Joseph M Pankiewicz, you are a disgrace to this hobby!

[D.P.Johnson]

Originally Posted by EvilKing00

hmmm don't think any one said it yet, so I guess I have to, lol buy the card not the grade, lol.

Anyway just my 2 pennies below.....

I do buy graded cards BUT I buy the card and not its grade. I like buying graded cards because it at least authenticates the card for me. (that is if someone didn't fake the slab, or crack it and replace a fake card)

I am NO EXPERT, and I hope all the graded cards I buy are "REAL" cards. The eye appeal I can judge for my self.

Agree. However, the sad thing is, with the way cards are photoshopped and/or manipulated by some seller's nowadays, a buyer can't always tell by a scan exactly what a card truly looks like. Thus, unless a person buys every single card in person, they never know exactly what they're going to get until it arrives in the mail...

[EvilKing00]

Originally Posted by D.P.Johnson

Agree. However, the sad thing is, with the way cards are photoshopped and/or manipulated by some seller's nowadays, a buyer can't always tell by a scan exactly what a card truly looks like. Thus, unless a person buys every single card in person, they never know exactly what they're going to get until it arrives in the mail...

agreed, I recently bought a T205, that "looked like the red ink was missing, as the red was DEFF Orange. When I got the card it was RED. Seller took it back though.

[vintagetoppsguy]

This post is somewhat related to the topic at hand. I don't want to beat a dead horse, but felt this was worth mentioning and really didn't want to start another thread to do so, so I just posted it here. Take a look at this '34 Goudey. What once was a PSA 6.5 is now an SGC 8.5.







Here are the things to look for:
1.) Faint white "triangle" shape mark on stomach of the silhouette of the ballplayer (on right) in the yellow background.
2.) White dot on left player silhouette in background.
3.) Numerous stray marks between #37 and Lou Gehrig on back of card
4.) Marks below the "h" in Gehrig on the signature on back of card.
5.) Marks below the words "left-handed" on back of card.

I said it in the other thread and I'll say it again. I've had several bumps over the years and I realize cards get bumped every day, but nothing like this. I would love to sit down with the grader from PSA and the grader from SGC and ask each one of them what they saw that determined their opinion on the grade of this card. It sickens my stomach that we're paying these "professionals" to give us their opinion, when their opinion can make the difference of thousands of dollars on any given day.

All that said, I don't think this is a Joe P bump. Otherwise, he would have consigned it to Probstein (anything is possible I guess though). I would like to know if Bussineau is the owner of this card or just a consignor and would also love to know who owned it at the time it was bumped from a 6.5 to an 8.5.

[WhenItWasAHobby]

It does appear to be the same card, especially when viewing all the tiny print flaws on the back. The upper right front corner (or upper left rear corner) appears to have gotten noticeably sharper and that same corner has that "batwing" look. Very bothersome indeed.

[GasHouseGang]

I believe the Gehrigs are the same card, but something happened to it between PSA and SGC. The back discoloration seen in the PSA holder is gone as seen in the SGC holder. It's possible that it is because of the scanner setting, but it looks like it has been cleaned.

[Sean1125]

How does this not reflect on the grading companies more than anything?

[bigfanNY]

In April of this year I found at the bottom of a box twelve pieces of what once were a Louisville Slugger Poster from the 1939-1941. I put the pieces together and marveled at nice the poster once looked. I searched online for a person who restored Movie posters. There were many and I narrowed my search down and chose a man named Dario from Vancouver Canada. He said he could restore the piece and it would take eight to ten hours of work. When I got the poster back I took it to a reputable art dealer who dealt in prints to frame and preserve the Poster. You can see the result below. Up close you can see what appear to be folds along the lines he repaired. But from a foot or so away you judge. What was done to this poster can and is done to cards all the time. (Search on Dick Towle) Paper items can and I believe sometimes should be restored and preserved. If it is not it will deteriorate and your grandchildren will be left with dust instead of The history of baseball as it was recorded (In Paper form) for most of it's first 100 or so years. Now for me a baseball card collector for many years I will not even clean the gum or wax off of a card just never did so never will. But others do. In about 1975 I visited the Metropolitan Museum of art and they brought out the Burdick Album with T cards and in there was The Wagner displayed on a stamp hinge so that you could look at the back. I have seen that card later and there is no trace of the hinge. They can and did restore their card. People do and some very rare cards and posters would be lost if they were not restored. BUT ANY ETHICAL SELLER SHOULD ABSOLUTLY ALERT BUYERS TO THE RESTORATION. And any buyer should be aware that this could happen to ANY card and it would be very very difficult to detect. This has been the state of our hobby since the get. And I for one still love this stuff but find it hard to like many of the people who sell this stuff for a living. Alerting each other to folks who are looking to get over is necessary and thank you Vintagetopps guy for spending the time to help the rest of us on this message board.

MHO

Jonathan

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Sean1125

How does this not reflect on the grading companies more than anything?

Obviously it does not reflect well on them, but it also speaks more fundamentally to the problem of (likely) rampant card doctoring. To some extent, yes, the issue is inconsistent grading and the same cards -- without alteration -- can and do get different grades. I have seen some incredible journeys within a 3 grade range for the same card simply cracked out and resubmitted. But I think more often than not, what's going on with these bumps is that someone has improved the card.

[the 'stache]

The problem as I see it, gentlemen, is widespread indifference within the hobby. It's not just one or two sellers with questionable ethics, or a particular tpg accepting cards from these sellers, that should draw our ire here (though I am certainly not above cracking a bad egg or two publicly). There is an all-encompassing malaise that nurtures this kind of unethical behavior, and the biggest companies within the industry seem perfectly content to keep things the way they are. Topps, with it's exclusive rights to MLB licensing through 2020, is making money, even as the overall quality of their product has fallen off a cliff. Ebay is making money hand over fist. The tpgs are making their money, one cracked slab resubmission at a time. The auction houses are making their money. And these crooked sellers are making money, too. And while it is not easily proven, it is quite possible that at least some of these participants within the industry are acting in concert. But whatever their intentions, whether or not there is any collusion, their apathy is greatly detrimental to the hobby. Until these major players change their way of doing business, honest hobbyists will continue to suffer.

Look how long it took PSA to change their slabs. I returned to the baseball card hobby a little over three years ago, and it didn't take long after seeing my first graded card to discover how easily these cases could be cracked, leaving little to no evidence of chicanery. PSA continued to insist that their "tamper evident" slabs sufficiently deterred crooks, but the videos on Youtube showed otherwise. So, not only were collectors doling out huge sums of money for another person's expert opinion, now they had to worry about the very authenticity of the cards they were buying. I was horrified by PSA's indifference to the issue, as I'm sure many of you have been.

Knowing what we know, why would anybody want to get into our hobby for the first time? Kids aren't doing it, because companies like Topps, Donruss, and Upper Deck priced them out of the market. When I was a child, I'd get a couple bucks from my dad, go down to the local card shop, and buy some packs. Then, I'd come home, and trade with my friends. Kids can't afford to spend $100 on a box that has 10 cards inside. And if kids aren't getting into the hobby, they're not likely to invest in vintage or pre-war cards when they are older.

The hobby is saturated with the stench of greed, and crookedness. If we're ever going to see positive change, we need to band together, and exercise our buying power. Or, we'll just continue to get more of the same. More Josephs, and more tpgs not delivering what they promise.

[atx840]

[nsaddict]

Nice profit for pank...hey buys the 7, resubmits and receives an 8. Same card for sure!


http://tinyurl.com/mqoyxfg

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Originally Posted by atx840

That's a terrific before and after comparison! Thanks for posting that.

Has the SGC Gehrig been sold? If so, that promises be a rather stiff buy-back if the buyer is aware of the problem and pursues that route. One would think that losing $10K or $15K on a card should hopefully change the way the grading company screens cards and screens submitters.