NonSports Forum

Net54baseball.com
Welcome to Net54baseball.com. These forums are devoted to both Pre- and Post- war baseball cards and vintage memorabilia, as well as other sports. There is a separate section for Buying, Selling and Trading - the B/S/T area!! If you give an opinion of a person or company your full name needs to be in your post. Contact the moderator at leon@net54baseball.com should you have any questions or concerns. Enjoy!
Net54baseball.com
Net54baseball.com
ebay GSB
T206s on Ebay
Pre-WWII Cards
Post WWII Cards
Vintage Memorabilia
Babe Ruth Cards
Ty Cobb Cards
Lou Gehrig Cards
Mickey Mantle Cards
Goudey Cards
Bowman Cards
T205s on Ebay
Tobacco "T" Cards
Caramel "E" Cards
Vintage Baseball Postcards
Football Cards on Ebay
Exhibit Cards
Strip Cards
Baking Cards
Sporting News
Playball Cards on Ebay

Go Back   Net54baseball.com Forums > Net54baseball Main Forum - WWII & Older Baseball Cards > Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 06-24-2016, 03:22 PM
Peter_Spaeth's Avatar
Peter_Spaeth Peter_Spaeth is offline
Peter Spaeth
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 16,943
Default Is "market pushing" ethical or not?

My understanding is that there are some well-to-do individuals who wish to increase the value of their portfolios of high end cards (one could use the euphemism "protect their investment" but it's more than that), and more generally to foster an environment where at least at the high end cards are perceived as investment-quality goods. One of the ways they are trying to accomplish this is to try to “push” the prices of big ticket items both on ebay and in catalog auctions such as Heritage, etc. On ebay, at least, where one has some visibility into bidding histories, one can see that their M.O. is to very aggressively bid up ongoing auctions, trying to find the top and hoping to push others to bid higher. Thus, one sees many of these high ticket auctions where the bidding history reveals that the same underbidder has placed a very high number of bids, most of them consecutive, but stops short of taking the lead. Other times, of course, the "pusher" will take the lead and even win the item.

I have communicated with PWCC about this. Brent informs me that he has three rules in place to address what clearly is happening in today's market. One, a bidder cannot bid on items he has consigned. Two, a bidder cannot retract if he does cross the threshold and become the high bidder. Three, a winning bidder must pay.

So my question for the group is whether this activity by the "pushers" in the context of Brent's rules (I don't know what rules others may have) is an unethical variant of shill bidding, or just aggressive but ethical conduct. The argument for it being unethical of course is that the "pushers" are not bidding (at least in many cases) in an effort to win items but rather with the goal of increasing the price someone else pays, in order to protect their investments/drive the market higher. And almost certainly, people are paying higher prices than they would in the absence of these bids, which is the quintessential concern about shill bidding. Not to mention overall market and trickle down effects. (Yeah, I am not neutral here.) On the other hand, assuming Brent's rules are followed, people are not retracting to discover high bids, are paying if they win, and are not running up their own cards which of course is the more traditional shill bidding situation.

An interesting issue and one on which I suspect there will be a variety of opinions.

Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 06-24-2016 at 03:24 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 06-24-2016, 03:26 PM
Peter_Spaeth's Avatar
Peter_Spaeth Peter_Spaeth is offline
Peter Spaeth
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 16,943
Default

Here is an example from a still-active auction to illustrate my point. It is anything but isolated, by the way.

Member Id: u***s( 513Feedback score is 500 to 999) US $45,000.00
Jun-23-16 20:05:44 PDT

Member Id: a***t( 1309Feedback score is 1000 to 4,999) US $44,905.00
Jun-23-16 20:11:01 PDT

Member Id: a***t( 1309Feedback score is 1000 to 4,999) US $44,550.00
Jun-23-16 20:10:52 PDT

Member Id: a***t( 1309Feedback score is 1000 to 4,999) US $44,250.00
Jun-23-16 20:10:49 PDT

Member Id: a***t( 1309Feedback score is 1000 to 4,999) US $43,950.00
Jun-23-16 20:10:46 PDT

Member Id: a***t( 1309Feedback score is 1000 to 4,999) US $43,550.00
Jun-23-16 20:10:40 PDT

Member Id: a***t( 1309Feedback score is 1000 to 4,999) US $43,250.00
Jun-23-16 20:10:35 PDT

Member Id: a***t( 1309Feedback score is 1000 to 4,999) US $42,950.00
Jun-23-16 20:10:31 PDT

Member Id: a***t( 1309Feedback score is 1000 to 4,999) US $42,550.00
Jun-23-16 20:10:26 PDT

Member Id: a***t( 1309Feedback score is 1000 to 4,999) US $42,250.00
Jun-23-16 20:10:23 PDT

Member Id: a***t( 1309Feedback score is 1000 to 4,999) US $41,950.00
Jun-23-16 20:10:20 PDT

Member Id: a***t( 1309Feedback score is 1000 to 4,999) US $41,550.00
Jun-23-16 20:10:10 PDT

Member Id: a***t( 1309Feedback score is 1000 to 4,999) US $41,250.00
Jun-23-16 20:10:03 PDT

Member Id: a***t( 1309Feedback score is 1000 to 4,999) US $40,950.00
Jun-23-16 20:09:58 PDT

Member Id: a***t( 1309Feedback score is 1000 to 4,999) US $40,550.00
Jun-23-16 20:09:52 PDT

Member Id: a***t( 1309Feedback score is 1000 to 4,999) US $39,950.00
Jun-23-16 20:07:28 PDT

Member Id: a***t( 1309Feedback score is 1000 to 4,999) US $39,000.00
Jun-23-16 20:07:23 PDT

Member Id: a***t( 1309Feedback score is 1000 to 4,999) US $38,000.00
Jun-23-16 20:07:18 PDT

Member Id: a***t( 1309Feedback score is 1000 to 4,999) US $37,000.00
Jun-23-16 20:07:14 PDT

Member Id: a***t( 1309Feedback score is 1000 to 4,999) US $36,000.00
Jun-23-16 20:07:09 PDT

Member Id: a***t( 1309Feedback score is 1000 to 4,999) US $35,100.00
Jun-23-16 18:27:46 PDT

Member Id: u***s( 513Feedback score is 500 to 999) US $35,000.00
Jun-17-16 16:09:12 PDT

Member Id: a***t( 1309Feedback score is 1000 to 4,999) US $34,950.00
Jun-17-16 16:11:46 PDT

Member Id: a***t( 1309Feedback score is 1000 to 4,999) US $34,000.00
Jun-17-16 16:11:41 PDT

Member Id: a***t( 1309Feedback score is 1000 to 4,999) US $33,000.00
Jun-17-16 16:11:36 PDT

Member Id: a***t( 1309Feedback score is 1000 to 4,999) US $32,000.00
Jun-17-16 16:11:31 PDT

Member Id: a***t( 1309Feedback score is 1000 to 4,999) US $31,000.00
Jun-17-16 16:11:23 PDT

Member Id: a***t( 1309Feedback score is 1000 to 4,999) US $29,900.00
Jun-17-16 14:52:54 PDT

Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 06-24-2016 at 03:53 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 06-24-2016, 03:27 PM
1952boyntoncollector 1952boyntoncollector is offline
ja.ke liebe.rman
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: http://www.psacard.com/PSASetRegistry/alltimeset.aspx?s=175000&ac=1
Posts: 4,388
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
My understanding is that there are some well-to-do individuals who wish to increase the value of their portfolios of high end cards (one could use the euphemism "protect their investment" but it's more than that), and more generally to foster an environment where at least at the high end cards are perceived as investment-quality goods. One of the ways they are trying to accomplish this is to try to “push” the prices of big ticket items both on ebay and in catalog auctions such as Heritage, etc. On ebay, at least, where one has some visibility into bidding histories, one can see that their M.O. is to very aggressively bid up ongoing auctions, trying to find the top and hoping to push others to bid higher. Thus, one sees many of these high ticket auctions where the bidding history reveals that the same underbidder has placed a very high number of bids, most of them consecutive, but stops short of taking the lead. Other times, of course, the "pusher" will take the lead and even win the item.

I have communicated with PWCC about this. Brent informs me that he has three rules in place to address what clearly is happening in today's market. One, a bidder cannot bid on items he has consigned. Two, a bidder cannot retract if he does cross the threshold and become the high bidder. Three, a winning bidder must pay.

So my question for the group is whether this activity by the "pushers" in the context of Brent's rules (I don't know what rules others may have) is an unethical variant of shill bidding, or just aggressive but ethical conduct. The argument for it being unethical of course is that the "pushers" are not bidding (at least in many cases) in an effort to win items but rather with the goal of increasing the price someone else pays, in order to protect their investments/drive the market higher. And almost certainly, people are paying higher prices than they would in the absence of these bids, which is the quintessential concern about shill bidding. Not to mention overall market and trickle down effects. (Yeah, I am not neutral here.) On the other hand, assuming Brent's rules are followed, people are not retracting to discover high bids, are paying if they win, and are not running up their own cards which of course is the more traditional shill bidding situation.

An interesting issue and one on which I suspect there will be a variety of opinions.
As long as whoever bids is prepared to pay for the item with their bid and pay and the seller will have to pay the fee...i dont care...the issue of unethical to me is when the seller doesnt have to pay the fee for the 'win'.

people will stop bidding or have people stop bidding on their items real fast when they have to pay a $500 fee for example on winning their own card for $5000......so now they would need $5500 just to break even on it

Last edited by 1952boyntoncollector; 06-24-2016 at 03:28 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 06-24-2016, 03:28 PM
glchen's Avatar
glchen glchen is offline
_G@ґy*€hℯη_
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 2,526
Default

As long as there is no shilling is going on, and the prices are "real," then I have no problem with market pushing. By "real," I am saying that the winning bidder did pay for the item (including BP, if there was one), and it wasn't some sort of fake scenario where one friend "bought" a card from another friend and "paid" him that winning bid, and then that card was "bought" back (e.g., shenanigans like that). If the market prices are genuine, then I have no problems with this market pushing. Sooner or later, those people who are trying to "protect" their investment will find out there are too many cards to buy, and then when they try to unload their investment, find out there are no buyers at the prices they want.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 06-24-2016, 03:32 PM
Peter_Spaeth's Avatar
Peter_Spaeth Peter_Spaeth is offline
Peter Spaeth
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 16,943
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by glchen View Post
As long as there is no shilling is going on, and the prices are "real," then I have no problem with market pushing. By "real," I am saying that the winning bidder did pay for the item (including BP, if there was one), and it wasn't some sort of fake scenario where one friend "bought" a card from another friend and "paid" him that winning bid, and then that card was "bought" back (e.g., shenanigans like that). If the market prices are genuine, then I have no problems with this market pushing. Sooner or later, those people who are trying to "protect" their investment will find out there are too many cards to buy, and then when they try to unload their investment, find out there are no buyers at the prices they want.
Define a "genuine" market price. In Mastro the government defined it as the price that would have prevailed in the absence of bids made for a purpose other than winning. Not the price one guy was willing to pay. At least that's my understanding.

Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 06-24-2016 at 03:32 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 06-24-2016, 03:40 PM
PM770's Avatar
PM770 PM770 is offline
Pa.ul Mat.is.ak
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Ohio
Posts: 267
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
Define a "genuine" market price. In Mastro the government defined it as the price that would have prevailed in the absence of bids made for a purpose other than winning. Not the price one guy was willing to pay. At least that's my understanding.
This seems like a great point. Its still shilling if your intention is to just drive up a price, even if it is not your specific card.

I'm assuming in the example provided, that the bid increment was $100 at that level so the underbidder knew he had pushed it to a max.

I'm also curious as to how PWCC can disallow bid retractions. Isn't that governed by ebay? Can a seller set up a listing that doesn't allow bid retractions?
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 06-24-2016, 03:42 PM
Peter_Spaeth's Avatar
Peter_Spaeth Peter_Spaeth is offline
Peter Spaeth
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 16,943
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by PM770 View Post
This seems like a great point. Its still shilling if your intention is to just drive up a price, even if it is not your specific card.

I'm assuming in the example provided, that the bid increment was $100 at that level so the underbidder knew he had pushed it to a max.

I'm also curious as to how PWCC can disallow bid retractions. Isn't that governed by ebay? Can a seller set up a listing that doesn't allow bid retractions?
I don't speak for Brent, but my understanding is that he will suspend bidders who retract without a good explanation.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 06-24-2016, 04:17 PM
botn botn is offline
Greg Schwartz
Banned
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,219
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post

I have communicated with PWCC about this. Brent informs me that he has three rules in place to address what clearly is happening in today's market. One, a bidder cannot bid on items he has consigned. Two, a bidder cannot retract if he does cross the threshold and become the high bidder. Three, a winning bidder must pay.
Brent needs to define what he means by a bidder cannot bid on items he has consigned. How is he able to discourage that or even stop it? What about a bidder's BFF? So I have my doubts id rule one is adhered to. As to rule 2 only he would know if the massive volume of retractions are being done by the consignor (see question as to rule #1). As to rule 3, only Brent would know if items are all actually being paid for.

With that said, the government made their whole case against Mastro Auctions based on the sheer volume of shill bids permitted to be placed by consignors or consignors friends and families. It was not so much that the house was doing it but that they permitted "artificial" bids to be placed. Bill is in prison for this. Doug is going shortly and possibly Mark and countless others dropped considerable amount of cash having to lawyer up so they did not end up in the same place.

I would say Brent is in a pretty dangerous spot should the feds read this and decide to take a look around. This might be a great time to lose one's hard drives and back ups.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 06-24-2016, 04:26 PM
glchen's Avatar
glchen glchen is offline
_G@ґy*€hℯη_
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 2,526
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
Define a "genuine" market price. In Mastro the government defined it as the price that would have prevailed in the absence of bids made for a purpose other than winning. Not the price one guy was willing to pay. At least that's my understanding.
Peter, for my definition, a "genuine" market price was obtain in the absence of any shill bids. So as in the government's definition, even if the high bidder's max bid was legitimate, that is not a genuine market price if he were shilled up.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 06-24-2016, 04:29 PM
Peter_Spaeth's Avatar
Peter_Spaeth Peter_Spaeth is offline
Peter Spaeth
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 16,943
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by glchen View Post
Peter, for my definition, a "genuine" market price was obtain in the absence of any shill bids. So as in the government's definition, even if the high bidder's max bid was legitimate, that is not a genuine market price if he were shilled up.
So why is it legitimate here, where bids are placed with the intent only of driving up the price? I am missing your point. In both situations the price seems manipulated to me, in one case by the consignor, in the other case by someone trying to protect their investments/push prices higher but not with the goal of winning the auction at the lowest possible price. which is of course what legitimate bidders do.

Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 06-24-2016 at 04:32 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 06-24-2016, 04:46 PM
glchen's Avatar
glchen glchen is offline
_G@ґy*€hℯη_
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 2,526
Default

Peter, to me this is like a country trying to prop up its currency against hedge funds. You can keep buying and buying, but sooner or later, someone is going to blink. Usually the country. As long as the market is legitimate, it's all good to me.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 06-24-2016, 04:47 PM
ezez420 ezez420 is offline
Ed
Ed DeS.erio
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,149
Default

When they read or when they act on what they read. Good post Peter.


QUOTE=botn;1554461]Brent needs to define what he means by a bidder cannot bid on items he has consigned. How is he able to discourage that or even stop it? What about a bidder's BFF? So I have my doubts id rule one is adhered to. As to rule 2 only he would know if the massive volume of retractions are being done by the consignor (see question as to rule #1). As to rule 3, only Brent would know if items are all actually being paid for.

With that said, the government made their whole case against Mastro Auctions based on the sheer volume of shill bids permitted to be placed by consignors or consignors friends and families. It was not so much that the house was doing it but that they permitted "artificial" bids to be placed. Bill is in prison for this. Doug is going shortly and possibly Mark and countless others dropped considerable amount of cash having to lawyer up so they did not end up in the same place.

I would say Brent is in a pretty dangerous spot should the feds read this and decide to take a look around. This might be a great time to lose one's hard drives and back ups.[/quote]
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 06-24-2016, 04:48 PM
Peter_Spaeth's Avatar
Peter_Spaeth Peter_Spaeth is offline
Peter Spaeth
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 16,943
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by glchen View Post
Peter, to me this is like a country trying to prop up its currency against hedge funds. You can keep buying and buying, but sooner or later, someone is going to blink. Usually the country. As long as the market is legitimate, it's all good to me.
Respectfully, that is a circular argument, assuming its conclusion that the market is legitimate. I say that if this is how prices are determined, it's not.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 06-24-2016, 04:58 PM
Gradedcardman's Avatar
Gradedcardman Gradedcardman is offline
Adam Goldenberg
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Wake Forest, NC
Posts: 1,330
Default Brent

Quote:
Originally Posted by botn View Post
Brent needs to define what he means by a bidder cannot bid on items he has consigned. How is he able to discourage that or even stop it? What about a bidder's BFF? So I have my doubts id rule one is adhered to. As to rule 2 only he would know if the massive volume of retractions are being done by the consignor (see question as to rule #1). As to rule 3, only Brent would know if items are all actually being paid for.

With that said, the government made their whole case against Mastro Auctions based on the sheer volume of shill bids permitted to be placed by consignors or consignors friends and families. It was not so much that the house was doing it but that they permitted "artificial" bids to be placed. Bill is in prison for this. Doug is going shortly and possibly Mark and countless others dropped considerable amount of cash having to lawyer up so they did not end up in the same place.

I would say Brent is in a pretty dangerous spot should the feds read this and decide to take a look around. This might be a great time to lose one's hard drives and back ups.

I had to point out a bidder bidding on their own item to Brent. He has so many items on at a time I am sure he does not review bid history on every item. When I did point out to him that the item was bought by bidder A, then Brent put it up for sale for bidder A and bidder A was now high bid on his own item he retracted his bids. It was blatant but he did take it down.
__________________
Adam Goldenberg
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 06-24-2016, 05:01 PM
glchen's Avatar
glchen glchen is offline
_G@ґy*€hℯη_
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 2,526
Default

Ok different analogy. Say I have a LOT of money in my brokerage account. I am in no way affiliated with Microsoft. I place a limit order in my brokerage account where I will buy any and all Microsoft stock if the price is $50 or lower. Until all of the vast sums of money in my account run out. I am trying to protect my investment in Microsoft by trying to make sure it doesn't go below $50. Why is this not ethical? It however can be very stupid if everyone else thinks MSFT is worth less than $50 and would be happy to dump those shares on me.

If the 300 odd folks who hold Rose rookies in PSA 8 don't think that card is worth 5 figures, they should just dump those cards on whoever is willing to buy those cards at those prices. That's the free market.

Last edited by glchen; 06-24-2016 at 05:02 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 06-24-2016, 05:02 PM
bravos4evr's Avatar
bravos4evr bravos4evr is offline
Nick Barnes
Member
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: South Mississippi
Posts: 757
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
Respectfully, that is a circular argument, assuming its conclusion that the market is legitimate. I say that if this is how prices are determined, it's not.
well that's the real trick right? Figuring out what is a legit buyer and what isn't? I mean, even if a shill pushes the price if the end buyer isn't an associate and buys the card with no malice than the price is legit. (and obviously the price is not legit if the buyer is a shill)

The hard part is knowing who is who, and aside from what you are doing with your research is difficult to ascertain.

A solution? IDK man, ebay isn't going to patrol it worth a darn, I guess it's up to the individuals self policing and pointing out stuff like you did in this thread,
__________________
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away."- Tom Waits
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 06-24-2016, 05:06 PM
ullmandds's Avatar
ullmandds ullmandds is offline
pete ullman
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: saint paul, mn
Posts: 8,635
Default

Pete...I totally with your argument so far.

And this is very similar to what Brent told me via email when I questioned one of his auctions building activity. He said while the one bidders activity was quite suspicious he knew for sure that the higher bid was legitimate. So my argument is that in the absence of the suspicious bitter the winning bid would not be nearly as high.

Last edited by ullmandds; 06-24-2016 at 05:42 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 06-24-2016, 05:28 PM
frankbmd's Avatar
frankbmd frankbmd is offline
Fr@nk Burke++
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Between the 1st tee and the 19th hole
Posts: 5,609
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ullmandds View Post
Pete...I totally with your argument so far.

And this is very similar to what Brent told me via email when I questioned one of his auctions building activity. He said while the one bitters activity was quite suspicious he knew for sure that the higher bid was legitimate. So my argument is that in the absence of the suspicious better be legitimate it would not be nearly as high.
It is very difficult to deal with a bitter, better bidder.
__________________
FRANK:BUR:KETT - NEARLY PQ AND ALMOST OLD ENOUGH TO BE ON A PREWAR CARD, BUT.........

MY AVATAR IS A GUY NAMED BURKETT TO WHOM I AM NOT RELATED, WHO IS OLD ENOUGH.


518/1000 Monster Number

Over*760* successful B/S/T transactions completed in 2012-19.
Over 550 sales with satisfied Board members served.
Thank you all.



Now nearly PQ.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 06-24-2016, 05:43 PM
ullmandds's Avatar
ullmandds ullmandds is offline
pete ullman
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: saint paul, mn
Posts: 8,635
Default

thats what happens Frank when I talk into the phone at the pool!!!!
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 06-24-2016, 06:31 PM
glynparson's Avatar
glynparson glynparson is offline
Glyn Parson
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Blandon PA
Posts: 1,825
Default Once again

The Bruces were ahead of the curve would love for Mr. Dorskind to be around to hear his perspective on this current situation. He loved his cards but also viewed them as investment commodities. As for Peter's question seems immoral but if they are willing to pay should they win I am not sure it can be considered illegal. I mean there have been times billionaires have proped up their stocks and millionaire artists bought tons of their albums or tickets to their movies to prop up numbers. IF the transactions go thru I see that it is immoral but I would have real problem legally punishing people for this type of behavior. After all it seems like they are willing to put their money where their mouth is.

Last edited by glynparson; 06-24-2016 at 06:36 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 06-24-2016, 06:43 PM
Peter_Spaeth's Avatar
Peter_Spaeth Peter_Spaeth is offline
Peter Spaeth
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 16,943
Default

I deliberately framed the question as one of ethics not legality because, with due respect, there are few things less productive than a lot of non-lawyers giving opinions about what the law should be. See Kevin Quinn pontificating on class actions for example.

I think my feelings about it would be the same whether or not it's illegal. To me, it's artificially and intentionally driving up prices. And it's happening every day, which means it can have an enormous impact.

Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 06-24-2016 at 06:51 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 06-24-2016, 06:50 PM
glynparson's Avatar
glynparson glynparson is offline
Glyn Parson
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Blandon PA
Posts: 1,825
Default Mine was

an attempt to state what i feel the law should be and hell I'm in court enough i might as well be a lawyer. unfortunate nature of my business. Lol

Last edited by glynparson; 06-24-2016 at 06:50 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 06-24-2016, 06:53 PM
pokerplyr80's Avatar
pokerplyr80 pokerplyr80 is offline
je.sse @rnot
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: California
Posts: 3,109
Default

I don't see it as unethical if the bidder is willing and able to buy the card for his bid. I would have a problem with someone bidding it up over another bidder's max and then retracting, or with two more more people colluding to artificially inflate prices.
__________________
Successful transactions with peter spaeth, don's cards, vwtdi, wolf441, 111gecko, Clydewally, Jim, SPMIDD, MattyC, jmb, botn, E107collector, begsu1013, and a few others.

http://www.collectorfocus.com/collection/pokerplyr80

Last edited by pokerplyr80; 06-24-2016 at 06:55 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 06-24-2016, 06:53 PM
Peter_Spaeth's Avatar
Peter_Spaeth Peter_Spaeth is offline
Peter Spaeth
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 16,943
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by glynparson View Post
an attempt to state what i feel the law should be and hell I'm in court enough i might as well be a lawyer. unfortunate nature of my business. Lol
LOL. That came out harsher than I intended, my point more broadly is that I don't see whether or not this practice is illegal as being the issue. Let's assume for the sake of argument it is legal, although I am not saying it is -- that doesn't make it ethical.

Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 06-24-2016 at 06:54 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 06-24-2016, 06:55 PM
glynparson's Avatar
glynparson glynparson is offline
Glyn Parson
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Blandon PA
Posts: 1,825
Default I agree

I agree i think it is unethical or immoral behavior.
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 06-24-2016, 07:12 PM
Shoebox's Avatar
Shoebox Shoebox is offline
Dustin Bellinger
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Nebraska
Posts: 493
Default

I think it's unethical but marginally so in any one instance. Frequency and volume can exacerbate it into more.
__________________
Personal Collection Magic Number: 29

Collecting Hall of Famers and players with Nebraska connections.

Last edited by Shoebox; 06-24-2016 at 07:18 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 06-24-2016, 07:12 PM
egbeachley's Avatar
egbeachley egbeachley is online now
Eric Bea.chley
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 809
Default

There should be no comparison to the Mastro shill bidding. While the intent there was also to raise the price, bidding was done with knowledge of the high bid amount. So let's toss that thought aside.

As far as bidding some amount to raise the price, with no knowledge of the high bid, without intending to win, but paying if you do win, no retractions allowed........ I don't even think it is immoral or unethical.

But, if your intention is to "protect your investment", then it also won't work. If prices of "your card" that you are trying to protect have gone up, you won't have bid enough and it doesn't matter since it is up. If it has gone down, all you will do it buy another card at a price higher than anyone else which means that if you were to sell it immediately you will lose money.

On a similar note, I was in a situation several years ago where I was bidding strong on cards from 4-5 different 1880's non-sports sets. I was consistently losing to the same collector - someone with loads of cash. It got to the point where I knew that if I bid $50, he would win it for $51. But if I didn't bid he would win it for $20. I wouldn't bid for a week, see how low they went for, think they went low and try again to win a few but then lose anyway. Frustrating. Wrote about it on the Net54 Non-Sports Card Forum. Someone finally responded that I controlled the market for these sets. Interesting thought.
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 06-24-2016, 07:13 PM
bnorth's Avatar
bnorth bnorth is online now
Ben North
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: South Dakota
Posts: 4,772
Default

I believe it is very unethical and immoral when done to card(s) I am looking to buy. Now if I am selling it is perfectly fine.
__________________
T210 Series 3 Ft Worth, looking for low end examples and especially ones with a Y shaped hole punch. I also have some extra T210's for trade.
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 06-24-2016, 07:16 PM
Peter_Spaeth's Avatar
Peter_Spaeth Peter_Spaeth is offline
Peter Spaeth
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 16,943
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by egbeachley View Post
There should be no comparison to the Mastro shill bidding. While the intent there was also to raise the price, bidding was done with knowledge of the high bid amount. So let's toss that thought aside.

As far as bidding some amount to raise the price, with no knowledge of the high bid, without intending to win, but paying if you do win, no retractions allowed........ I don't even think it is immoral or unethical.

But, if your intention is to "protect your investment", then it also won't work. If prices of "your card" that you are trying to protect have gone up, you won't have bid enough and it doesn't matter since it is up. If it has gone down, all you will do it buy another card at a price higher than anyone else which means that if you were to sell it immediately you will lose money.

On a similar note, I was in a situation several years ago where I was bidding strong on cards from 4-5 different 1880's non-sports sets. I was consistently losing to the same collector - someone with loads of cash. It got to the point where I knew that if I bid $50, he would win it for $51. But if I didn't bid he would win it for $20. I wouldn't bid for a week, see how low they went for, think they went low and try again to win a few but then lose anyway. Frustrating. Wrote about it on the Net54 Non-Sports Card Forum. Someone finally responded that I controlled the market for these sets. Interesting thought.
Much of what the government considered shill bidding in Mastro was NOT done with any knowledge of the high bids. Read the court papers. It was people bidding on their own lots trying to push up prices but willing to buy them back if they won.
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 06-24-2016, 07:28 PM
Rookiemonster's Avatar
Rookiemonster Rookiemonster is offline
Dustin
Dustin Mar.ino
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: Nj
Posts: 1,346
Default

It just feels wrong .when something feels wrong the chances are you shouldn't be involed with it .

The other hand : if it just happened to a card you listed , no doubt you would be happy. I don't think anyone would say no sorry you should have payed this much and give money back to someone .

The only real problem I have is that when whatever is going on stops . I don't think after that there is anywhere to go but down. Looks like a vintage baseball card bubble .......
__________________
Just a collector that likes to talk and read about the Hobby. 🤓👍🏼

Last edited by Rookiemonster; 06-24-2016 at 07:30 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #31  
Old 06-24-2016, 07:40 PM
botn botn is offline
Greg Schwartz
Banned
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,219
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by egbeachley View Post
There should be no comparison to the Mastro shill bidding. While the intent there was also to raise the price, bidding was done with knowledge of the high bid amount. So let's toss that thought aside.

As far as bidding some amount to raise the price, with no knowledge of the high bid, without intending to win, but paying if you do win, no retractions allowed........ I don't even think it is immoral or unethical.
That is not accurate. You should read my earlier post on this. In the Mastro case the government would consider your example as shill bidding. Having knowledge of the high bid is not a requirement for being a shill bidder.
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 06-24-2016, 08:36 PM
steve B steve B is offline
Steve Birmingham
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: eastern Mass.
Posts: 5,291
Default

To this laymans view, if it's illegal it's got a good chance of being unethical as well especially as a business plan.

(Sorry Peter, can't think of any other way to frame the argument well without resorting to laws )

If the card was a stock...........the manipulator might be in some trouble.

From Wikipedia as iffy a source as it may be,

" During the dot-com era, when stock-market fever was at its height and many people spent significant amounts of time on stock Internet message boards, a 15-year-old named Jonathan Lebed showed how easy it was to use the Internet to run a successful pump and dump. Lebed bought penny stocks and then promoted them on message boards, pointing at the price increase. When other investors bought the stock, Lebed sold his for a profit, leaving the other investors holding the bag. He came to the attention of the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC), which filed a civil suit against him alleging security manipulation. Lebed settled the charges by paying a fraction of his total gains. He neither admitted nor denied wrongdoing, but promised not to manipulate securities in the future."

And

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Market_manipulation


That being said, I can't recall ever hearing of anyone in any hobby field getting in trouble for that sort of thing. Collusive bidding to keep prices down ? Yes. Shilling items to benefit themselves directly? Yep. Jacking up prices of other people's stuff to eventually benefit them selves? Nope.

So, maybe indifference, or the authorities don't consider collectibles as investment commodities, or it hasn't been done on a large enough scale to require a law or to have an existing one applied. And who would be in charge anyway? I can't see the SEC claiming they have authority in collectibles markets.

Steve B
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 06-24-2016, 08:53 PM
Beastmode Beastmode is offline
J@ohn B.ar#ne.s
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Bay Area
Posts: 316
Default

How can this thread get 4 pages deep without Bob chiming in?
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 06-24-2016, 09:00 PM
Peter_Spaeth's Avatar
Peter_Spaeth Peter_Spaeth is offline
Peter Spaeth
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 16,943
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beastmode View Post
How can this thread get 4 pages deep without Bob chiming in?
You need to adjust your settings to 80 posts per page.
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 06-24-2016, 09:01 PM
egbeachley's Avatar
egbeachley egbeachley is online now
Eric Bea.chley
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 809
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by botn View Post
That is not accurate. You should read my earlier post on this. In the Mastro case the government would consider your example as shill bidding. Having knowledge of the high bid is not a requirement for being a shill bidder.
I think you are confused which is OK.

In every instance with the Mastro case there was a relationship with the bidder and the seller or Mastro (company). It has nothing to do with a random bidder seeing an auction of a card they own and thinking they will throw out a bid or two to "protect" their investment or grab a dupe.
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 06-24-2016, 09:19 PM
botn botn is offline
Greg Schwartz
Banned
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,219
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by egbeachley View Post
I think you are confused which is OK.

In every instance with the Mastro case there was a relationship with the bidder and the seller or Mastro (company). It has nothing to do with a random bidder seeing an auction of a card they own and thinking they will throw out a bid or two to "protect" their investment or grab a dupe.
You might want to check your facts before you post...you are absolutely wrong. Happy to have a discussion with you once you get your facts straight.
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 06-24-2016, 09:31 PM
Peter_Spaeth's Avatar
Peter_Spaeth Peter_Spaeth is offline
Peter Spaeth
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 16,943
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by egbeachley View Post
I think you are confused which is OK.

In every instance with the Mastro case there was a relationship with the bidder and the seller or Mastro (company). It has nothing to do with a random bidder seeing an auction of a card they own and thinking they will throw out a bid or two to "protect" their investment or grab a dupe.
You have completely changed the topic. Greg's point to you (and mine) was that your original claim that Mastro only involved cases where the bidding was done with knowledge of the high bids was wrong. He never said it involved random bidders that is a straw man.
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 06-24-2016, 09:52 PM
TheNightmanCometh's Avatar
TheNightmanCometh TheNightmanCometh is offline
Ryan Waggoner
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: California, USA
Posts: 522
Default

Peter, your point is very solid and in fact I would not be surprised if that is what is actually happening. The bidding dozens of times at the minimum amount screams to me someone who A) doesn't really want to win the auction and B) wants to drive up the price. Initially, I just thought that type of bidding was due to cheap buyers, but considering everything that's going on in the high-end market, your argument has validity.
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 06-24-2016, 10:07 PM
Exhibitman's Avatar
Exhibitman Exhibitman is offline
Ad@m W@r$h@w
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Beautiful Downtown Burbank
Posts: 7,136
Default

Ethics are irrelevant. This is arms length commerce between strangers. There is legal and illegal. The rest is meaningless.

As long as you have the risk of paying if you win you aren't doing anything wrong.

I sometimes will bid into a card I have up to a point where I wouldn't mind owning a dupe. I suspect that is a lot of what people do when they bid into cards then stop short of the top.
__________________
Please visit my web site: www.americasgreatboxingcards.com
So... move out of your studio apartment! And try speaking to a real live woman, and GROW THE HELL UP! I mean, it's just baseball cards dammit, IT'S JUST BASEBALL CARDS!
10% off any BIN in my eBay store (user name: exhibitman) for N54 members buying direct from me through this site instead, just PM me.
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 06-24-2016, 10:29 PM
Peter_Spaeth's Avatar
Peter_Spaeth Peter_Spaeth is offline
Peter Spaeth
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 16,943
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheNightmanCometh View Post
Peter, your point is very solid and in fact I would not be surprised if that is what is actually happening. The bidding dozens of times at the minimum amount screams to me someone who A) doesn't really want to win the auction and B) wants to drive up the price. Initially, I just thought that type of bidding was due to cheap buyers, but considering everything that's going on in the high-end market, your argument has validity.
To be clear, this IS actually happening, I am not speculating and if you read my post you can see at least one place where I am getting my information.

Ethics are irrelevant, interesting perspective.

Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 06-24-2016 at 10:42 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #41  
Old 06-25-2016, 01:07 AM
Iron Horse's Avatar
Iron Horse Iron Horse is offline
Ruben
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 749
Default

I feel it is unethical and should not be done. Even if they are willing to pay for the inflated bids that does not make it ok. Just because they have deep pockets and can afford to over pay for these card/s does not make it ok and it hurts the rest of us collectors who do not have $$$$.
These crazy prices have not only and affect on high end cards but i think we can see that even mid grade cards are influenced by these practices.
I hope this insanity will come to an end soon so the real collectors can continue to enjoy this great "Hobby".
__________________
Ruben
Reply With Quote
  #42  
Old 06-25-2016, 07:49 AM
ALR-bishop ALR-bishop is offline
Al Richter
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: San Antonio
Posts: 6,064
Default Collecting

Been collecting since 1957. With a couple of minor exceptions involving dupes, I do not sell. I have and still enjoy the hobby in all of it's evolutions The "hobby" is certainly different today then the 50s-70s, but I don't pine for the old days, and find it fascinating to watch it all unfold in the present, both the good and the bad. That's just me. I understand everyone has their own perspective
Reply With Quote
  #43  
Old 06-25-2016, 07:58 AM
aloondilana aloondilana is offline
Jo.hn Per.ez
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 108
Default Interesting thread

I've read this whole thread, wow.
The problem you got is many of you look at card collecting as a hobby.
Sadly, we got to start looking at this for what it really is and that's a billion dollar a year business.
If someone is willing to spend higher than what our little VCP says, who are we to judge? You can't have it both ways, I'm sure when you want to sell a card you want as much as you can get.
Same scenario, just with a larger budget.
Reply With Quote
  #44  
Old 06-25-2016, 08:23 AM
Leon's Avatar
Leon Leon is offline
Leon
peasant/forum owner
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: near Dallas
Posts: 27,127
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beastmode View Post
How can this thread get 4 pages deep without Bob chiming in?
This post is a sure sign that you are positively clicking to turn too many pages. Every member should go to their User Control Panel and change the thread count on each page from 10 to 80. Then you will now be on page 1, instead of 4. It makes life on the board a wee bit easier.

As for the shilling, I am watching the debate.

ps...also, see post 34
__________________
Leon Luckey

Last edited by Leon; 06-25-2016 at 08:25 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #45  
Old 06-25-2016, 09:56 AM
Jantz's Avatar
Jantz Jantz is offline
Archive
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,737
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by aloondilana View Post
I've read this whole thread, wow.
The problem you got is many of you look at card collecting as a hobby.
Sadly, we got to start looking at this for what it really is and that's a billion dollar a year business.
If someone is willing to spend higher than what our little VCP says, who are we to judge? You can't have it both ways, I'm sure when you want to sell a card you want as much as you can get.
Same scenario, just with a larger budget.
I don't see a problem. I still look at card collecting as a hobby. It is something that I enjoy. If the time ever comes when collecting cards is no longer enjoyable, I will walk away from the hobby just as easily as I walked into it.

As far as a card selling for more or less than VCP, maybe no one has the right to judge that, but myself and others do have the right to judge the means at which the price was reached.

So back to topic. Whether or not the buyer is willing to pay for the card or not, "pushing" the price is just another form of manipulating/controlling the final sale price. A new word for another word that already exists.
Reply With Quote
  #46  
Old 06-25-2016, 11:15 AM
rgpete's Avatar
rgpete rgpete is offline
Ron
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Eastern N. Carolina ( New Jersey Born and Raised)
Posts: 872
Default

Baseball cards as a hobby and or investments is getting more like the penny stock market with the market makers and manipulation of the up and down prices
Reply With Quote
  #47  
Old 06-25-2016, 12:25 PM
100backstroke 100backstroke is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 648
Default my humble take...

If someone is willing and able to pay high prices - and does so - ok. However, it would be prudent for the buyer to realize they are paying ultra top dollar and may not get the price when they sell.

A small company stock may go for 30 cents today - and $3. tomorrow - because someone is willing to pay $3. A house listed at $265,000 may go for what seems over market $305,000 because people are willing to pay $305,000. It is a risk on the buyers part. If the economy crashes again and the $305,000. house they bought drops to $225,000. - well, ouch. Or if the now $3. stock goes bankrupt, well, thats the risk taken. There is risk of rookie cards falling - risk taken by the buyer. How much continued upside with high priced rookie cards? Nobody knows. But I remember a little saying, "buy low, sell high."

As for other potential buyers at a more reasonable price, oh well, suck it up, you may not check off much on your want list. But keep tabs on the market over the next year or two and prices may drop back down to reasonable prices again.

I totally empathize over the "missed the boat" current mentality. I didn't buy them 1-10 years ago, and I sure not buying them now. I have always opted to put my money into quality pre-war. Hopefully there will be a trickle down to the cards I like - 1920's Exhibit HOFers, Colgan's Chips, Domino Discs, Silks, Type cards of major HOFers, the occasional Playball's, and of course T206's.
Reply With Quote
  #48  
Old 06-25-2016, 01:30 PM
MVSNYC MVSNYC is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 2,370
Default

"As long as you have the risk of paying if you win you aren't doing anything wrong."

I agree with Adam W.

Last edited by MVSNYC; 06-25-2016 at 01:31 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #49  
Old 06-25-2016, 01:36 PM
drcy's Avatar
drcy drcy is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 2,393
Default

I think if a "market protector" is bidding what he is honestly willing to pay if that is the winning bid (as opposed to a shiller who would retract a bid once he gets in the lead), that is okay. Though, if he is the regular winner, it is a bad investment strategy, akin to throwing good money after bad.

Last edited by drcy; 06-25-2016 at 01:46 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #50  
Old 06-25-2016, 01:47 PM
Peter_Spaeth's Avatar
Peter_Spaeth Peter_Spaeth is offline
Peter Spaeth
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 16,943
Default

Let's suppose that a "market pusher" (not my term by the way) is successful 70 percent of the time in getting someone else to pay more than he would have, and 30 percent of the time ends up winning and paying. Those are probably conservative numbers based on looking at some bidding histories. I don't see why it's perfectly OK to drive up someone else's price deliberately on numerous transactions just because you're willing to pay if you guess the top wrong. And whether it's your own card you are bidding on or someone else's, if the result is the same -- another bidder pays more -- I don't see why that matters either. People who were bidding their own cards up in Mastro also were willing to, and did, pay if they won. But that was deemed irrelevant. Whatever.

Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 06-25-2016 at 01:49 PM.
Reply With Quote
Reply



Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Is the baseball card market a "perfect" market? The Demise of the "price guide" ullmandds Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions 24 06-29-2013 10:09 PM
A market for "known" forgeries? Anything else like this? (slightly O/T) scooter729 Net54baseball Sports (Primarily) Vintage Memorabilia Forum incl. Game Used 9 01-05-2011 02:33 PM
Are "Flea Market's" dead? hunterdutchess Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions 10 09-22-2010 10:26 AM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:08 PM.


ebay GSB