Cool Story

[wonkaticket]

http://news.msn.com/us/california-go...sh-of-theories

[ullmandds]

Yes...cool story...esp the one off coin the guy must have made for himself at the mint. It would be like creating a one-of-a-kind T206... With the intention of cashing in at a much later date! It's not looking like this couple is going to get to keep any of it though... Maybe a small finders fee.

[I Only Smoke 4 the Cards]

Very cool story.

Pete - Why can't the couple keep it?

[atx840]

Love reading these find stories....to ponder the history and the slim chance of being found....cool indeed.

[edjs]

Originally Posted by I Only Smoke 4 the Cards

Very cool story.

Pete - Why can't the couple keep it?

Because these coins were possibly stolen from the US mint in San Francisco, so they still belong to the Government.

[itjclarke]

Originally Posted by edjs

Because these coins were possibly stolen from the US mint in San Francisco, so they still belong to the Government.

Gov will make plenty more than face value on taxes after sale

[barrysloate]

If I made a find like that, I wouldn't tell anyone and just sell a few at a time, making sure I stayed under the radar. Why did these people go public with it?

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

If I made a find like that, I wouldn't tell anyone and just sell a few at a time, making sure I stayed under the radar. Why did these people go public with it?

+1

[2dueces]

Originally Posted by edjs

Because these coins were possibly stolen from the US mint in San Francisco, so they still belong to the Government.

His theory is way off. He had his 15 minutes of fame now he should go away again. The dates of the coins are too far apart to have been left at the mint that long. Plus not all the coins were pristine, some showed a lot of wear. This was a stash from some one back in the day. No telling why he didn't come back to recover it.

[birdman42]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

If I made a find like that, I wouldn't tell anyone and just sell a few at a time, making sure I stayed under the radar. Why did these people go public with it?

A couple of the coins might go for more than a million each at auction. Kind of hard to stay under the radar with items like that.

Originally Posted by edjs

Because these coins were possibly stolen from the US mint in San Francisco, so they still belong to the Government.

Hooray for social media! A spokesperson for the Mint says they have no records of such a theft. (It's possible those records were destroyed in the 1906 earthquake.) And, as the article says, the items in the hoard don't match up with what was supposedly stolen. A "mint-sealed bag" would have contained all newly-minted coins. I've owned both mint-sealed bags of coins and coins in a bag that came from the mint. Not the same thing.

Bill

[I Only Smoke 4 the Cards]

Originally Posted by 2dueces

His theory is way off. He had his 15 minutes of fame now he should go away again. The dates of the coins are too far apart to have been left at the mint that long. Plus not all the coins were pristine, some showed a lot of wear. This was a stash from some one back in the day. No telling why he didn't come back to recover it.

That's what I read too.

[sebie43]

Wish I found them = Quiet as a cat

[barrysloate]

Originally Posted by birdman42

A couple of the coins might go for more than a million each at auction. Kind of hard to stay under the radar with items like that.


Hooray for social media! A spokesperson for the Mint says they have no records of such a theft. (It's possible those records were destroyed in the 1906 earthquake.) And, as the article says, the items in the hoard don't match up with what was supposedly stolen. A "mint-sealed bag" would have contained all newly-minted coins. I've owned both mint-sealed bags of coins and coins in a bag that came from the mint. Not the same thing.

Bill

I wouldn't sell the million dollar ones ( I wasn't aware there were rarities in the collection) for a very long time. I would start from the bottom up.

Regarding why nobody ever came back to claim them, there could be a simple answer: he died before he had a chance to return.

[frankbmd]

Regarding why nobody ever came back to claim them, there could be a simple answer: he died before he had a chance to return.

Maybe it was Charley, Barry. He could have used one of those coins.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qg33Q1aV1wQ

[jhs5120]

Even if the couple was able to spread out the sale of these coins over a span of 30 years, it would be hard to account for an extra $10 million in earnings without raising any questions (especially if your regular income is <$100k).

It's much safer to legally earn $6 million than illegally earn $10 million. When you become a millionaire overnight, it's petty to nickel and dime the IRS.

[barrysloate]

Frank- since I went to Boston University, I am actually well aware of that song. You have to pay the MTA fare as you exit the train, which is unusual.

Jason- not suggesting one should avoid paying taxes, but simply sell a little at a time not to raise eyebrows. Imagine if you bought an original shoebox of T206's and there were six Wagners in it. You wouldn't sell all six on the first day. You would devise a better strategy, and sell them off over time. That's all. And you wouldn't run to the media and ask them to do a story about your find. You would recognize it's better to keep it private. No big deal either way, but that's how I would do it.

[jhs5120]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Jason- not suggesting one should avoid paying taxes, but simply sell a little at a time not to raise eyebrows. Imagine if you bought an original shoebox of T206's and there were six Wagners in it. You wouldn't sell all six on the first day. You would devise a better strategy, and sell them off over time. That's all. And you wouldn't run to the media and ask them to do a story about your find. You would recognize it's better to keep it private. No big deal either way, but that's how I would do it.

If we want to get technical, the couple owes the taxes regardless of whether they sell the coins or not. If the coins are valued at $10 million, the couple will still need to pay taxes based on those earnings. Just as if I found 6 Wagners, I would owe the government around $2 million come tax day so I would be forced to sell at least two of them immediately to pay what is owed.

If we're strictly talking about the selling strategy I have no opinion (I do not know the coin market).

I will however, compare this to the Black Swamp Find. The family went to the media, it was a great story and created a lot of buzz in the card community. All-in-all, I think it helped their sales a bit.

I would imagine these coins will reach record prices (I don't know why they are using amazon as their venue though).

[Peter_Spaeth]

Right, that's what happened to the woman who won the T206 Wagner in the Walmart sweepstakes, she had to sell to afford the taxes.

[ctownboy]

1) I saw the story last week and also thought it was cool.

2) As far as who the original owner was, I think it was either a store owner or some other business owner who, over a period of years, took their excess profits and went to the bank periodically and bought gold and hoarded it.

3) Selling the coins on Amazon, imho, is not the right way to do it. Heritage Auctions has major coin sales during the year and they get high prices. I am pretty sure if the couple had went to them and said they want zero commission on the sale of coins that might be valued at $10 million they would have gotten it.

David

[packs]

I remember not too long ago there was a guy who claimed to have dug up buried treasure in his back yard only for it to turn out that he had stolen the items and came up with the story to explain how he'd come into possession of them.

Hope this is not one of those stories.

Here it is: http://www.foxnews.com/story/2005/04...find-treasure/

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Frank- since I went to Boston University, I am actually well aware of that song. You have to pay the MTA fare as you exit the train, which is unusual.

Not since I have lived here (1981).

[barrysloate]

Jason- what if when you purchased this imaginary collection with six Wagners, you decided to keep them all, at least for the time being? What would obligate you to declare them?

And if you did pay tax on them in the year you bought the collection, but chose to keep them for a while, what would happen when you sold them? Would you now owe no taxes at all? And how does one determine their value on the day you buy the collection? Isn't that kind of hard to assess with accuracy?

[barrysloate]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Not since I have lived here (1981).

I lived in Boston 1969-1972, and that's how it worked then. I guess they changed the way you pay.

[jhs5120]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Jason- what if when you purchased this imaginary collection with six Wagners, you decided to keep them all, at least for the time being? What would obligate you to declare them?

You are legally obligated to declare the Wagners, but as long as they're off the radar the IRS won't be knocking on your door. I still wouldn't try it. Whenever you sell them, questions will be raised. You would need to tell them you obtained 6 at one time (it would look fishy if you acquired a new Wagner on 6 separate occasions). Whether you say you inherited them or bought them at a flea market or anything you are admitting to tax evasion.

Originally Posted by barrysloate

And if you did pay tax on them in the year you bought the collection, but chose to keep them for a while, what would happen when you sold them? Would you now owe no taxes at all? And how does one determine their value on the day you buy the collection? Isn't that kind of hard to assess with accuracy?

If you acquire the 6 Wagners and value them at $500,000 a piece that's $3 million that you need to declare. If you sell them 10 years down the road at $800,000 a piece then you just made $300,000 each! Congrats, you need to declare $300,000 per card again on your taxes.

I believe (I may be wrong) that the estimated value can be reasonably made by anyone who could be argued as an expert. I'm sure you could make a strong argument that you yourself would be an expert on the topic. It wouldn't be a huge issue. If you make your estimate now, declare them, and the later pay any gains down the road the IRS will be happy

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

i lived in boston 1969-1972, and that's how it worked then. I guess they changed the way you pay.

lol.

[barrysloate]

I'm not that old.

[I Only Smoke 4 the Cards]

Originally Posted by packs

I remember not too long ago there was a guy who claimed to have dug up buried treasure in his back yard only for it to turn out that he had stolen the items and came up with the story to explain how he'd come into possession of them.



Hope this is not one of those stories.



Here it is: http://www.foxnews.com/story/2005/04...find-treasure/

I remember that. It was such an implausible story.

[smokelessjoe]

I was able to see the Coins first hand on display last weekend! Took my son & daughter to the ANA Coin Show of which Kagin's had a booth set up.

A week, week and a half ago I heard the story on the radio - I came home and told the wife & kids about the "buried treasure" find... Kids were so excited to hear about it, they wanted to go and dig in the yard that night! A few days later I heard another story about the gold coins on the radio and that the coins would be on display at the ANA show located about an hour from the house. So this past weekend I loaded up the kids and surprised them!

Side Note:

I was so surprised at how kid friendly the coin show was. It turns out - that for my kids the gold coins ended up being an after thought. The show had set up a treasure hunt, create your own coin, coins of the world, books, candy on and on... They really had a focus on the kids - this included all of the dealers, vendors and coins guys. And do not get me wrong this was no small venue, it was huge. It was like the National. We would walk up to a dealers booth who was obviously a big time seller - guys all around trying to buy stuff from him - all the dealers would stop and talk to my kids - most would give them a coin etc.... Just a great experience

[barrysloate]

Jason- I understand the concept of paying tax on profits, but just when you need to declare those profits is a little more confusing.

Let's take a hypothetical: you buy an old house, and while cleaning the attic, you find a shoebox of baseball cards, and in it is a Wagner. You are a collector, marvel at your incredible fortune, and decide to keep it as the centerpiece of your collection. You rate it VG and value it at a million dollars.

Do you mean to say the next time you pay your taxes, your are going to include an extra 400K? Since most people don't have that lying around, you would not even be able to keep it. On the other hand, if you decide to sell it a few years later, you would easily be able to pay the taxes.

I'm not disputing the law, but it's hard to imagine too many people in that situation actually declaring to the IRS that they found it.

[jhs5120]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Jason- I understand the concept of paying tax on profits, but just when you need to declare those profits is a little more confusing.

Let's take a hypothetical: you buy an old house, and while cleaning the attic, you find a shoebox of baseball cards, and in it is a Wagner. You are a collector, marvel at your incredible fortune, and decide to keep it as the centerpiece of your collection. You rate it VG and value it at a million dollars.

Do you mean to say the next time you pay your taxes, your are going to include an extra 400K? Since most people don't have that lying around, you would not even be able to keep it. On the other hand, if you decide to sell it a few years later, you would easily be able to pay the taxes.

I'm not disputing the law, but it's hard to imagine too many people in that situation actually declaring to the IRS that they found it.

That's the law, but you're right, most people in that situation would opt not to disclose it (which is illegal). You just made a million dollars! Whether you sell the card or not, you are clearly wealthier with the card than without; you owe taxes. The woman who won the Walmart Wagner needed to sell it, the man who caught Babbry Bonds 756 home run ball needed to sell it, the couple in California with all this gold needs to sell it. It happens. It's a problem I wouldn't mind having

[barrysloate]

So let's take the same story with a twist: you find the shoebox of cards in the attic and you decide to keep them...but you're not a collector and you have no idea they are valuable.

Ten years later you pull them out of a drawer and decide to sell them. And lo and behold (not to be confused with the law firm of Lowe & Behold), they sell for a million dollars. The IRS asks where and when you got them, and you say you've had them for ten years. Have you broken the law? Will you get penalized for not having paid the taxes ten years earlier?

[I Only Smoke 4 the Cards]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

So let's take the same story with a twist: you find the shoebox of cards in the attic and you decide to keep them...but you're not a collector and you have no idea they are valuable.



Ten years later you pull them out of a drawer and decide to sell them. And lo and behold (not to be confused with the law firm of Lowe & Behold), they sell for a million dollars. The IRS asks where and when you got them, and you say you've had them for ten years. Have you broken the law? Will you get penalized for not having paid the taxes ten years earlier?

No.

[botport]

I agree, this a cool story. What intrigues me is what proof is there that these coins were stolen from the mint? It's not like we are talking about numbered bills that can be recorded and documented as missing. The 1866 no motto $20 double eagle is curious but some records indicate that as many as 120,000 identical coins were minted (source- Encyclopedia of U.S. Gold Coins).

The wide range of dates on the coins and circulated condition of many also seems to negate the heist theory. Most experts have stated that the mint would not have old coinage on hand but would instead melt those coins down to mint new ones.

It does not appear to me that the government is making a play for the hoard, but in my opinion if they do, their case is speculation and wishful thinking.

[barrysloate]

Frank- where did you read that there is an 1866-S No Motto $20 in the group? It's not mentioned in the attached article. Is there a list of the coins somewhere? It appears that all of them have the "S" mint mark. That's pretty cool.

[smokelessjoe]

I know that some were minted in Dahlonega, Ga. - Kagin mention that as I was viewing the coins...

[barrysloate]

Dahlonega gold coins are generally quite scarce. What an amazing find, maybe the greatest ever. It's up there with the Redfield hoard (you can google it).

[botport]

Barry,

here is the link regarding the 1866...


http://blog.sfgate.com/stienstra/201...ly/#21188101=0

[ullmandds]

Aaaaaannnd...things are looking up for this lucky couple, again!

[barrysloate]

Thanks Frank. The 1866-S No Motto appears to be a condition rarity. They don't seem to be too tough in circulated condition, but nearly impossible to find uncirculated. Looks like a collection that is going to garner a boatload of attention when it comes to auction.

[mrvster]

very cool.....

[thehoodedcoder]

Originally Posted by jhs5120

If we want to get technical, the couple owes the taxes regardless of whether they sell the coins or not. If the coins are valued at $10 million, the couple will still need to pay taxes based on those earnings. Just as if I found 6 Wagners, I would owe the government around $2 million come tax day so I would be forced to sell at least two of them immediately to pay what is owed.

If we're strictly talking about the selling strategy I have no opinion (I do not know the coin market).

I will however, compare this to the Black Swamp Find. The family went to the media, it was a great story and created a lot of buzz in the card community. All-in-all, I think it helped their sales a bit.

I would imagine these coins will reach record prices (I don't know why they are using amazon as their venue though).

well, technically they didn't have to pay taxes on it when it was in the ground on their land. now they have to pay taxes on it since it was removed from their land?

what happens if put it back in the ground where it was? if you pulled an antique arrow head out of the ground and never sold it, you would have to pay taxes on it? I don't really think so if it came from the land that you already bought and paid taxes on.

kevin

[thehoodedcoder]

Originally Posted by jhs5120

That's the law, but you're right, most people in that situation would opt not to disclose it (which is illegal). You just made a million dollars! Whether you sell the card or not, you are clearly wealthier with the card than without; you owe taxes. The woman who won the Walmart Wagner needed to sell it, the man who caught Babbry Bonds 756 home run ball needed to sell it, the couple in California with all this gold needs to sell it. It happens. It's a problem I wouldn't mind having

I'm not a tax attorney, but this doesn't really make much sense from a comparison perspective. One could easily argue that when you bought the house and the property you purchased that with it as well. One could easily even argue that you knew it was there when you bought the house.

You have not realized any profit on anything other than what you bought. That's the equivalent of saying, the house was appraised at 500k and I bought it for 400k now I have to pay the taxes on the 100k profit because I have an asset I bought.

It's one thing if you get the item given to you or you find it off your own property, but if you bought the item where it resided its a totally different ball game.

Kevin

[Texxxx]

It S**ks but Jason is right.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/robertwo...xes-take-half/

[thehoodedcoder]

Well, that definitely locks up the paper money in the piano scenario with the argument of statue of limitations.

A natural metal from the earth which was found in the ground? Lol. No I don't really think they are much different, but it certainly adds to the irony.

That was judged in 1970?

I do believe that he argued the wrong thing though. I think the proper argument is he bought the piano and the money for 15.00. I haven't sold it yet. LOL.

Your most likely not going to win though. You are up against the leanest, most aggressive money spending machine on the planet which can make up its own rules as it goes, and pretty much does what it needs to perpetuate.

Kevin