1947 D323 Tip Top Bread

[timelord]

Greetings, is the 1947 Tip Top Bread considered a Major set? I believe it was issued regionally. So would any "Rookies" in this set would be true rookie cards?
Look forward to some replies.
Thank You,
Richard

[Leon]

I am not a rookie card collector anymore but I would certainly consider cards from this set when determining a rookie. Others might not but I would.

[novakjr]

Well, there's what Beckett says is a rookie, and then there's what really is a rookie. In terms of "pre-major/modern release era"(basically '47 and earlier) Barring complete obscurity, I view ANY Major League release, regardless of major or regional release status, as rookie cards..

While I'm willing to "accept" the 1948 Bowman('49 for Kell) rookie designation for these players(forgive me if I forgot any), the Berra, Spahn, Kell and Kiner to me all count as "true rookie" cards in the '47 TT set..

The listing of guys like Rizzuto and Feller(probably a few more) as RCs in '48 Bowman, is a complete and utter joke. Those type players deserve NO rookie designation in the '47 TT set, just because they fall before the '48 release.

Again, I'm willing to forgive(and accept) some of the Beckett player RC designations for '48-49 Bowman, but some are so far off, it's not even funny..

For better RC acceptance and designations, ignore Beckett, and refer to Phil's lists..
http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=141603
http://www.oldcardboard.com/ref/rookies/rookieslist.asp
http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=128179

While, I and others, are willing to give some lee-way to later releases than those on these lists(I'll refer to those as "acceptable rookies"), Phil is spot on, in regards to "true rookies". Although, there is still some debate as to what are cards.

[timelord]

Hello, thanks for the replies. I agree 100% about Beckett. If you go strictly by Beckett guidelines for true rookies all of the 1933 Goudey Hall of Famers are rookies because they completely ignore the pre 33 Goudey sets as rookies. Go figure. I also think that the 1947 Tip Top Bread set has some true Rookie as you mentioned Berra, Spahn, and Kell. Great looking set also. Beckett rates 1948 Bowman Berra, Spahn and I believe the Leaf Kell as true rookies. I guess because it was a Nationally distributed set as opposed to regional. I don't agree with that reasoning. The debate among collectors will always differ on true rookies because there is no specific critera that MUST be met. I know many collectors consider the players FIRST card a rookie even if it is MINOR leagues. NOT ME. Well it is fun pursuing these elusive cards rookies or not.
Thanks,
Richard

[bcbgcbrcb]

As previously mentioned, the Tip Top Bread set has a few key rookie cards that can present quite a challenge for the rookie collectors.

[timelord]

Phil, what do you think are the toughest 1947 Tip Top Bread rookies?
Thanks,
Richard

[bcbgcbrcb]

I have only focused on the HOF rookies, in order of difficulty I would say that Spahn is the toughest, Berra next and then Kell. Compared to Bowmans/Leafs, all are very tough though

[novakjr]

Originally Posted by timelord

I also think that the 1947 Tip Top Bread set has some true Rookie as you mentioned Berra, Spahn, and Kell. Great looking set also. Beckett rates 1948 Bowman Berra, Spahn and I believe the Leaf Kell as true rookies.
Thanks,
Richard

The Leaf wasn't a '48 issue. Often mislabeled as one though. As a '49 issue, it makes both that and the '49 Bowman, somewhat acceptable rookies for him. But yes, I'd say that the '47 is Kell's "true rookie card". I think he has the '45 team issue photo though. But that's debatable as if it's a "card" or not..

Don't forget Kiner... As the '46-49 Sports Exchange is both a larger premium, and may not even pre-date '47. As evident by the Bob Lemon in the Sports Exchange set, because there's not a chance in hell it can predate '49(while being shared with Red Rolfe as a Manager)...Although it often gets lumped at the front of the line for him, because the timespan of the issue starts in '46...

[bcbgcbrcb]

Good pick-up on the Kiner, Dave, I forgot about that one. I would be pretty comfortable in saying that the Sports Exchange premium was not issued in 1946, thus the Tip Top Bread would be a rookie card for Kiner as well. As far as difficulty, I would place that one as a little tougher than Kell but not as difficult as Spahn or Berra.

[timelord]

Greetings all, I was wondering how the 1947 Tip Top compare to the 1947 Bond Bread set? Are both sets equal in scarcity and I know Berra appears in the 1947 Bond set also. I would think either card would be considered the Rookie.
Thanks,
Richard

[novakjr]

Originally Posted by timelord

Greetings all, I was wondering how the 1947 Tip Top compare to the 1947 Bond Bread set? Are both sets equal in scarcity and I know Berra appears in the 1947 Bond set also. I would think either card would be considered the Rookie.
Thanks,
Richard

I don't know about scarcity comparisons, but definitely the Bonds would get rookie consideration as well. However, that is a very tricky issue, that has had a handful of discussions on this board, especially in regards to the square corner ones, and their possible(probable) '49 release and speculated reprintings. The warehouse find in the 80's(?) raised numerous questions.... Only the round cornered ones, I believe, had a '47 release. Everything else was probably later..

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=92743

[h2oya311]

I agree w/ all if David's comments, as well as Phil's rankings on scarcity for the Tip Top Breads.

Tip Tops are MUCH scarcer than the Bond Bread cards, mostly because of the "find" of Bond Breads that David mentioned. Condition is usually poor to VG on Tip Tops, so don't expect high quality examples to show up. If its > EX shape, there's a good chance it's a reprint. I know a few reprints are floating around out there.

[tedzan]

The 1947 BOND BREAD was issued quite early in 1947. I know this, as this set of 48 cards were my first BB cards that I collected when I was 9 years old.

The original 1947 ROUNDED cards are not that easy to find. The SQUARE versions are not that scarce; however, they were not issued in 1947.

There are two versions of the SQUARE issue. There was a redo of the 1947 cards in 1949 and these cards were packaged in 4 packs of 12 cards....
each of which were sold at novelty shops.

The David Festberg find in the early 1980's are reprints of only 24 of the 48 cards. The date of these 24 cards is a mystery.



Here are some of the more notable "rookie" cards in the original 1947 BOND BREAD set............





I even still have an original Bond Bread loaf wrapper






TED Z

[novakjr]

Exactly, Ted. Thanks for joining the discussion. I've always enjoyed your threads and insights on the bond breads. Some players will have multiple "true rookies". I wasn't discrediting the 47 bonds, just pointing out that the square cornered ones are a whole different beast.

[tedzan]

David

You re absolutely correct.

These BOND BREAD issues are quite confusing to most, who are not as old as me to have collecting them 66 years ago.


Furthermore, I can attest to the fact that the 1949 LEAF BB cards are exclusively a 1949 issue.

The 1949 LEAF Paige preceded the 1949 BOWMAN Paige. Leaf issued their 2nd series cards (Paige included) in the Summer of '49.
This scarce series was Short-Printed and its distribution was limited to Boston, Illinois, Michigan, and Ohio.

While BOWMAN issued their last series of Hi #s (Paige included) in the Fall of '49.

I welcome any more questions on these 3 sets.


TED Z

[novakjr]

Awesome once again Ted. Now I'm gonna have a little "technical" fun with the Beckett modern rookie designation rules.

Now, given that the 2nd series of '49 Leaf was only released in 4 states, it would technically then, not be a "Major(or National) Release", but rather a "regional release" that is only an extension of a national release. Thus, it's not officially deserving of RC designation. Making the '49 Bowman of Paige, technically, his ONLY official RC(per Beckett rules)..

Sorry, just in an odd mood, and having a goofy moment.

[HRBAKER]

I believe I got these on the BST from Phil G. over the years.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by novakjr

Now, given that the 2nd series of '49 Leaf was only released in 4 states, it would technically then, not be a "Major(or National) Release", but rather a "regional release" that is only an extension of a national release. Thus, it's not officially deserving of RC designation. Making the '49 Bowman of Paige, technically, his ONLY official RC

David

I know you are only joshing......but, I will say this, LEAF's 1st series (49 cards) were issued in early Spring of '49 (they preceded the 1st series of BOWMAN's); and,
were nationally distributed in large volume.

Warren Bowman sued LEAF over the the rights to certain players and the use of the wording "BaseBall Bubble Gum" on LEAF's wrapper. This resulted in LEAF's short-
printing of their 2nd series cards. Otherwise, these cards would have been nationally distributed.

Therefore, in my opinion, LEAF's 2nd series Paige and Doby are indeed their true "rookie" cards. Same goes for other players that are in this series.

. . .

TED Z

[novakjr]

Ted. you amaze me. I crack a joke, and it opens up the floodgates for more great information. Didn't know about Bowman suing Leaf.. Just another reason I love this forum.. Love the Leaf Doby and the Satches...

Also, Jeff. Great Kiner and Kell Tip Tops.

[tedzan]

OK....I'll switch this TIP TOP train back onto the main track.................

This set is too tough to complete; therefore, I only collect the Yankees.



..


TED Z

[HRBAKER]

Other than chasing the HOFers, I collect the Cardinals.

[h2oya311]

here are my HOF rookies:

[bcbgcbrcb]

That's a really nice Kiner, Derek. Most of these tend to grade in the 1-2 range.

[spec]

Originally Posted by bcbgcbrcb

As previously mentioned, the Tip Top Bread set has a few key rookie cards that can present quite a challenge for the rookie collectors.

Rather than focusing on HOF rookies, I made completing the 1947 Tip Top set a collecting priority because it provides such an interesting slice of baseball after World War II but before the maturation of the Yankee and Dodger dynasties of the 1950s. In fact, Dodger mainstays Preacher Roe and Billy Cox appear as Pirates, while eventual Yankee ace Eddie Lopat is a White Sox. Though the Phillies, Reds, Indians and Athletics are omitted, the set does include the Browns, Cubs, Tigers and Red Sox, who all made recent rare World Series appearances and the Braves, who would be in the Series for the first time in 34 years the following season.

[h2oya311]

Thanks Phil. At the time of purchase, it was the highest graded example on the Population reports. I'm not sure if it is any more.

I clearly need a Spahn upgrade!

All the best.

[toppcat]

This is an intriguing set, although first I have to say I find the whole "defining a rookie card" rationalization promulgated by Beckett, SCD and some others to be ridiculous. A player's rookie card is is his first appearance on a card. If you want to qualify it by saying it has to be on a MLB card then so be it but a lot pf pre-war collectors would disagree.

I have thought about collecting the Dodgers team set of the Tip Top's but am not sure how feasible it is. The (mostly) non stock poses are pretty sweet. Does anyone know their source for player photos?