Hey, pennant guys

[UKCardGuy]

Originally Posted by thetahat

Gary, you might also like this hour long documentary:

https://youtu.be/EC_dpKONlhg

The Browns have, IMO, the coolest logo in sports history, with the Apothesis of Saint (King) Louis, nudging out the Brewers and Hartford Whalers. The statue which resides in front of the Saint Louis Art Museum is now a target for cancellation by leftist activists.

I wonder if any of the jersey collectors on the board have a Browns with this logo as a sleeve patch. Just beautiful.

Now you're just making me envious. Great collection Greg.

If you're ever in the mood to sell that grommet pennant, let me know

[ooo-ribay]

Originally Posted by UKCardGuy

Now you're just making me envious.

That’s what Greg does!

[thetahat]

Originally Posted by UKCardGuy

Now you're just making me envious. Great collection Greg.

If you're ever in the mood to sell that grommet pennant, let me know

Thank you … the TV clip showed a blue version which has been elusive for me …

[perezfan]

In the video, the image is 70% obscured, but I think the one second from the right is the one I've needed for so long. It has a mischievous Brownie's face and is 3/4 size.

Not positive that's the one but I believe it is. I know "Bignoff" on this board has one. Hey Bignoff.... If you see this, can you possibly post a photo?

[perezfan]

NM. A very kind Net54er was able to help me out!

[bocca001]

I guess I'm working on a full wheel of this pennant, with various felt and graphics color combinations. The seller said, in his description, that he would ship in a tube. But, yeah, he didn't. At least he avoided folding the graphics.

These days, I almost always contact sellers and ask them to ship lightly rolled in a box. Most sellers are cool about it, be some can be a bit rude. So I just didn't bother this time because of the written description. Guess I'll go back to asking everyone (other than known pennant sellers).

[ooo-ribay]

That’s a beauty. Looks like you were able to save it. The seller either deftly avoided the graphics or you lucked out.

[thetahat]

Originally Posted by ooo-ribay

That’s a beauty. Looks like you were able to save it. The seller either deftly avoided the graphics or you lucked out.

The coolest looking vintage football pennant ever made. Trench, of course!

[thetahat]

Emmet was a commie?

[thetahat]

(I know it’s Moscow, ID …)

[perezfan]

To commemorate Jackie Robinson, TSOG is doing a "Jackie Week" featuring 7 very cool Pennants with African American players as the subjects.

The first segment features Larry Doby, Satchell Paige and Don Newcombe (and is already posted online). The second segment (to be aired on Friday) will be all about Jackie, with 4 rare pennants that feature his likeness.

Hope you enjoy, and thanks for watching. Link below...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=US1RRRSWzNE

[bocca001]

Just watched it, Mark. I can't help but wonder if you are a bit low on your estimate for the Paige pennant. That thing is great.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by bocca001

Just watched it, Mark. I can't help but wonder if you are a bit low on your estimate for the Paige pennant. That thing is great.

Probably so....

I haven't seen one turn up in an eternity, so imagine it would now go significantly higher at auction. The Paige pennant didn't seem to be all that rare up until 5-6 years ago.

When these things dry up, they really become scarce! I guess that's the only good thing about being old... I got to a lot of this stuff just in the nick of time!

[thetahat]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Probably so....

I haven't seen one turn up in an eternity, so imagine it would now go significantly higher at auction. The Paige pennant didn't seem to be all that rare up until 5-6 years ago.

When these things dry up, they really become scarce! I guess that's the only good thing about being old... I got to a lot of this stuff just in the nick of time!

Great stuff, Mark. Now if I could only find a pic of the Luke Easter pennant (in the style of the WGN Paige and Doby). Have you seen it?

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by thetahat

Great stuff, Mark. Now if I could only find a pic of the Luke Easter pennant (in the style of the WGN Paige and Doby). Have you seen it?

I've seen it a grand total of once in 30+ years. Seems like about 15 years ago and I think it went for about $1,400 back then. It was definitely in the same style as the Paige pennant. Would love to see another one surface some day!

[bocca001]

Here is a pic of the Luke Easter, from worthpoint.

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by bocca001

Here is a pic of the Luke Easter, from worthpoint.

So cool to see such a rarity.

[UKCardGuy]

Originally Posted by bocca001

Here is a pic of the Luke Easter, from worthpoint.

Wow!

[ooo-ribay]

“LUSCIOUS” Luke Easter!

[thetahat]

Originally Posted by bocca001

Here is a pic of the Luke Easter, from worthpoint.

Spectacular … a Holy Grail for sure.

As for the WGN Jackie pennant … mine lists him as “1st Baseman”, as do the others I’ve seen … do any reference him as a 2nd baseman?

EDIT: Yes! Worthpoint shows one, and also a version with no position ..

[ooo-ribay]

Today’s TSOG? Wow!

The fact that the one (and best IMO) Jackie Robinson pennant is probably the only to exist blows my mind.

It is a privilege to be “associated” with Mark and the rest of you guys!

[bocca001]

Found this on worthpoint today, when looking for something else. Don't recall seeing this label before. Worton Novelties.

[MK]

Originally Posted by bocca001

Found this on worthpoint today, when looking for something else. Don't recall seeing this label before. Worton Novelties.

My guess would be they didn’t make it, just sold it.

[bocca001]

Here are some others identified on worthpoint (or auction sites via Google) as having the Worton label. I know that Greg has talked about his belief that these are from an unknown NY maker. But Kyle believes some may be Trench (I think??).

[thetahat]

Originally Posted by bocca001

Here are some others identified on worthpoint (or auction sites via Google) as having the Worton label. I know that Greg has talked about his belief that these are from an unknown NY maker. But Kyle believes they are Trench (I think).

Great stuff from Marc. Domer and I have been having some great email discussions (i.e. Trench vs Non-Trench) and Worton cane up. Observe where the company was located:

[bocca001]

An ad from 1948

[ooo-ribay]

I think you guys have found a new maker! Bravo!

[Stupe the Second Sacker]

I'll take 100 football pennants for $15. Hell...Give me 200.

[erikc21]

Originally Posted by bocca001

These are all stamped American Knitwear. All mini pennants.

Referring back to the conversation around Post #6806

I recently picked up this mini New York Yankees American Knitwear pennant. It is very similar to the full-sized Keezer pennant I'm selling on eBay. I don't know where this conversation left off, but I wanted to provide these contributions.

[bocca001]

Thanks, Erik. Crossed bats seem to be a common theme in this series.

About Worton, I look forward to hearing more from Kyle and others. It is interesting that the ad talks about price per 100. Makes it seem like high volume. Based on what's available on worthpoint, seems like the Worton and Epstein labels are both pretty rare (maybe 10 examples of each). But Trench labels are also pretty rare. So how to tell the difference between a maker and a down the line seller?

[ooo-ribay]

With no real reasoning, I think Worton was a maker.

[Domer05]

Originally Posted by bocca001

About Worton, I look forward to hearing more from Kyle and others. [...] So how to tell the difference between a maker and a down the line seller?

My opinion: Worton was just a retailer; and these labels were merely his retailer's mark. From the limited universe of Worton-marked pennants I know of, he peddled a mixture of both Trench and AMCO pennants. That alone tells me he couldn't have made them all.

Additionally, unlike Epstein, there's no trade catalogue or phone directory identifying Worton as a manufacturer of pennants. Nothing. If they made all of these pennants, they were a significant manufacturer, and there should be some directory classifying them as a pennant maker.

Finally, as Greg pointed out, look at their location: across the street from old Yankee Stadium. Where there was plenty of foot traffic containing fans headed into the ballpark for baseball and football games. In other words, the ideal spot for a brick and mortar souvenir shop. In contrast, most of the 20th century NYC-based pennant makers, including Epstein, were clustered together in the Garment District, down by lower Manhattan. Nowhere near their end-users....

For me, the 1948 advertisement for football supplies seals the deal. Felt pennants were just one of several different novelty items they offered ... along with some complementary goods, e.g., pennant canes and charms; but also ... rabbits feet. That tells me they were a retail store, and to stay in business year round, they had to offer more than just felt pennants to their retail customers.

I've never heard of a single manufacturer making both pennants and rabbits feet, have you?

So, for me, they were just a retailer that sourced their felt pennants from a variety of makers over the years. Because they purchased so many each year, these makers rewarded them by sewing Worton's name on their pennants. It's really not too different from a concessionaire's mark. Not only were Trench (and others) known for doing this, it would explain why there's plenty more of these same pennants with no label on them, i.e., because they were purchased from another retail source.

[bocca001]

Hmm.. those are all good pieces of evidence and I want to believe. Being located in the garment business district may be the most convincing evidence to me that Epstein was a maker. I'm not so sure about the rabbits feet being evidence against Worton being a maker. The stuff people found for Epstein indicates that they sold other things too (e.g., feathers, "favors"), and I seem to recall that Keezer and ASCO made/sold many types of items. Especially buttons, which makes me think they also sold all of the types of things that came with the buttons (ribbons, charms, etc). I also did not recall anyone posting a catalog from Epstein.

I also don't have especially strong feelings about this one way or another (i.e., it does not matter to me if Worton is a maker or not). Just find it fun to have the discussions.

[Fballguy]

Interesting Epstein tag placement. You think that seamstress had an hourly quota?

[thetahat]

Originally Posted by bocca001

Hmm.. those are all good pieces of evidence and I want to believe. Being located in the garment business district may be the most convincing evidence to me that Epstein was a maker. I'm not so sure about the rabbits feet being evidence against Worton being a maker. The stuff people found for Epstein indicates that they sold other things too (e.g., feathers, "favors"), and I seem to recall that Keezer and ASCO made/sold many types of items. Especially buttons, which makes me think they also sold all of the types of things that came with the buttons (ribbons, charms, etc). I also did not recall anyone posting a catalog from Epstein.

I also don't have especially strong feelings about this one way or another (i.e., it does not matter to me if Worton is a maker or not). Just find it fun to have the discussions.

This won’t settle it, but it is worth noting that the “wide scroll” pennants like that on the Yankees above and also the Cindarella Boys Giants were also made for the Dodgers and all three were 1950-51. Don’t know if any other team has it. So that suggests a NYC manufacturer. But the flip side is, I don’t think all of the “Worton” pennants were made by the same maker, either. There are some very different styles with the same label.

[thetahat]

Speaking of Epstein, here’s a recent acquisition. This had ‘1942’ written on the spine in what seemed to be charcoal, and was easily lifted off the surface. If the date is legit it would put it in the NFL not AAFC.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by ooo-ribay

Today’s TSOG? Wow!

The fact that the one (and best IMO) Jackie Robinson pennant is probably the only to exist blows my mind.

It is a privilege to be “associated” with Mark and the rest of you guys!

Thanks Rob! And right back at you, for all your contributions and creating this thread! For anyone who wants to see it, here's a link...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DcdngWNoG6A&t=65s

As for the Worton "debate", I tend to believe they were simply a retail outlet for baseball/sports souvenirs. Just my 2 cents, based on what I originally believed in addition to the points that Kyle and Greg made.... the most convincing of which is the location adjacent to Yankee Stadium.

[thetahat]

One of the best ever Tigers pennants at a reasonable price, however the spine looks a bit unusual, as if it may not be sewn on as original. Be sure to inquire if interested, as there have been some transplants in circulation.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/37463391077..._XwYQ&LH_BIN=1

[thetahat]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Thanks Rob! And right back at you, for all your contributions and creating this thread! For anyone who wants to see it, here's a link...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DcdngWNoG6A&t=65s

As for the Worton "debate", I tend to believe they were simply a retail outlet for baseball/sports souvenirs. Just my 2 cents, based on what I originally believed in addition to the points that Kyle and Greg made.... the most convincing of which is the location adjacent to Yankee Stadium.

Mark: Outstanding timely video and undoubtedly the only collection with all four Jackie-dedicated pennants.

[thetahat]

Originally Posted by bocca001

Thanks, Erik. Crossed bats seem to be a common theme in this series.

About Worton, I look forward to hearing more from Kyle and others. It is interesting that the ad talks about price per 100. Makes it seem like high volume. Based on what's available on worthpoint, seems like the Worton and Epstein labels are both pretty rare (maybe 10 examples of each). But Trench labels are also pretty rare. So how to tell the difference between a maker and a down the line seller?

Marc, is it correct that this pennant here was advertised as having the Worton label? Because I am about 99.9% confident that this is a WGN production. If Worton slapped a tag on it then I think we have an answer.

[bocca001]

Hey Greg- I went back and checked the auction site (Heritage) and it seems pretty clear that it was this Yankees pennant below (which was in a second set of pics) that matched the description of having a Worton tag. And it fits with respect to style. Good catch. Seems like the pennants in this style are usually 3/4 or so in size.

[ooo-ribay]

Originally Posted by thetahat

Marc, is it correct that this pennant here was advertised as having the Worton label? Because I am about 99.9% confident that this is a WGN production. If Worton slapped a tag on it then I think we have an answer.

If, as Kyle surmises, Worton retailed pennants for Trench, AMCO and others, I don’t think Worton would be the ones to “slap on” their tag. If that was the case, there would be overlapping stitching. I can only think Worton would have sent their tags to the maker i.e. “Please supply us with 100 Yankees pennants; here’s 100 tags.” Yes?

[Domer05]

Originally Posted by ooo-ribay

If, as Kyle surmises, Worton retailed pennants for Trench, AMCO and others, I don’t think Worton would be the ones to “slap on” their tag. If that was the case, there would be overlapping stitching. I can only think Worton would have sent their tags to the maker i.e. “Please supply us with 100 Yankees pennants; here’s 100 tags.” Yes?

That makes the most sense. Just like the concessionaire's marks, which were typically screened on to the pennant by the maker during the screen printing process; or, printed on the the reverse-side of the photo by the maker in the case of a photo pennant.

Why hire two seamstresses, right?

[thetahat]

Originally Posted by ooo-ribay

If, as Kyle surmises, Worton retailed pennants for Trench, AMCO and others, I don’t think Worton would be the ones to “slap on” their tag. If that was the case, there would be overlapping stitching. I can only think Worton would have sent their tags to the maker i.e. “Please supply us with 100 Yankees pennants; here’s 100 tags.” Yes?

Well, yes, of course. I really wasn’t intending to be specific regarding who did the actual “slapping”.

[thetahat]

I’ll add that I don’t think any of the above pictured pennants were made by Trench.

[thetahat]

Bumping the thread to post something that only I care about … got this ‘69 cloth ASCO on the very cheap. They made a bunch of playoff team pennants … at least five for just the Mets. Orioles are tougher, Twins extremely tough (I’ve seen only one, badly trimmed), and never saw Braves.

Still have never seen the A’s on cloth, only felt.

[UKCardGuy]

That's a nice one Greg. The Orioles have a lot of nice pennants from between 1968 - 1972.

Here's a few new arrivals for me this week. The colours on the 48 WS pennant stood out to me even though the tip is blunted.

[ooo-ribay]

Originally Posted by thetahat

Bumping the thread to post something that only I care about … got this ‘69 cloth ASCO on the very cheap. They made a bunch of playoff team pennants … at least five for just the Mets. Orioles are tougher, Twins extremely tough (I’ve seen only one, badly trimmed), and never saw Braves.

Still have never seen the A’s on cloth, only felt.

Black and orange is a good color scheme.

You've got a real eagle eye to find those cloth pennants. I found a cloth Giants but someone else had to point it out to me.

[bocca001]

Nice Indians pennants!

Greg- do those 1969 cloth pennants come in different colors for the same teams? Or is it just one color per team?

[thetahat]

Originally Posted by bocca001

Nice Indians pennants!

Greg- do those 1969 cloth pennants come in different colors for the same teams? Or is it just one color per team?

Marc if you mean the ASCO series, I’ve have different colors for the Cubs (red, white), Twins (red, blue), Indians (white, 1970-stamped blue). Cubs also have many variations of the 1969 “Cub Power” pennants. Also two different white Orioles.