WHAT IS THE KEELER ROOKIE

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Posted By: PASJD

Perhaps Andy who seems to have a good relationship would care to relay these as well as MW's: Why to date have you not disclosed to the public your relationship with the "outside conservator" and why does your catalog not include, for each item the conservator "cleaned" or "stabilized," a description of precisely what services were rendered and the extent of them? Has this merely been an oversight? Will you make full disclosure in the future? Are there any other items in the current auction on which similar services were performed? The issue here is not simply what Doug/Mastro consider acceptable (see Doug's email reprinted by Andy) the issue is DISCLOSURE. As any lawyer will tell you, it is deceitful to sell an item while concealing a known, MATERIAL fact. Materiality in legal terms means something a reasonable buyer would consider important to the total mix of available information. In my judgment, what was done to the Keeler was "material" and intuition tells me the same is true with respect to other items. I, and I would guess others, would be quite interested in the response.

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

I certainly agree with you, counselor.

Tell us EVERYTHING ... and then let US decide whether we still want the item or not.



But then again... now that I know these types of incredible restoration techniques are available...

I find it hard to believe that ANY valuable paper artifact has not already been put through this process.



What would stop all of the consignors and individual collectors from having their items restored BEFORE sending them to Mastro, and then not disclosing these facts?

Yeah, I know that they SHOULD do it ... but would they? Doubtful.

So even if Mastro FULLY DISCLOSED whatever work THEY have done to their auction items...

it would just mean that consignors will start having their items restored BEFORE sending them to Mastro, so that Mastro won't know and won't tell.



And unfortunately .. after seeing the "magic" that these professionals were able to do with this Keeler cabinet...

I will NEVER AGAIN be able to look at a vintage item that is in great condition and believe that it has NOT been "restored."

Kind of takes the fun out of it.

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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

I fully understand that for many collectors that it is hard to believe, but some collectors actually prefer a card which is not in pristine condition. I am one who has this preference. The rational which I am comfortable with includes the following observations relative to a worn card:
- the card was really "there","then". It was not accidentally lost right after acquisition, nor put away by a disinterested pack rat. It was handled, perhaps played with and enjoyed by someone from the period of issuance.
- the wear adds character to the card (up to a point). As does the toning.

Sorry, there are not 100 reasons which justify my preference. But for me, these two suffice.

So, to take a card in my preferred condition and alter it to more closely approximate its new condition appearance is a preference which I do not share. But I would never consider making an antique automobile into a hot rod either. But I do enjoy looking at hot rods, just like I enjoy looking at restored cards. I have no desire to own either tho.

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

Me too, Gilbert.

I would rather have a nicer looking card than a totally trashed one...

but only if they are BOTH in their original state.

For example:

There is only ONE example known to exist of the RARE Honus Wagner rookie card -- the 1897 Reccius Wagner card -- and it is in a PSA 1 holder because of some creasing and a small tear.

I would MUCH RATHER own the card in this ORIGINAL condition ... instead of having it "restored" ... but I wouldn't turn it down EITHER way!



Has ANYONE ever seen a "Professionally Restored" T206 Honus Wagner card??

It would sure seem like they could take an old one and "fix it up" real nice...

but I wonder how it would compare value-wise to the "beaten up" ones that are selling regularly for $100,000?

Any thoughts?

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Posted By: PASJD

Well not to open a new can of worms, but certainly rumors abound that the PSA 8 Gretzky-McCall Wagner was trimmed. From what I am told it is "common knowledge" in some circles but of course I have no way of knowing. Hey Hal, I confess, that PSA 7 CJ Wagner I sold you was "cleaned," "stabilized," bleached with a q-tip, and other things too evil to mention. I'll take it back though just to show what a good guy I am.

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Posted By: PASJD

Have similar services been performed on cards that now reside in "slabs" from any of the three major grading companies? And if so, were they informed prior to submission? I don't know PSA's official posture on such things, but something tells me that if that Keeler had been a Cracker Jack Joe Jackson and PSA knew that its appearance had been altered that much, they wouldn't have slabbed it. Just a guess. Well I won't hold my breath expecting truthful answers, but it would be nice to get them.

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Posted By: Peter Thomas

This is all very interesting, but has anyone noticed that this item is beautiful? If everyone wishes to retract their bids I would be delighted to own this beauty for the opening bid.

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Posted By: Kevin Cummings

.......said the blind man as he kissed his pig.

Ethical issues aside, from purely a collecting point of view this all comes down to one's preferences, doesn't it?

As Peter just said, in its current state it is a beautiful looking item and collectors that have no issue with owning a restored card would love to have it (which is why there's no way Peter will be getting it for $300! )

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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

Compared to some hobbies baseball card collecting is in its infancy, while compared to others it is quite sophisticated. I would much rather have our hobby emulate that of philately or numismatics than, for example, comic book collecting.

In the former, there are the purists who prefer their collecting examples in unmodified condition, and those who value their perception of beauty (which is approximating newness at any cost) over originality. I believe that in both of these fields the purists outnumber those with alternate preferences. But there is a market for both preferences.

Which of the following cards do you prefer: a vg/ex card showing wear common to handling, or the same card in vg/ex which is almost new, but accidentally damaged?

Or the damaged card from above fully restored?

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Posted By: PASJD

Gilbert's post demonstrates precisely why DISCLOSURE is so important. We all have different preferences, there are no generally accepted industry standards but rather a whole bunch of gray areas as to which reasonable minds can and do differ, so any seller not out to deceive should disclose the FACTS so each buyer can decide for him or herself whether and how much to bid/pay for an item. A seller who makes a partial disclosure only when pushed to the wall by incontrovertible evidence of before and after photos has not, thus far, impressed me.

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Posted By: DD

I have to disagree with Gilbert about the comic book part of his statement. There are many collectors who enjoy collecting, and actually reading their comics, and give little regard to condition above a certain level.

I collected for many years and was satisfied with copies that were in readable condition, regardless of any imperfections. When you get to the level of investment grade copies, or collecting the best condition examples possible, comics are way beyond the technology of cards.

The one grading company so far, CGC, labels the comics if they have been restored in any manner. It is not clear to me why if a multiple page comic book can be scrutinized, cover to cover, for signs of restoration, why a small baseball card cannot be, IMHO.

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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

Upon re-reading my previous post, I can understand why anyone would think that I feel comic book collecting is a hobby of less stature than other collectibles. I certainly do not feel this way at all.

I do not have any interest in comic books, stamps, matchbooks, cigar bands, bottle caps and many other things. But I do not feel that the collection of these items are of different significance - heck, I think it is all trivial, and mainly for fun.

One thing about comic books, tho. The encapsulation of these uniquely renders them less enjoyable (in my outsiders view) since you can no longer read them. Whats up with that?

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Posted By: warshawlaw

is why anyone would want a comic book in a slab. How can you read it?

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Posted By: Scott

Scott, I'm sorry but if I had to believe one or the other, Doug wins hands-down. The reasons are simple - you have admitted that you can't remember much of what is said to you, or that you say - a real good reason for others to be skeptical of your claims. Your posts are usually rambling and undecipherable, so I normally don't respond to them, even if I have a good guess as to the point you are trying to make. I made an exception this time because of your ridiculous comparison of this situation to your buddy's, and then your follow-up foggy accusations against Mastro. This is a thread you should have sat out.

If you intend to attempt any more wit directed at me, you might want to send an email - I have no intention of opening this ridiculous thread again.

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Posted By: Scott

...prior to my exit (from this thread only don't get your hopes up!)

Scott, it's not that I don't trust you - I can't recall you ever lying about anything, and I wouldn't expect that. If you re-read my posts, you will see that I simply think you are a confused individual who needs to re-read his posts very carefully before submitting them.

As far as your references to my kissing Jay's *ss, you obviously haven't followed any of my past posting "discussions" with him, including the most obvious first response to this thread - go back and re-read that one and tell me what an ass-kisser I am. I had a phone conversation with Jay after that initial post, in which he explained what happened, as he has since done in this thread. You've ignored all that and gone off on your own blurry agenda.

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Posted By: DD

I agree about the slabbing of comics. It is done for profit and investment, and also to protect them from the elements. My other point, and I wish someone would respond about it, is how can CGC spot restoration, and card graders either cannot, or will not?

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Posted By: jay behrens

SGC is part of the parent company that owns CGC also. I never understood why they could slab cards and label them the same way they do comics. Green labels for unaltered cards, red (or some other color) for altered cards, with notes as to the alterations. Given the small size of card slabs, they could simpley have a numerical code and youc ould check these codes on their website.

My personal preference would be full disclosure as to why the card got a given grade regardless if it is altered or not. They put this on the website too. Just punch in the card ID number and you could get the info. I'd be willing to pay a little extra to ahve this info available.

Jay- Just trying to help this become the new record thread


The difference between genius and insanity is acceptance.

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Posted By: PASJD

I may be wrong about comics but I think the difference may be that comic book restoration is not done with the intent of deceiving anyone, whereas (at least some) baseball card restoration is done with that intent and some practitioners are good enough to escape detection. I recall the chilling words from the article about "Daniel Paul" in 1996, wherein he stated (in substance) that really good restoration could not be detected. And one can only presume the art form has improved in the past 8 years.

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Posted By: jay behrens

comic restoration is done to decieve too. It's jsut harder to pass them off now since resotred copies are slabbed and anyone spending money on highgrade examples isn't going to leave the huge sums of money behind that grading a nice clean raw example would bring. Raw, high grade examples are very suspect.

Jay

The difference between genius and insanity is acceptance.

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Posted By: Julie

biggest sports auction house in the country routinely asks
consignors whether they can do a bit of cleaning and, er, mending to their offerings, doesn't charge for THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS worth of work, and then offers them to the public with a MINIMAL explanation of what has been done ("
pinholes--relegated to the corners--filled in" "cleaned")
Thousands of dollars?
The first 19th century photo I ever got--I broke in two pieces, opening. I didn't think that a mounted 19th century photo would be fragile. I was an idiot. With help, I found a reputable restorer, and we agreed that he should put the photo back together, with no attempt to hide the break, and with no use of new materials. This cost $300. The photo is probably no longer salable--which is the way i wanted it. (Seth, you have no IDEA how sorry I am...)The break is really more obvious--my old scanner was very flattering.<br

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Posted By: MW

Has anyone received any correspondence from Doug Allen/Mastro concerning the questions posed by Hal, PASJD or me?

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Posted By: hankron

When I was moving once, I dropped some stuff off at my parent's including a 1800s Sweet Caporal die-cut cardboard sign of a soldier with a small die cut tassle on the of his helmet. When I went to my parents to pick stuff up, my mom said that she had dropped the sign and the tassle broke off, but, not to worry, she had glued it back on with elmer's glue. She did a good job too, and most collectors would never notice.

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Posted By: hankron

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Posted By: hankron

I once gave my mom a 1800s William Hogarth (British artist/painter) engraving about the size of a Harper's woodcut. A few days later I was visiting her and saw that she had the print sitting on a table next a much narrower frame.

I said, "Is this the frame you're goint to be using? The print will never fit in there."
She said, "I know. I'm going to cut down the print so it fits."

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Posted By: Joe P.

Julie:
Joe P, how can you say there's "hope for the hobby"
*
*
Big Julie please re read my post.
The hope is based on the questions being asked.
Here at Slab Haven, that's considered to be a Giant step forward.

Oh yes, I was just told to remind some of you.

Not to forget to leave your offerings at the Temple of the Gods on Mt. Olympus.

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Posted By: Scott Elkins

Well, I can tell from your next to last post that YOU are a liar (since you did post again - within seconds, after stating you would NOT)! Also, I have come to the conclusion that the SEVERAL people who have e-mailed me telling me what an idiot you are surely KNOW what they are talking about!

I do not see how you would believe Doug Allen over me hands down. Sure - I admitted I could not remember every detail of my conversation with Doug. I DO remember him saying the cleaning process would involve a Q-Tip and Bleach. Doug FIRST stated he did not remember the card being cleaned at all. He THEN stated in another, later e-mail to me that Mastronet DEFINITELY did "clean" the Red Cross card. BOTH of these e-mails are posted above, if you have the intelligence to find them (which you should have done before making your last two posts). After reading the e-mails I posted on here, anyone with an IQ above 5 (moron) would believe me over Doug as to who remembered the most regarding the Red Cross card and our conversation. Afterall, Doug sees thousands of cards - that card was MINE (I would definitely remember more about it and the details involved than someone who only considered it a lot #)!

P.S. I will not lie, as ruscott did. This will probably not be my last post. It will however, if runscott will quit lying and trying to turn around what I posted - maybe he needs to watch the FACTOR and their "No-Spin" Zone?????

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Posted By: al davis

actually, the intelligence quota scale rates a moron as between 50-69, an imbecile between 30-49, and an idiot below 29. i hope this has been helpful.

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Posted By: Richard Masson

It is typical of comics to be "cleaned and pressed" and this is not generally regarded as being restored. Restoration is when colors are touched up, pieces are added, tears are repaired, new staples used, etc. It is accepted practice because it is important for the comic to survive and not deteriorate further. Restoration can usually be easily identified using a black light and a magnifying glass. The high grade unrestored books are few for most of the key books and all the dealers know which copies are which and who owns them. In fact they are called by name; e.g.,"Mile High", "San Francisco", "Lawson", "Chicago","D collection", depending on their provenance.

Why anyone would want one in a slab is beyond me too.

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Posted By: Judge Dred

Final hammer - $5032 (including juice).