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He was a slightly above average hitter (as is shown by his career OPS+ of 107...7% above average) and seems to have been overrated as a defender. Tom C |
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Players who had a higher slugging percentage as a Pirate during Pie Traynors years there who were apparently not as adversely affected by the huge park as poor ol' Pie was: Kiki Cuyler Paul Waner George Grantham Max Carey (6 year period) Glenn Wright (5 year period) Gus Suhr All of their career slugging numbers as a member of a Pirates team alongside Pie Traynor are higher than Traynor. My list of better third basemen than Pie Traynor before he played: Home Run Baker Jimmy Collins Heinie Groh Larry Gardner (maybe a tie) And players who came more towards the end of Traynor's career who were better: Pinky Higgins Stan Hack Harlond Clift (not sure...Clift much better over much shorter time) Pie Traynor was basically George Kell during a more offensive era and with better teammates. I don't dislike Traynor. I agree that during the period 1922-1935 he was the best third baseman in the game overall. But only in maybe four of five of those individual years was he the best, and on his own team he may have had one year where he was the best. Very good player. Just not a HOFer. And I put little stock in any body that votes for Joe Tinker for the HOF. Tom C Last edited by btcarfagno; 10-23-2017 at 06:25 PM. |
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"The greatest team player I ever saw." John McGraw "Watching Traynor play was like looking over daVinci's shoulder." Red Smith "Most marvelous pair hands you'd ever want to see." Billy Herman "Pie had the quickest hands, the quickest arm of any third baseman." Charlie Grimm He wasn't better than Brooks, but he was the best of the prewar era. His peers considered him the best, better than any of the players on "your list." I value their opinions over those of people who never saw him play and just want to hate on him. In 1947 Baker received 49 votes for the HOF, Traynor 119. Baker better than Pie? Lol. Last edited by rats60; 10-23-2017 at 08:12 PM. |
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Are you using HOF votes as your argument that Traynor was the best pre war third baseman? That's not just lol worthy. I'll give you a lulz.
Frank Baker was far superior to Pie Traynor. It's not close. And Jimmy Collins was slightly better. Pie Traynor was statistically the best third baseman in the sport for just three years. 1923, 1927 and 1929. That's it. Any idea how many times he was one the the two best hitters on his own team? Twice. He played at a time when there was a severe lack of quality third basemen in baseball. Being the best of a bad lot should not make one HOF worthy. Statistically there were several players before him that were better. One career contemporary that was almost as good (Travis Jackson...who also shouldn't be in the HOF). Several statistically better 3B came just after him, and then the floodgates opened in the 50's and 60's. Recent career contemporaries would swear that Derek Jeter was a gold glove caliber defender for the better part of 20 years. Lol. Tom C |
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Graig Nettles, Ken Boyer, Buddy Bell, Sal Bando, Darrell Evens, Ron Cey and Toby Harrah all had a higher OPS+ than Brooks Robinson. Why aren't they all in the HoF? Your simplistic argument is that if a player has a higher OPS, we should ignore all other batting stats and defense. Sorry, that is ridiculous. Players aren't elected to the HoF strictly on offense. |
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1923
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1971 Pirates Ticket Quest: 97 of 153 regular season stubs (63%), 14 of 14 1971 ALCS, NLCS , and World Series stubs (100%) If you have any 1971 Pirate regular season game stubs (home or away games) please let me know what have! 1971 Pirates Game used bats Collection 18/18 (100%) |
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Graig Nettles Ken Boyer Buddy Bell Sal Bando Darrell Evans Ron Cey Toby Harrah Players on your list who were better 3B than Pie Traynor: Graig Nettles (insanely better 3B than Traynor) Ken Boyer (insanely better 3B than Pie Traynor) Buddy Bell (insanely better 3B than Pie Traynor) Sal Bando (insanely better 3B than Pie Traynor) Darrell Evans Ron Cey Do they belong in the HOF? Not saying that. Just that they are all (minus Toby Harrah) better than Pie Traynor. I would also add the following non-HOF 3B as easily better than Pie Traynor: Scott Rolen Robin Ventura Stan Hack Bob Elliot Heinie Groh Matt Williams Others who a good argument could be made that they are better than Traynor: Tommy Leach Troy Glaus Tim Wallach Gary Gaetti Ken Caminiti So, by the time of Traynor's retirement, the following players were better or a good argument could be made that they were better, than Pie Traynor: Frank Baker Jimmy Collins Heinie Groh Tommy Leach Your statement that Traynor is "better all around" than Baker and Jimmy Collins is laughably inaccurate. Collins was at least as good a hitter and far better defensively. Baker was a far better hitter and at least Traynor's equal defensively, if not slightly better. Tom C |
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I am not implying Traynor is an egregious selection for the hall...he's not at all. Best of all time, even in 1976? That's probably a stretch. He may not make the top ten now, certainly not the top 5 which is something no other player on that 1976 Topps All Time team would say (you can argue Cochrane, but he is one of a cluster of catchers, though Bench or Campy would be my pick). We have had a good run of quality third basemen in the last 40 or so years and are in the midst of quite probably the best crop of third sackers ever top to bottom (Bryant, Arenado, Donaldson, Machado, Beltre, Seager, Turner, Ramirez, Rendon, plus others like Longoria, Lamb, Bregman, Castellanos, Frazier etc.). Interesting times.
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