Can someone explain "paper stock" to me..

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Posted By: Goudey Guy

I used to see many items listed in the ungraded pre-1950 section of Ebay for "paper stock" cards, but never really understood their origin or relation to real cards. Then I didn't see any for awhile. The other day I was browsing through graded material, for which I do not buy, and I noticed auctions for "paper stock" items again. I'm well aware that these are not cataloged vintage baseball cards in the true sense, but was wondering if some of the experts out there could explain what exactly these items are. I'm under the impression that these are media pictures, cut from various newspapers, books, and other reading curriculum.

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Posted By: ty_cobb

Please post which auction numbers you are looking at.
Often I've seen AAA 'grading' newspaper cutouts.
Seems to be an infestation of these non-cards lately.
To me the term 'paper stock' is more correctly applied
to real cards such as a variety of T213s distingushed
from T213-2 cardboard stock.

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Posted By: leon

The term paper stock, when referring to a real card and not an AAA-Libertforall sham, is a card that is on paper thin stock ie....T213-1&3, T216 VE type 2, E103's, E105 Mello Mints, etc.....however, I would be careful of the folks cutting up vintage mags and advertising their pieces of paper as "cards on paper stock"....to me they are bogus and the roof will cave in on that sham eventually......best regards

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Posted By: Dan Mathewson

...of LibertyForAll, et al, take a look at this Yahoo Auctions thread.

http://search.auctions.shopping.yahoo.com/search/auc?p=mathewson&st=auct&alocale=0us&acc=us>

Take a alook at Yahoo auction # 68797177. It is the piece of shaat 1930 Whitman #5 Christy Mathewson Graded NASA 9 that's been on eBay. It has a Buy It Now price of $500. (CRIMINY!!!)

Look at the name of the seller on this one, folks. It is Roy Huff. Our infamous yak-yak from Hawaii, living right next door to AAA Grading in Honolulu, HI. Now he's just using his name to sell.

Then, get a load of this. Look at item # 69085794 listed right below it. It's title is 1919 Cristy Mathewson SPALDING Graded AAA NM-MT 8. (Learn to spell Christy correctly Roy, you yak...) This seller's new Yahoo selling name is: pacificvintagesports (unrated). Location...Honolulu. What a shock. But, the BIN price for this hunk o' shaat is much more reasonable at $99.99 (gag).

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Posted By: Goudey Guy

As I don't generally like to drop names, especially when I just have a question, I withheld pointing out certain ebay sellers in my original question. The seller that one of you alluded to is selling the type of "paper stock" I was reffering my question to. I see that he also sells on Yahoo as well. I was just wondering what his material was or where it was from?
Again, I'm not going to put down or discriminate against someone selling these types of items. I just wanted to get a couple of "professional" responses because I don't know exactly what these items are. As I am new to your board, I do not know any of you, and would like to put forth my submitions with class and respect for what the other guy has to say, and don't want to offend anyone.

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Posted By: Dan Mathewson

...this last posting was edited so the entire thing is a (unusable) link.

Here is the good link in case you are interested.

http://search.auctions.shopping.yahoo.com/search/auc?p=mathewson&st=auct&alocale=0us&acc=us>

-dan

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Posted By: Dan Mathewson

...is someone who takes an old magazine or newspaper, which he buys for $5 or $10 at a garage sale or finds in his attic, then takes out hsi trusty exacto and starts carving photos out of it. He then has them slabbed and calls them authentic "Spaulding" or "Whitman" cards. The names come from the photographer or the periodical, whatever sounds best.

If the dude can't find a company to slab them, though, or he thinks they charge him too much, what's better than to make your own slabbing company, and name it after a car association, like AAA (or whatever else you come up with...)

And then, start grading and slabbing your own work.

This seller lives about two blocks away from AAA in Honolulu. Coincidence? More than coincidence. What if someone calls the AAA Grading phone number from their website and asks for this guy by name...and...voila! The response is "he's not in right now, but should be in this afternoon..." Well well well. You now have the seller of these slabbed items under all these different usernames working in the grading company office which slabs them.

Where I take severe issue with the particular auction sites (like eBay) is this: these are not cards, but they always appear under the collectibles/sports cards/graded (or ungraded) categories. These are not cards. They are worthless photos cut out of magazine pages being foisted onto not-so-educated people in the arena. When I first got onto eBay and knew very little about this, I bought one of these pieces of shaat -- a 1911 Pictoral News C Mathewson Ad Card. NASA Grade 10 (HM). Gladly, I only paid $12.00 for it. All it does is look neat, because it happens to be a neat pose of Christy. It is otherwise worthless. A lesson learned...

I have to be a happy, though...in looking for this garbage in Yahoo Auctions today, i did find a 1909 Matty Domino Disk which appeared by the scan to be in NM-MT condition. I don't have one yet. It's BIN price was only $96.00. So, I jumped on that and snagged it. Made my day...

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Posted By: Goudey Guy

for your explanation. Also to the others for your responses. I knew that they had to be media of some sort, but wasn't sure of the companies who have graded this stuff. I don't have any issues with anyone cutting out pictures and selling them as pictures, but posting them under the vintage card section, and putting a deceiving "paper stock" name to them, is fraudulent. I haven't been burned by one of these auctions, but rather curious about their origins. As some very nice vintage baseball cards were removed from the sides of candy boxes and other mediums, I wanted to get more technical information. It seems the main seller of these pieces is looking stretch the boudaries of our hobby, which to me, is a real problem, especially for those just starting out. I have an infinate care for beginners in our hobby. They are not to be taken lightly, cheated, or treated as less. New collectors will always be the foundation for the stability and future of our hobby.

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Posted By: leon

It is understandable why you would not want to call those ebay scammers on their scam as you seem to be fairly new to the board. As you have noticed there are some experienced folks on here with tons of info...I have been very happy on numerous occasions in finding out extremely esoteric info very quickly...but the reason for this response is to let you know that most cards that are cut out from true boxes and strips are considered cards in the classsic sense..the strip cards are generally classified as "W" by desigination and the cut out cards are denoted by whatever they came from ie ...cut from candy box= "E-uncatalogued", cut out from an ice cream carton "F-uncatalgued", cut out from twentieth century tobacco container = "T-Unc"...etc.....best regards and again welcome aboard

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Posted By: runscott

is that the Dutch spelling?

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Posted By: Dan Mathewson

...the classic 1930 Post Sports Stars Christy Mathewson, a catalogued card which is cut from the 1930 Post Bran Flakes ceral box. Christy was the only baseball player (from what I recall reading) featured in that series. (Someone correct me if that is incorrect, please). They were featured 4-at-a-time, in a grid, on the back of the box. Christy was featured with Andrew Jackson, Daniel Boone and Pocahantas, under the heading "Famous Americans". For some reason, though, he is classified as the 1930 Post Sports Stars. Kinda cool... I have three of the cards, plus one full sheet of all 4 still together. Then, last month on eBay, I actually snagged a complete cereal box with all four on the back (sans the top flaps) still, very cool though.

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Posted By: Leon Corrector Daniels

with the type of material used to create the paper.
PAPAYA,for example is a stock inwhich paper is formed.

leon is yahooing about the quality and/or gauge or grade of the stock....but not the stock itself.....

also,paper has various color grades in addition to thickness as described by lord leon.

and speaking of stock~ since it came out with a report of not going to make the eranings today......the bad news is out so of course in a few days the stock will be listed as a buy: thatis "SUNW" sunmicrosystems


buy low.....sell high! like I did with the Tango Brand Egg cards!

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Posted By: David

In cases where an item is cut off of something larger, the removed item can be considered a trading card if the issuer intended it to be removed and to be a card. The 1975 Hostess cards are trading cards, as Hostess intended them to be removed and to be cards. There are dotted lines surrounding the cards and they were clearly advertised as removable trading cards. The same goes for the 1960s Post cards and most strip cards. For this reasoning, ordinary pictures or card sized ads in a newspaper or magazine are not trading cards, and this ordinarilly keeps their value low (not neccesarilly worthless). A nice old cutout picture may have some value, and if a collector wants to buy for a few bucks one of his favorite old time player and put in a picture frame that's great. The problem is that some beginning collectors incorectly price these items as if they were trading cards, which they will eventually find out is an error.

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Posted By: runscott

The common portrait was clearly meant to be cut out and redeemed, but does that make it a card? The others appear to just be designs on the box, so are they cards?

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Posted By: Julie Vognar

"paper stock," besides being all those phoney things, is a way to describe stuf printed on paper instead of cardboard. Like M101-1s, M101-2s, Haper's woodcuts. etc. These are perfeftly legitimate issues.

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Posted By: runscott

AAA (Libertyforall) and NASA have taken a legitimate term and abused it.

"paper stock" is a self-descriptive term. If a card is on paper-stock it should be easy to deduce what you are dealing with. And as Julie said, it's a very useful term when dealing with ANY printed item, not just cards.

take-home lesson: filter "AAA" and "NASA" out of all your ebay searches.

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Posted By: David

Whether card or not, cutouts of any kind usually have supressed prices, as collectors generally consider them inferior to the factory cut card. Though rather ugly, the Schapira cards are scarce yet inexpensive. This is probably due to the fact that the were cutouts, may or may not be real cards are a ugly. The Allen & Ginters cut from albums are actually much rarer than the actual cards, but are substantially cheaper.

The only exception to the rule are the Darby Chocolates. The values of these blow my mind. but, apparently, these have tickled the hobby's collective fancy.

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Posted By: David

As illustrated by some of the AAA realized prices, it is common for the newbie or non-collector to compare apples and oranges.

When trying to value the baseball found in the attic, non-collectors commonly compare it to the $3 million McGwire 70HR ball or the $100,000 Carlton Fisk 75WS ball. When compared to the $3 million, $10,000 for the foul ball one caught at County Stadium seems more than resonable.

I told an elderly man that his nice baseball was probably worth about $5,000, and he got mad at me because he had a copy of the article about the sale of the Fisk ball. I thought to myself, "I hate to break it to you, buddy, but $5,000 is a lot of money for a stinking baseball."

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Posted By: fkw

Leon is closest in my opinion. V61-1, T216-3 Kotton "Paper", T213-1, T213-3, E105, E97 B&W, 1940s Cuban issues, 1941 Playball "Paper", etc, are all considered "Paper Stock" issues, as opposed to normal card stock (cardboard) cards from similar related sets (ie T213-2, T216, V61-2, E97, 1941 Playball, etc.). There are a few PreWar sets that made cards with both cardboard or paper stock, and "paper stock" is just a way to distinguish the 2 types.
All that bogus AAA cut out newspaper magazine garbage is not paper stock cards, they are just scraps of magazines, and completely worthless. Frank