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  #21  
Old 12-27-2018, 04:06 PM
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T205 GB T205 GB is offline
@ndrew woo.dfin
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I say yes the Coupon Type 1's are part of the T206 set. The Type 2&3's are part of a completely different company. I have explained below how I came up with this "crazy" notion.

The ATC owned the rights to the Type 1 Coupons and were printed as part of the T206 set in mid 1910 approximately. The cards were made by the ATC as part of their advertising campaign in cigarettes, and they were printed with all the same inks and designs. Nothing we have can disprove this theory. The thin paper argument can be explained in part to moisture. The thinner paper stocks that were made in the southern areas was likely due to the decrease in mold or mildew issues due to high humidity. Many southern advertisements have been found with the thinner paper stocks from that time frame. Thinner paper stock holds way less moisture and therefore will not be destroyed a fast as heavier card stock that has the ability to absorb and hold moisture from the air.

The ATC was divide into several sections when it was split up on May 29, 1911 ; Liggett & Myers(LM) being the main focus of my post. LM was given control of the W. R. Irby, New Orleans factory #3. This factory more than likely was forced to change the designs of the subjects that they once printed under the ATC banner due to Copyrights. The change in design had to be significant enough to not violate those laws and thus we have the major changes such as paper stock, inks, colors, back designs, cropping, players, ect. I also believe the glossy coating was to help offset the moisture absorption of the cards. Seal the front side and it reduces the amount of surface that can breath and thus make the card more moisture resistant. This also can help explain the cracking of the coating from the card stock expanding and contracting over the many years from different moisture environments.

We all need to stop and take a step back to look at what we have compared to what Burdick was trying to piece together. The internet and research of thousands of guys creates a much more detailed map. Best guess is that Burdick decided to combine them all into one group most likely due to some backlash he would have feared to receive from the LM company. Back then the company name would have been much more respected than now over 100 years later. LM was an instant powerhouse right out of the gate and any man no matter the riches or stature would have been fearful of disrespecting them back then in any way, especially in a published book for the public to use. The laws were much different then especially knowing that LM's history would later reveal some shady dealings throughout their inception from the ATC dissolution. I am sure you can imagine judges and lawmaker taking kickbacks to obtain bias towards them. I mean that never happens now or anything You also wouldn't call a Dodge Hemi Cuda a Chrysler even though its owned by them. We respect the original company manufacture and it would be sacrilege to call it a Chrysler ___ ___.

The same should be done with the card sets. We should recognize them for what they are. ATC owned the Coupon T206's and LM had the Coupon's for 1914 and on under a different company and new branding campaign.

My research with fellow members has led us down several paths but realistically the simplest explanation seems to be the best:

"W. R. Irby, New Orleans factory #3 was owned by two different companies at two separate times. Due to this, cards produced before the ATC dissolution, mid 1910, were produced for distribution in the T206 advertising campaign. The cards produced between 1914-1919 were part of another brand and thus would be forced to change designs significantly enough as to not violate copyright laws of the time".
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  #22  
Old 12-27-2018, 04:51 PM
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I haven't yet replaced Mr. Evers - happy he is still enjoying his new home!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss View Post
Nice card Luke - too bad I can’t post my Tinker Bat Off no-print in this thread.

As I mentioned once before, I don’t know if they should be t206s, but any self respecting t206 back run should include t213-1, if such an example exists.
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  #23  
Old 12-27-2018, 06:10 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
Ted Zanidakis
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Default Are the 1910 COUPON (T213-1) cards really T206's ? ....I think so. ....What say you ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss View Post
Nice card Luke - too bad I can’t post my Tinker Bat Off no-print in this thread.

As I mentioned once before, I don’t know if they should be t206s....but any self respecting t206 back run should include t213-1….if such an example exists.

Hey Ryan

I like the way you think

I also like your 1910 COUPON Evers better than mine....it looks better in SGC plastic than my PSA does.








TED Z

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  #24  
Old 12-27-2018, 09:19 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
Ted Zanidakis
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Default Are the 1910 COUPON (T213-1) cards really T206's ? ....I think so. ....What say you ?

In the 150 series press runs, American Lithographic (ALC) printed 34 different Southern Leaguers (SL).....16 of which represent the Southern Association.
In the 350 series press runs, ALC expanded the SL sub-set to 48 subjects.....20 of which represent the Southern Association. The four additional Southern
Association subjects are Bill Hart, "Hub" Hart, Lentz & Rockenfeld. This is important, as it clearly sets a Spring/Summer 1910 timeline for T213-1 cards.





Southern Association (20 subjects)

Bay......………...Nashville
Bernhard...…...Nashville
Breitenstein…..New Orleans
Carey.........…..Memphis
Cranston...……..Memphis
Ellam......………..Nashville
Fritz......………….New Orleans
Greminger...…..Montgomery
Hart......………...Montgomery
Hart...……………..Little Rock
Hickman...……...Mobile
Jordan...………...Atlanta
Lentz......………..Little Rock
Molesworth.......Birmingham
Perdue...………….Nashville
Persons...………..Montgomery
Reagan...………...New Orleans
Rockenfeld........New Orleans
Smith...……….....Atlanta
Thornton...……...Mobile


TED Z

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  #25  
Old 12-28-2018, 10:30 AM
tedzan tedzan is offline
Ted Zanidakis
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Default Are the 1910 COUPON (T213-1) cards really T206's ? ....I think so. ....What say you ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by T205 GB View Post
I say yes the Coupon Type 1's are part of the T206 set. The Type 2&3's are part of a completely different company. I have explained below how I came up with this "crazy" notion.
……………………………………
"W. R. Irby, New Orleans factory #3 was owned by two different companies at two separate times. Due to this, cards produced before the ATC dissolution, mid 1910, were produced for distribution in the T206 advertising campaign. The cards produced between 1914-1919 were part of another brand and thus would be forced to change designs significantly enough as to not violate copyright laws of the time".
Andrew

Great to hear from you. You have said a lot in your post; and, your last paragraph very succinctly summarizes the situation regarding the difference
between the 1910 COUPON cards vs. the T213-2 and T213-3 sets.

American Lithographic (ALC) printed all these white-bordered cards from 1909-1919, and it's apparent that after the ATC divesture (circa mid 1911),
ALC replaced the Brown ink captions with BLUE ink captions on the following T-cards...…

Liggett & Meyers……
COUPON Tobacco
T213-2 (1914-1916)
T213-3 (1916-1919)

VICTORY Tobacco
T214 (1915)


P. Lorillard…...RED CROSS
T215-2 (1912-1913)


TED Z

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  #26  
Old 12-28-2018, 11:28 AM
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P@trick R.omolo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tedzan View Post
An often repeated excuse from the naysayers...."It's the thinner cardboard stock which the 1910 COUPON cards were printed on that disqualifies
them from being considered T206's.
" This thinking is really ridiculous. My question to you naysayers is this....Then how come you don't DISCARD
the AMERICAN BEAUTY (AB) cards, since their card dimensions are inconsistent with all the other T206's ? ?

Well of course that is as ridiculous as the above comment regarding the 1910 COUPON's. It's all the same difference. Both AB and 1910 COUPON
cards differ from the other T206's due to Cigarette pack factors. American Lithographic trimmed the AB cards in anticipation of ATC's intention of
narrowing down AB cigarette packs (however, this never occurred). And, the 1910 COUPON cards were never meant to be used as cigarette pack
stiffeners. Since this new brand (introduced circa 1909-1910) was packaged as loose cigarettes in 200-count cartons labelled COUPON Cigarettes.
Such a cigarette carton is seen in Jeremy's 2016 thread (post #37)….. http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...+COUPON&page=4

Incidentally, no standard cigarette pack of that era has ever been reported that would have contained 1910 COUPON cards. And, I do not expect
that one will ever surface.
Therefore, my theory is that 1910 COUPON cards were either placed inside these 200-count cartons....or were pasted on these cartons. The latter
case would certainly explain the recurring paper loss found on quite a number of these cards' backs.

Here are some examples from my 1910 COUPON collection, which have the typical "glue spot" paper loss on the upper part of the backs (possibly
due to the cards having been pasted on cartons)......


.


.


.




P.S. Jeff Burdick's accomplishments in our hobby (Sportscards & Non-Sportscards) are amazing. And, if he had the benefit of the Internet,
I have no doubt that the 1910 COUPON cards would have been catalogued alongwith the 15 other basic T-brands in the T206 set.



TED Z

T206 Reference
.
But he did have the benefit of being around when they were distributed and
they were less than 30 years old when he created the ACC.
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  #27  
Old 12-28-2018, 11:53 AM
barrysloate barrysloate is offline
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As I've said before, if the Coupons were issued only in a single series, it would have been an easy decision for Burdick to group them with T206. But because there were three series, he had to make a decision and chose to classify the three as T213.

I do think the Type 1's are in spirit T206's, but as Leon pointed out they have been catalogued as T213's since the beginning and we can't arbitrarily change the ACC. However, if we could somehow take a time machine back and converse with Burdick, he would surely say that his work isn't gospel and is subject to corrections and reappraisal.

If somebody wanted to take the entire ACC and reevaluate the classifications, I think that would make for an amazing project. I have to think collectively the current hobby knows everything that Burdick knew, plus a lot more.

Last edited by barrysloate; 12-28-2018 at 11:54 AM.
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  #28  
Old 12-28-2018, 11:59 AM
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Only around 10% - 12% of what Burdick did was sportscards. I don't think he thought this out as much as you think he did. My guess, from some studying, is that he saw the backs and made them T213s because seeing the 3 Coupon backs were unlike any other back brands of 206, in that there aren't other white bordered cards (I could be wrong but don't think so) with a 206 back brand that has another catalog number too.
So this is what is being suggested? There would be T206 Coupon and T213 Coupons? I can't think of another T206 brand like that.

And Burdick absolutely KNEW AND WANTED the ACC to be a work in progress. I am not against redoing some things but not sure this is one I would be in favor of (not that that matters). IT is a good little debate.


Quote:
Originally Posted by T205 GB View Post
I say yes the Coupon Type 1's are part of the T206 set. The Type 2&3's are part of a completely different company. I have explained below how I came up with this "crazy" notion.

The ATC owned the rights to the Type 1 Coupons and were printed as part of the T206 set in mid 1910 approximately. The cards were made by the ATC as part of their advertising campaign in cigarettes, and they were printed with all the same inks and designs. Nothing we have can disprove this theory. The thin paper argument can be explained in part to moisture. The thinner paper stocks that were made in the southern areas was likely due to the decrease in mold or mildew issues due to high humidity. Many southern advertisements have been found with the thinner paper stocks from that time frame. Thinner paper stock holds way less moisture and therefore will not be destroyed a fast as heavier card stock that has the ability to absorb and hold moisture from the air.

The ATC was divide into several sections when it was split up on May 29, 1911 ; Liggett & Myers(LM) being the main focus of my post. LM was given control of the W. R. Irby, New Orleans factory #3. This factory more than likely was forced to change the designs of the subjects that they once printed under the ATC banner due to Copyrights. The change in design had to be significant enough to not violate those laws and thus we have the major changes such as paper stock, inks, colors, back designs, cropping, players, ect. I also believe the glossy coating was to help offset the moisture absorption of the cards. Seal the front side and it reduces the amount of surface that can breath and thus make the card more moisture resistant. This also can help explain the cracking of the coating from the card stock expanding and contracting over the many years from different moisture environments.

We all need to stop and take a step back to look at what we have compared to what Burdick was trying to piece together. The internet and research of thousands of guys creates a much more detailed map. Best guess is that Burdick decided to combine them all into one group most likely due to some backlash he would have feared to receive from the LM company. Back then the company name would have been much more respected than now over 100 years later. LM was an instant powerhouse right out of the gate and any man no matter the riches or stature would have been fearful of disrespecting them back then in any way, especially in a published book for the public to use. The laws were much different then especially knowing that LM's history would later reveal some shady dealings throughout their inception from the ATC dissolution. I am sure you can imagine judges and lawmaker taking kickbacks to obtain bias towards them. I mean that never happens now or anything You also wouldn't call a Dodge Hemi Cuda a Chrysler even though its owned by them. We respect the original company manufacture and it would be sacrilege to call it a Chrysler ___ ___.

The same should be done with the card sets. We should recognize them for what they are. ATC owned the Coupon T206's and LM had the Coupon's for 1914 and on under a different company and new branding campaign.

My research with fellow members has led us down several paths but realistically the simplest explanation seems to be the best:

"W. R. Irby, New Orleans factory #3 was owned by two different companies at two separate times. Due to this, cards produced before the ATC dissolution, mid 1910, were produced for distribution in the T206 advertising campaign. The cards produced between 1914-1919 were part of another brand and thus would be forced to change designs significantly enough as to not violate copyright laws of the time".
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Last edited by Leon; 12-29-2018 at 09:03 AM.
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  #29  
Old 12-28-2018, 12:03 PM
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Would not the quotation marks also be a departure from T206? Coupon type 1's and Cobb/Cobbs both have 'em.
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  #30  
Old 12-28-2018, 12:30 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
Ted Zanidakis
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Default Are the 1910 COUPON (T213-1) cards really T206's ? ....I think so. ....What say you ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by toppcat View Post
Would not the quotation marks also be a departure from T206? Coupon type 1's and Cobb/Cobbs both have 'em.
Hi Dave

Regarding the "Quotation Marks"....my understanding is that advertising new Tobacco brands which are in the process of getting a Registered Trademark require the Quotes.
Here are three examples of this......





.

and,

.



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