Shoeless Joe Jackson

[mintacular]

Hi everyone, as some of you might know, I'm sorta a novice to pre-war collecting and this era and mostly just know some conventional wisdom... Anyway, I was watching Ken Burns documentary (and I don't want to debate that film per se or Burns himself as I have already asked about that) and to me it seems undisputatble that Joe participated in throwing that series...

So I guess what I'm trying to get at with this thread is that assuming that this version is true (i.e. Joe and others participated in throwing the WS) why in the world would you want to collect his cards/memorablia? It seems to be the ultimate sin to commit this crime of direct cheating and so whatever his overall #'s why would you want to own anything of this guy? Why are his cards such big sellers? I mean atleast Pete Rose (and to some extent Barry Bonds) you could argue were less than moral characters but did not directly throw games...Thus, why is he such a big seller? Seems like he should be the last guy you want to have in your PC. Plz explain...

[Matt]

I don't recall the conclusive evidence he had that Joe participated in the fix. His .375 BA in the Series certainly wouldn't lead you to believe so.

[mintacular]

Again, I have not studied this issue at any length but you would think that Burns would've mentioned some "debate" to this issue but instead it seems (according to Burns) 99% certain Joe was in for the first few games but then maybe changed course midway through the series (when the $ wasn't dlvd) and tried to win the series albeit it too late.

According to the Burns version Joe's wife said it was a horrible thing and my impression was that Jackson never really denied his involvement...So I guess I don't really want to debate the facts of the case per se but more why would you want to own cards of this guy?

Are his cards popular because...

1. There is dispute over whether Jackson was involved
2. His #'s are so huge it doesn't matter
3. Name recognition due to the scandal
4. Other

[fkw]

Ty Cobb, Tris Speaker, and Smokey Joe Wood "fixed" games too, and Pete Rose bet on baseball................. and people LOVE to collect their cards too.

I like Jackson for what he did on the field, stat wise.

plus he doesnt have that many cards because of the Era he played in.... just after T206 and before E121...... Not many cards in the teens.

I also like Barry Bonds for what he did between the lines too.

My favorite players are guys that dominated at throwing the ball, hitting the ball, catching the ball, and running the bases....
very simple

[quinnsryche]

Originally Posted by fkw

I also like Barry Bonds for what he did between the lines too.

Problem with that is he cheated to inflate his stats. None of the other players did anything to make themselves better at baseball. That's the shame of Bonds, McGwire, Sosa etc. x1000 others. No HOF, remove the records, forget about those cheats and let's move on. Maris is the single season HR champ, Aaron is the all time HR champ. Anyone caught doing that should get what Rose and Jackson got, BANNED. McGwire admitted it, Sosa busted, Arod busted and Bonds will get what he's got coming to him next year in court. I hope they throw the book at that jackass. He's the worst thing since segregation to ever happen to baseball's glorious history. SCREW BARRY BONDS!

[M's_Fan]

Originally Posted by quinnsryche

Problem with that is he cheated to inflate his stats. None of the other players did anything to make themselves better at baseball. That's the shame of Bonds, McGwire, Sosa etc. x1000 others. No HOF, remove the records, forget about those cheats and let's move on. Maris is the single season HR champ, Aaron is the all time HR champ. Anyone caught doing that should get what Rose and Jackson got, BANNED. McGwire admitted it, Sosa busted, Arod busted and Bonds will get what he's got coming to him next year in court. I hope they throw the book at that jackass. He's the worst thing since segregation to ever happen to baseball's glorious history. SCREW BARRY BONDS!

I'm no Barry Bonds fan, but in terms of cheating I'd say he couldn't hold a candle to Cobb or some of the great dirty ballplayers of the deadball era, where spiking, punching, rubbing the ball with shoe polish, mud, spit, vaseline, sandpaper, etc., holding on to guy's belts as they tried to steal bases, slugging them in the gut as they ran by, etc... the one-umpire days of baseball were the dirtiest, most dishonest, ugliest baseball, filled with the most cheating ever seen, no question. The simple reason was, there was only one umpire and they could get away with it.

MLB basically tacitly approved of steroids until they were widespread, and you can bet that many players of bygone eras would be juiced if they would have played in the steroids era! That doesn't make any of this okay, but you have to keep it all in perspective that cheating in sports isn't some kind of new low for humanity, its always been there and maybe always will be.

[fkw]

Originally Posted by quinnsryche

Problem with that is he cheated to inflate his stats. None of the other players did anything to make themselves better at baseball. That's the shame of Bonds, McGwire, Sosa etc. x1000 others. No HOF, remove the records, forget about those cheats and let's move on. Maris is the single season HR champ, Aaron is the all time HR champ. Anyone caught doing that should get what Rose and Jackson got, BANNED. McGwire admitted it, Sosa busted, Arod busted and Bonds will get what he's got coming to him next year in court. I hope they throw the book at that jackass. He's the worst thing since segregation to ever happen to baseball's glorious history. SCREW BARRY BONDS!

Haha

Pitchers throwing to Bonds, Sosa etc. were jacked on 'roids too..... even field IMO

Screw Mickey Mantle, Aaron, Maris and the rest of them too, they were "jacked up" daily on Greenies (Amphetamines)

Didnt want to get into this but Lajoie, Wagner and that crew did Coke to "get up" for games daily too.
Every Era had its performance enhancers, and restricters

The All Time HR Single Season and Career Leader, Mr. Bonds still had to hit that ball.... and he did it Very Well !

[Matt]

Originally Posted by mintacular

According to the Burns version Joe's wife said it was a horrible thing and my impression was that Jackson never really denied his involvement...So I guess I don't really want to debate the facts of the case per se but more why would you want to own cards of this guy?

Joe denied his involvement until the day he died, so I believe your premise is flawed. Hypothetically, if a great player was completely innocent, yet was banned anyway, wouldn't that make for a compelling reason to collect his cards? Your question presumes his guilt which leaves you with not understanding his popularity.