1910 Orange Borders debate and info

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Posted By: dan mckee

I am helping Dan out and doing a little editing for him (leon)

I did a small write up on the variances of the Orange Border issue. These are just my opinions and I would like to open it up for comments and debate.
Ok here goes a little more info on the Niles (below). I am going to stick to my guns and stay with it being an Orange Border.
I scanned a few variances in some of mine:

Note the background if the Niles to the Speaker, though most Orange borders have a solid background, these 2 are similar.
Look at the background on the Doyle, that is by far the most detailed background I have seen in this issue.

Next, look at Doyle's name, all in white letters when most Orange borders come in all black letters.
Now look at McGraw's name, half black and white. All McGraws are like this as I have access to 2 others.

Most Orange borders have just a last name in all caps, but look at the Cobb, 1st and last name.

Finally, take a look at the right side corners of the McGraw, notice the rounding of the white frame.

Though the Niles corners are rounded more, I still believe this is an Orange border. As you can see, there are many other variances across the issue and the Niles has many similarities. Wife is screaming at me to get on the honey-do list, gotta run Dan.

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Posted By: leon

Nice write up Dan...here are my only 2....

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Nice holder on that Plank, Leon. Maybe when GAI opens on Monday you could get them to change it to a man's holder.



PS: I'm on the fence about the Niles being an Orange border...

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Posted By: Rob Dewolf

For what it's worth:

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Posted By: leon

I am leaning towards this not being an Orange Border for the following reasons:

1. The most notable exception, to me, is the rounded borders.
2. The letters in his name are different than all of the other 9 shown. There are a few shading variances but nothing like the deliberate, specific shading of the Niles.
3. The border itself just doesn’t look quite right with respect to the way the red is colored on it. It doesn’t "look" like the others though I don’t care to try to pinpoint it.
4. All of the other 9 have fairly nice borders, without too much wear on them…..They might be uneven from the mandatory hand cut, but there's not much wear; and this from at least 4 different groups.
5. Even when taking the size of the scan into consideration, Niles seems to be cropped to have a larger caricature than all of the rest.

Given those thoughts I think there is a reasonable chance it’s not an Orange Border.
regards

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Posted By: Joe D.

IMO - Niles is not an Orange Border.

The rounded corners....
the type being different....
and the amount of 'white' within the whole Niles card -
lead me to believe it was a different issue.


I hate to disagree with you on this issue... because you are the guru - and definitely have more experience with the set than I do.
But - I say Niles is not the same issue as the others.


*The other possibility is that the candy company had a longer run with this concept (in terms of years). Possibly the front design of the box changed slightly / rounded edges on any border design / typeface changing / and maybe a different way to combine the two colors used (and they applied those slight changes to the player card portion as well).... So, they could all be 'Orange Borders' just one is Orange Borders-1 and one is Orange Borders-2.


I would love to see them in person, side-by-side to do a good comparison.

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Posted By: dan mckee

Awesome input guys! I love it. I can't argue with any of your valid points. I can ask that you keep in mind that I do not own the Niles and I didn't scan it so the different color on the border may just be the scanner. I agree that the round corners are a huge discrepency and hey, please do disagree with me as this is an educational friendly debate.

Are we all on board that the Doyle is an Orange Border? Dano

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Posted By: Joe D.

Doyle looks okay to me.

The orange just ran a bit darker (unless it is the scan)..... otherwise it looks very consistent with the others.

The knockout type doesn't bother me a bit.... looks like a design decision against the darker background.

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Posted By: ErlandStevens

I've never owned or seen one in person, so I have no credibility here. Still, I don't think they look all that different. The Niles does stand out with the rounded borders, but several of the others (especially the McGraw) have rounded white borders. If Niles is on the same paper stock as other bona fide orange borders, then Niles has a more similarities than differences. It's not like all the other cards are 100% self consistent. I think it's easier to believe that Niles is a odd orange border than a previously unknown issue.

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Posted By: fkw

Compare the backs.

If you have another to compare too. On back check the surface of the cardboard, the color, texture, thickness, etc.

Thats what I would do.

Also match up the photo area and see if its the same width and length.

Also look at the orange under magnification and see if it looks like the same quality ink.

Like Erland said, Some of these cards have slightly rounded photo corners, but the Niles is so much more.

I guess Orange Border, mainly because of the slightly tinted photo (face, background), and caption being exactly like an Orange Border, plus the borders are orange What else would it be???

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Posted By: Bruce Babcock

Not an Orange Border, but this Lajoie shares the same pose as Rob's OB.

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Posted By: Rob Dewolf

Bruce,

It seems a shame that those two Lajoies aren't together, doesn't it?

Rob

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Posted By: MW

I think Dan's original contention is correct and I agree with him that the Niles likely belongs to the Orange border series.

The similarities with the inner image being bordered by a thin black line and then larger white line are too coincidental to ignore. Also, the background imagery and shading on the Niles is very similar to that of the Speaker. The rounded corners are immaterial; they may have been clipped off and/or subjected to wear.

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Posted By: Bruce Babcock

Rob, feel free to ship your Lajoie to me!

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Posted By: leon

It's not the outside corners as much as the inside ones being curved, that are so different. As long as we can have the leap of faith that it is a uniquely printed and unique looking Orange Border then I agree.....so I politely disagree...These were on a box and I can't take that leap far enough to say it's an OB, due to all of them I have seen, which in totality is probably 30-40....and none like Niles...sorry.....I am not convinced...interesting debate though. regards

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Posted By: Rob Dewolf

Rob, feel free to ship your Lajoie to me!

Oddly enough, that's not the solution I had come up with.

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Posted By: MW

Leon,

I see what you're saying about the "inner" corners but there are too many other similarities, imo. All of the other basic design elements are identical or so similar that the worst I think a collector could do is call it a second series card. I find it somewhat unlikely that a separate manufacturer would have produced both cards unless the original printing presses were sold and then reused.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

I suspect a review of the back of the Niles might clinch this debate one way or the other.

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Posted By: Joe D.

It is the inside corners of the Niles that are different.

.....This inside difference was most definitely a purposeful design difference. It points to a different issue (either by the same company or another company).


Other things to point out:
..... The name "NILES" has a white knockout shadow to it. This is unique. All other Orange Borders that I have seen either have knockout for the name (Doyle shown) or Black that overprints the Orange or some of the letters in black and some knockout..... but I have never seen Black letters that do not overprint the color below as we see in the NILES. For those who unsure of what I mean by overprinting.... overprinting means that there is orange ink under the black ink. Wether the blank ink lays down or not... you will not notice that it is missing and you will not see where the letters should go.

Evidence backing up what I am saying can be found in Orange Borders cards with poor registration.... although the black may need to move in one direction - it wouldn't matter - you wouldn't see any knockout letters in the card (where the black should be) because the black overprints. The McGraw is an interesting example of black and knockout letters in the same name. The card itself has poor registration. The black needs to move to the right - - - YET we do not see a white "Mc".... which means the black portion of the name is set to overprint the orange. I have seen a bunch of poorly registered Orange Borders - and if there is black type for the name - it has ALWAYS overprinted the orange.

.... As FKW mentioned - we should compare the backs. Comparing these cards in person would be very helpful. Maybe Ben can post the back of the NILES card?

.... The 'whiteness' in general in the NILES card bothers me a bit. The paper used for Orange Borders cards is not white... it is almost cardboard box color. The NILES card has too much whiteness throughout the image. (this of course is better judged in person).



My vote is that these are different issues. Whether or not the same or a different company put out the different issues - I have no idea.

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Posted By: dan mckee

Backs may help but also may not. The Uncle Jacks set has 3 different cardboard types and the baseball bats have 2 different. I will try to bum a scan of the back from my bud. Great input from everyone! I really appreciate the effort put into this thread. Dan.

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Posted By: Joe D.

"Backs may help but also may not. The Uncle Jacks set has 3 different cardboard types and the baseball bats have 2 different."

thanks for throwing that monkey-wrench!

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Posted By: leon

The baseball bats have 3 versions....what most folks don't know (or probably don't care about) is that the the W-unc 1932 Chicago cards have 2 completely different kinds of stock too.....

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Posted By: George

Here are some of my Orange Borders. In my opinion, the Niles does not have the "look and feel" of an Orange Border, primarily because of the rounded corners. But I agree that the strongest indicator would be to carefully examine the cardboard, and compare the Niles to a known Orange Border for color, texture, fiber content and similar characteristics. If these characteristics differ, that would strongly suggest that it is not an Orange Border.

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Posted By: Joe D.

those are beauties!

I was hoping someone would show that Wagner. Great card!

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

George, great cards. Did they come from a single owner if you know? They are trimmed in almost the identical manner. Very interesting.

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Posted By: George

Jeff,

I bought them as a group in 1980 from a retired airline pilot in Florida. He told me that they were originally collected by his father who had recently passed away, and the cards were part of his personal effects. The pilot did not become aware of them until after his father died. The pilot was not a baseball fan or a card collector, but he did learn the value of the cards. The main part of the collection was about 300 T206's, including a nice Plank. The Orange Borders were basically a "throw-in." There were also a few caramel cards.

George

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Ahh..makes sense. Nice pickup!

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Posted By: dan mckee

Joe D, if you ever want to see that Wagner pose you can always click on the "ME" next to ID on ebay - r337man.

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Posted By: DD

If Niles is not part of the Orange Borders set, just what set is it from?

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Posted By: Joe D.

the 'me' link on eBay.... you are showing some incredible stuff!
all very cool.


DD - that is a very good question. My guess is that it was the same company... but a packaging redesign (a different issue). I have seen a bunch of 'orange borders' but I have yet to see another that looked like the Niles. Its a mystery card.

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Posted By: dan mckee

I just received this from a long time collector, an old timer, a non-grading phsycho, a true knowledgable baseball card person.

All that argued with me, take your lumps as I actually know what I am doing once in a while!

I am a long-time collector who visits Network 54 occasionally
and
noticed your post on one of my favorite sets -- Orange-Bordered candy
cards. Since I have a copy of the Niles you illustrated, I can confirm
that
the cardboard is consistent with other Orange-Borders in my collection
and
the back is the same shade of gray. Unless someone finds a complete box
with Niles, we will never be sure that card was issued by the same
firm,
but there is sufficient evidence that that is the case. Besides the
cardboard consistency, rounded inner borders also are exhibited by
Davis,
Magee, McConnell and Steinfeldt in my collection and white highlights
on
the name are evident on Leach and Miller. Many of these cards also have
a
hint of background (stands, trees, buildings). The similarities between
these divergent Orange-Borders to those generally accepted as part of
the
set are sufficient to make "same set" a logical conclusion -- size,
blank
back, orange borders, thin white inner border, hand-lettered name
(usually
last name only) and team affiliation generally accounted for only on
the
uniform. My guess would be a "second series" following the more common
Cobbs, Wagners, Mathewsons, Planks, etc. Of course, a "knockoff" is
possible, but that seems unlikely since most of the players depicted
were
"second tier." Why make a set of Doyles, Millers and McConnells with
few if
any stars.

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Posted By: Joe D.

More cards like the Niles! very cool.

I would have to agree with your friend...

I think we have evidence of a "second series".

Now all we have to do is find a couple of uncut boxes

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Posted By: leon

Thanks Dan....but to date I still haven't personally seen any others like the Niles. If there are more then that's great. Maybe they came on some other type of candy box from the same mfg? Would love to see the others to compare... best regards

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Posted By: dan mckee

He has an uncut box with Plank on 1 side and a team on the other. I think each box came with a player and 1 of the teams making the teams much more common. Just a thought. I am hoping to meet up with him to do some trades and then I will try to grab some pictures. I like the 2nd series idea as well. Very interesting stuff! Dan.

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Posted By: Kyle

Goodwin has a bunch of these cards in their next auction, several of which weren't posted or discussed earlier in the thread. Pretty neat stuff to look at. Would be really cool to see the old package.

-Kyle