like we do with every card card, I personally like the "Holy Bat-Ears Batman" Mantle in this auction.

How many times do collectors have to burn themselves before they realize the pan is hot? Ouch, hot. Ouch, hot. Ouch, hot. Ouch, hot. Guess many will never get it.

Wonder if someone here can make a bullet point post about Mastro. Maybe then everyone can see the big picture.


------------------------------

www.AlteredCards.com - in-depth education on advanced card doctoring techniques & detection with detailed examples

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Posted By: John

Jeff, I won’t be but thanks for the advice I agree I’ll be waiting for some time.

Kevin don’t get spoiled will disagree again soon someday, LOL just kidding buddy were on the same page on this one.

Yeah this one is a real mess, how embarrassing yeah you could view it as mistake I guess but I think I can sum it up in an image as I often do, besides saves me typing and Barry correcting me.


Mastronet “Opps our bad it was an accident is swear!”


Customer “So you’re sure you’re a professional and this will protect my health and investment?”

PSA “yeah trust me, I’ve been doing this for weeks”


Moral of the story in the end we all are boobs for letting this stuff slide!

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

John, I called Mastro Monday afternoon to ask about a five-figure card that I thought might have paper loss but was not so indicated in its description; still waiting for a call back. Somehow I suspect that if I'm not getting a response to my question, you won't be hearing anything anytime soon either.

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Posted By: Matt

Jeff - Mastro is just bud at geting back to people - I've been waiting on a few scans for almost 2 weeks. Their loss.

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Posted By: cmoking

"How nobody has picked up on this is beyond me"

Why do you think nobody has picked up on this? Maybe it is just now that you realize what other people already believed.

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Posted By: petecld

Jeff,

Your request came in Monday afternoon. I sent you an email Tuesday morning at 10:22am. Is your email address in our system current? I see it is different from the one you use here.

BTW - The answer is (was) no. There is no surface loss - front or back.

Peter Calderon
Mastro Auctions

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Pete, thanks for the response. No, I didn't get the email but thanks for the info.

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Posted By: Matt

Pete - would it be possible to get the scans I requested? I just sent you an email with the details.

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Posted By: dan mckee

all hope that the ORIGINAL OWNER gets compensated by PSA!!!!!!!!!

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Posted By: dan mckee

This subject is huge. PLEASE let's here from the grading collectors. Should PSA refund or not??

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Posted By: B D

they should not as it would eat into the profit margin and effect the value of my 2 shares of stock!

BcD

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Posted By: Tim Kinserlow

I don't have a horse in this race, but if PSA thinks the card might not haunt them some day, they could be wrong. You would think they would want to buy it back, and put the ordeal to rest.

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Posted By: dan mckee

Brian u r a mess, but I still luv ya.

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Posted By: Brad L.

Can we get a few PSA cult members to chime in here??? What do you guys think PSA should do here? Should they refund the original buyer or just say "sorry about your luck"?

Gee, that's a productive way to put it. Anyway, I think PSA should jump on these situations and fix them as quick as possible. Otherwise the people that may have got a trimmed 1980's common past the graders, along with other "non cult members" (???), have the fuel to blow every little thing out of proportion. I'm not saying this isn't a big deal, but PSA (and every other grading company) needs to make these major mistakes right as quick as possible to make the "not so big" mistakes, that are an inevitable result of human error, appear like what they are, small mistakes.

These mistakes undoubtedly make up a small percentage of cards graded by TPG services, but any one mistake can blow the whole thing out of proportion.

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Posted By: dan mckee

I agree Brad, these mistakes are a small percentage based on the volume they grade. The problem is that there is no one at PSA educated enough in the pre-war field to know any better. Also, I will tell the owner who is out $9500.00 that you don't think this is a big deal.

edited to state that I see Brad states that this may be a big deal but then states that one instance can blow the whole thing out of proportion. You put your trust in a grading service and lose $9500.00, that is a serious proportion I think. At least you do agree that PSA should fix this fast but guess what, they ain't!