ESPN & THE MITCHELL STEROIDS REPORT

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Posted By: Richard Simon

Lenny Dykstra

David Segui

Larry Bigbie

Brian Roberts

Jack Cust

Tim Laker

Josias Manzanillo

Todd Hundley

Mark Carreon

Hal Morris

Matt Franco

Rondell White

Andy Pettitte

Roger Clemens

Chuck Knoblauch

Jason Grimsley

Gregg Zaun

David Justice

F.P. Santangelo

Glenallen Hill

Mo Vaughn

Denny Neagle

Ron Villone

Ryan Franklin

Chris Donnels

Todd Williams

Phil Hiatt

Todd Pratt

Kevin Young

Mike Lansing

Cody McKay

Kent Mercker

Adam Piatt

Miguel Tejada

Jason Christiansen

Mike Stanton

Stephen Randolph

Jerry Hairston

Paul Lo Duca

Adam Riggs

Bart Miadich

Fernando Vina

Kevin Brown

Eric Gagne

Mike Bell

Matt Herges

Gary Bennett

Jim Parque

Brendan Donnelly

Chad Allen

Jeff Williams

Exavier “Nook” Logan

Howie Clark

Paxton Crawford

Ken Caminiti

Rafael Palmeiro

Luis Perez

Derrick Turnbow

Ricky Bones

Ricky Stone

The following players were cited under “Alleged Internet Purchases of Performance Enhancing Substances By Players in Major League Baseball.”

Rick Ankiel

David Bell

Paul Byrd

Jose Canseco

Jay Gibbons

Troy Glaus

Jason Grimsley

Jose Guillen

Darren Holmes

Gary Matthews Jr.

John Rocker

Scott Schoeneweis

Ismael Valdez

Matt Williams

Steve Woodard

The following players were linked through BALCO:

Benito Santiago

Gary Sheffield

Randy Velarde

Jason Giambi

Jeremy Giambi

Bobby Estalella

Barry Bonds

Marvin Benard

.

I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.
Unknown author
--
We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember.
No retreat baby, no surrender.
The Boss

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Posted By: davidcycleback

A question is when many of these players have medical problems 30 years from now will they sue MLB and the Players Union for hundreds of millions of dollars for their ailments? My guess is players will turn around and sue baseball, including their union, for being to lax about drug use. This report can be used as evidence, stating both sides were lax-- in particular when comparing to Olympic sports identified and seriously addressed the problem decades before (Remember, Ben Johnson was tested and banned almost 30 years ago). One of the pressing issues for the Olympics is that steroids and similar banned drugs cause major health problems in 1980s Communist troubles. MLB and the Players' Union heads had to have been well aware of the horrendous health problems many East German athletes developed from using the same drugs baseball was 'being lax' about. If the drug use leads to similar health problems, including early death, baseball may have a huge financial liability down the road.

In a case, jurors would address MLB's liability in part by comparing it to how other contemporary sports addressed, if they addressed, the issue. That's part of how a jury determines if an company was doing what a reasonable company would and should do-- by comparing it's practices to what other companies in the same field were doing at the same time. If every other propane storage company was known to follow a well recognized safety practice, and your company chose not to-- the comparison of practices between companies will be used as evidence if your lack of practice leads to injury or death. That the Olympics, which included the sport of baseball by the way, had addressed the issue with testing and penalties literally decades earlier, may prove to be a damning comparison for baseball. Again, this would be reinforced by MLB's own commissioned report that states baseball was lax and probably should have been used the accepted practices long used other sports like the Olympics.

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Posted By: peter ullman

did that list say nook logan? or hulk hogan?!?!

pete ullman

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Posted By: Bob Pomilla

That's exactly what's on my mind, David. Will they also be authoring books and making the media circuit, claiming victimhood? Funny how people insist on acting in ways that are detrimental to them and when their own behavior comes back to bite them, play the victim, railing at the injustice of it all.

Yes, they can claim that MLB and the union were lax, but ultimately, especially considering that the info indicating how harmful steroids can be, has been out there a long time, we are responsible for our own behavior.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Going down the list I noted a large number of marginal ballplayers, some I've never even heard of. I think the use of performance enhancing drugs was much larger than what was made public, and that many ballplayers were fortunate to slip beneath the radar.

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Posted By: Tom Boblitt

Barry........slip........for now.......

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Posted By: Ed Ivey

Should there be a steroid wing built at Cooperstown?

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Posted By: David Davis

This now places Aaron and Maris back at the top of the food chain, where they belong.

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Posted By: Jim Dale

Someone near the top of this thread said they hoped to see AROD on the list? Why would anyone want to see anyone's name on this horrible list? I get not liking a guy or his attitude or whatever; but wishing someone was on the list - wierd. Guess as an AROD fan that bugged me - oh well I'm glad to see he's not on any of the lists. Sorry to see Pujols is on a few - though someone said he's not?

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Posted By: davidcycleback

For the marginal players, the banned substances may be the reason they were in the bigs at all. Without the drugs some may have been AA players at best.

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Posted By: Richard Simon

Pujols is NOT on the list.
From what I hear they have Clemens pretty good,, and he is lying through his teeth already.
--

I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.
Unknown author
--
We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember.
No retreat baby, no surrender.
The Boss

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Posted By: Ken W.

Can someone (the one responsible, perhaps), please delete all of the inaccurate lists that were posted on this thread BEFORE the damn report was even released!!! Sorry, but that sucks to implicate someone with false info.

Thanks

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Posted By: Tom Boblitt

Is you close information on Clemens coming from the same source where you at first implicated Pujols but then redacted him from the list of offenders? Let's let the news come out from some official sources.....never retreat, never surrender, huh?

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Posted By: pas

I am likely in a minority but I question the appropriateness of using this quasi-investigative process to accuse people very publicly of what in some instances could be criminal conduct. I think he should have kept the report in general terms without naming names.

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Posted By: Steve

If Landis was commissioner, or even Kuhn or Vincent, what would happen? One thing I also thought interesting is if both pitchers and hitters are on steroids, is it then a perverse level playing field? For example, how did Giambi do againt Clemens and Pettite from 98 on?

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Posted By: john/z28jd

I said I wouldnt be surprised by a name on the list an i lied because Fernando Vina is on the list. He was on baseball tonight all season long talking about steroids,bashing the players who used it and defending people who havent been caught and saying he knew nothing about it going on. I really wish the show was in season right now and they were live on the air when the names were being read just to see his reaction when they said his name.


Wonder if he will be on the show next year? and if he is,if they would run a clip of him every once in awhile from last year badmouthing steroid users just to bust his chops.Like if he made a mistake or didnt know the answer to some question. He had to know he would be named since he seemed to be one of the biggest buyers,you figure he wouldve came out about it ahead of the report

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Posted By: davidcycleback

As exemplified by Bonds and Clemens, if the drugs extends a player's productive years, both pitchers' and hitters' longevity records will be artificially bloated. For career numbers, it's not an either/or proposition, but a both/and. Both Bonds and Clemens were churning out big times numbers unusually late in their careers, which directly effects career stats like home runs, wins and strikeouts. If you could have added four or five extra productive years to Lefty Grove, Catfish Hunter, Wille McCovey, Ty Cobb or Jimmie Foxx, their career stats would have all ballooned as well.

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Posted By: Richard Simon

Ken I took your advice and deleted the inaccurate lists.
Tom I thought I was quoting official sources when I posted lists coming from major news organizations. I certainly did not make up names to put on the list. And if you think Clemens is innocent now, well you are certainly entitled to your opinion.
--

I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.
Unknown author
--
We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember.
No retreat baby, no surrender.
The Boss

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Posted By: Steve

Ken, that pre-list was likely accurate. Just because Mitchell had no goods on those others (yet) just buys the vermin some time. I'm certain They're frantic trying to cover their tracks.

How these greedy knuckleheads can trash their legacies so is confounding.

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Posted By: D. C. Markel

Eighty players were named and it's safe to say many steroid abusers from that era still haven't been called out. Eighty players is more than three full team rosters.

We talk about how individual player's stat are most likely inflated because of steroid use and there appears to be an outcry such as putting asterisks on certain player's records from this era or banning them from the Hall of Fame. But now that we see that Clemens, Pettite, Mike Stanton and Chuck Knoblauch have been called out, this puts a blemish on the Yankees three World Series Championships from 1998-2000.

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Posted By: Rob Dewolf

But now that we see that Clemens, Pettite, Mike Stanton and Chuck Knoblauch have been called out, this puts a blemish on the Yankees three World Series Championships from 1998-2000.

A bigger Yankees hater than me you will not find, but if the illegal use of steroids was as widespread throughout MLB as you say and as the report implies -- and I agree that it likely was -- then why are the championships from the Yankees blemished? Because of the caliber of players who were cheating? Come on.

Be mad at baseball as a whole all you want, and be mad at your favorite player for shooting up, but there are enough reasons to dislike the Yankees without making this kind of stretch.

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Posted By: john/z28jd

The 2000 Yankees team had 10 guys from the list but as much as i hate the Yankees i dont think thats a higher percentage of players than any other average team from 2000 and I doubt those 10 players were the only ones either. When they say certain players had an advantage I laugh because who did they have an advantage over? Im sure that list couldve easily numbered 500 if people talked.

When they elect for the hall of fame I still think they should just take the best players from the era because no one is going to forget that this is the steroid era,every player will be presumed guilty years from now and who knows if it will ever get better,or who is going to care,not the fans who want to watch baseball played by the best players. Im sure there are a few people who dont attend games because of what happened but i dont know anyone in my everyday life who stopped going altogether,or started going more often because of drug testing.

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Posted By: Joann

I have a dumb-a$$ question. I haven't read the report yet so maybe that's why I don't understand this.

There are several places in the report where it says that one of the clubhouse attendants produced a check written by Player A for steroids, and this is part of the evidence that got Player A mentioned as a user.

How does this happen? How does the guy that the check was written to produce the check? If he cashed it, it would be in the possession of either the payor bank or the player. How would the clubhouse guy get it back?

More likely, if he produced it for Mitchell it was because he never cashed it and still had it as written. Why wouldn't he cash it? Are steroids so cheap he can front the money and forget about the check? Were there so many checks he lost track of some and forgot to cash them?

Did he intentionally hang on to them thinking he may need them as evidence someday? Or maybe that they would be more valuable in the future to sell on ebay (either as an autograph or even as a purported "check used to purchase steroids")?

And I know these players make a ton ton ton of money, but at some point wouldn't someone (the player or accountant or whatever) realize that the checks for steroids hadn't cleared yet and were still floating around out there somewhere?

For some reason, this business of clubhouse attendants being able to produce checks for the Commission is really nagging at me as being a bit odd.

Joann

Edited for punctuation. Trying to keep this a high-end board and all.

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Posted By: PC

The reason that certain teams are over-represented on the list of names is very simple to explain -- there was someone associated with the team and/or the players on the team that was willing to talk.

Which highlights one of the worst things in the report that has not been discussed in the press (yet), and that is the almost total silence and uncooperativeness with the investigation by the players. I understand that they are only acting in their own self-interest, but they are all complicit.

And I disagree with anyone that says nobody was disadvantaged in the steroid era because the use was so rampant. When you see marginal guys like Scott Schoenweiss on the list, and Randy Velarde (whose career was extended by steroid use), then you have to feel for the dozens of clean minor leaguers who could have (and should have) taken their spots, but never got their shot. And that scenario plays itself out down the chain in the minor leagues, all the way to the high school prospects.

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Posted By: Anonymous

For me, this was a waste of 40 million dollars to investigate and publish the report. These players probably won't be punished in any way.

Why not draw a line in the sand, say January 2008 as an example: Anyone caught using any drugs that are illegal after that date are punished. Whatever that punishment would be, I don't know.

joe

Ty Cobb, Spikes flying!

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Posted By: Ed Hans

Joanne,
I think the obvious answer is that they simply copied the checks before depositing them. Many legitimate enterprises do this for record keeping purposes (as I do for my Ebay transactions). Why did the Clubbies do it? Probably not for record keeping reasons, but for just such eventualities as this, where their own skin was on the line, and they needed something to use as a bargaining chip.

Edited for spelling.

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Posted By: Mike

I love baseball more than any other sport. I love everything about it. As much as it pains me, anyone who thinks only a few percent of the players do enhancement drugs, is living in a dream world. It's in all sports. And it ain't goin' away. My brother used to be a competitive weight lifter. He worked out with some athletes that everyone on here would know. They "All" took roids. Every single one. It is just part of the routine. Even the woman who were doing the competitive weigh lifting were into it. Now this was 15 years ago, but somehow i doubt they have all found religion. It's wrong, it's cheating, it's not good for one's health, but they do it. For all the obvious reasons. Last Spring, my shoulder was killing me. Couldn't lift my arm above my head. Or lift anything over about 5 pds, without screaming pain. Age, and many thrown baseballs and softballs from shortstop trashed it. Now, if I was in danger of losing my starting spot, or being cut from the team, due to the inability to perform, do you think I would take roids to fix me up? Hell yes. So would everyone else in here. One quick shot from the Doc, and the pain was gone by the next day. Hasn't bothered me since.

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Posted By: Joann

Ed,

Ohhh. OK. I get it. I was thinking they had produced the actual checks themselves, not photocopies. That makes more sense. They should have clarified that.

J

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Posted By: Kevin Cummings

I'm actually surprised it took this long to get pictures like this circulating...

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Posted By: PC

Nice shot of the "The Roidket". Which is my new favorite nickname.

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Posted By: paulstratton

So does this elevate a guy like Greg Maddux ahead of Clemens in your mind? They are both racing towards Spahn's modern day record for wins and if Maddux can win 13 games in each of the next two seasons he will tie Alexander and Matty for 3rd with 373. Only Cy Young and Walter Johnson ahead of him...

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Posted By: Todd Schultz

JoAnn, the bigger question is who is so dumb as to write a check for such things, rather than paying cash? Why on Earth leave a paper trail?

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Posted By: Joann

lol Todd. I thought about that one too. I think players may write checks to clubhouse guys pretty routinely for various things.

I read that at least one player was confronted by the commission with a check they got from a clubhouse guy that the player had written, and demanded to know what the check was for. The player said he didn't have the first damn idea what it was for - could have been McDonald's, could have been dues, could have been who the hell knows what, but all he knew was that it wasn't for steroids. I think this particular players ended up not being named in the report, and got the impression that checks between players and clubhouse guys aren't at all uncommon.

Wish I remembered who it was or where I read it - it was only yesterday. But if it was more than 20 minutes ago and is not related to the Sales and Negotiable Instruments exam I have tomorrow, then it doesn't have a spot in my brain right now!

Still though ... writing a check for steroids? What - they don't have ATM's in clubhouses?? They will now, I bet!

J

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Posted By: Todd Schultz

I saw that too. I want to know of anyone who has ever written a check to McDoonald's. I mean, you don't have a twenty or less to pay for food? Dues? Payable to a clubhouse guy and not an entity of some sort? Gimme a break. What's the pricing on these steroids anyway--same as a Happy Meal supersized?

OK Joann, if the player makes the check payable to the clubhouse guy, who then places a restrictive endorsement such as payable to John Doe only after January 1, 2008, is a party who takes delivery of the check from John Doe as consideration for another transaction a holder in due course? Is the answer different after January 1, 2008? Are you nervous about your exam?

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Posted By: howard

The check would not necessarily be written out to McDonalds (or Burger King, etc.) but rather to the club house attendant in payment for going to McDonalds. A large check could be a cumulative payment for going to McDonalds several times over the course of a week or a month. Or it could be payment for slipping a comely fan the players phone number. The point is that players routinely tip club house guys for any number of things so unless the player was stupid enough to write "steroids" on the memo line there is reasonable doubt as to what the checks were for.

Howard

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Posted By: Todd Schultz

Howard, there could be some doubt, but I won't concede it's reasonable. These were apparently often visiting players who come into town what, anywhere from three to ten days a year? They have plenty of food in the clubhouse, and although I suppose there could be some favors requested here and there, I have trouble believing them as being the subject of check transactions. It's been way too many years, but when I once saw the old Yankees roll into Minnesota and hang out, wads o' cash were being flashed for payment around the hotel and watering hole. It also seems with the proliferation of ATMS, cash is more readily available than ever. I just have difficulty believing these players are taking the time to write checks for every little favor or even for a bunch of them over time. That's why I say if the pricing for the roids at all matches up to the amounts shown on these checks, somebody's got a lot of 'splainin to do, and while it may not be proof positive, it is certainly relavant and likely probative.

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Posted By: Richard Simon

Paul Loduca wrote out three checks for $3200 each to Radomski.
That would have been an amazing coincidence for him to tip the clubhouse guy $3200 each time he saw him.

--

I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.
Unknown author
--
We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember.
No retreat baby, no surrender.
The Boss

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Posted By: Tom Boblitt

the juice is EXPENSIVE..........

Wonder if that was for the Cream or the Clear.....?

p.s. Todd.......Gonzo wasn't on the list I don't think......nor Williams or some of the other guys.......maybe second round, huh?

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Posted By: howard

Todd and Richard, you both make good points. Checks like that are certainly pretty strong evidence.

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Posted By: shane leonard

I have heard some people discussing those that were on steroids had an advantage over the others. However, being realistic on the steroid thing, I would wager that the steroid issue has existed for the past 15 years and the percentage of users in the MLB is close to 85%. If this is true the level of play is equal. This list of 87 is just the list that got ratted out by their trainers/clubhouse managers. Usually the strength and conditioning coach would be the guy giving the drugs instead of a trainer.
The issue of using a substance to enhance your play has been around a long time. It started with drinking in the dugout or being drunk on the mound(1920s-60s), to being high on cocaine or speed(1970s-80s), using tobacco throughout the life of baseball and now the steroids. All of these are accelerants that allow a player to release their nerves.

Shane

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Posted By: Richard S. Simon

You really think alcohol, cocaine and tobacco enhance play?????????
--

I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.
Unknown author
--
We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember.
No retreat baby, no surrender.
The Boss

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Posted By: shane leonard

Richard
Yes I do think so. When someone is nervous they smoke.

SL

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Posted By: Ed Ivey

Come to think of it, isn't the mere presence of athletically gifted genes/dna an unfair advantage?

Just kidding. "There's no excuse for juice." I wrote that.

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Posted By: Richard Simon

Shane - somebody may grab a smoke during a game, but doing lines of coke or drinking booze? Obviously they don't do that during a game and I never heard of either of those chemicals being called helpful to athletes, before, during or after a game.
--

I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.
Unknown author
--
We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember.
No retreat baby, no surrender.
The Boss

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Posted By: Steve

It has been said that many baseball players from the 1880's and 90's used cocaine and that baseball had a problem with it.


Steve

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Posted By: Dan

To think that only Barry is guilty, is a load of BS. MLB, just like NFL, NBA and NHL are LOADED with ROIDS. Anyone notice how these ballplayers, despite the sport, fill a piece of cardboard more than our players on T206? Yep, they are all on some kind of enhancement performance get more hits, homeruns, strikes (if a pitcher), touchdowns, catches, goals, dunks... < you get my meaning. It is completely retarded to hang this entire thing on Bonds, there are multiple users and before the leagues lift "the rock" of information, they may want to think twice...

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Posted By: davidcycleback

I'm unaware of a single person who thinks Bonds is the only one. Further, one only has to look at the reception for McGwire and Palmeiro to see Bonds is not the only one the receive the wrath or roids. A difference for Bonds is he chose to stay in the game and gun for popular records. McGwire and Palmeiro quickly moved to the sidelines. Presumably, if McGwire came back after the hearing to gun for Maris' record a second time, his reception wouldn't be as sweet as in 1998.

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Posted By: Richard Simon

According to SI.com Andy Pettitte has admitted using HGH on two occasions.
Not from SI.com but I have heard now that Bennett and Santangelo have verified what the Mitchell Report said about their drug use.
--

I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.
Unknown author
--
We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember.
No retreat baby, no surrender.
The Boss

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

I'm very disappointed with Pettite. While he only claims to have used HGH twice, when confronted last year by Jason Grimsley's accusation, he flat out lied. As for Clemens, his weak and getting weaker denials are not helped by Pettite's admission: Pettite totally corroborated the version of events provided by the trainer that he and Clemens shared. If Barry Bonds is denied entry into the HOF, Clemens had best be as well.

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Posted By: Jerry Spillman

This NY Times Mitchell Report article shows a picture and a concise report on each player on the list. It includes a chart showing before and after performance-enhancing substances were used.


http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2007/12/13/sports/20071213_MITCHELL_FEATURE.html#