When Doing a Trade

[Leon]

So I was trying to do a trade with a very nice member in the last few days. As we were talking a little about comps and stuff he sent me a comp of my T206 Cobb Bat On...
Here is the comp he used from Heritage...
and here is my SGC card next to it...
I would say that when working on values try to get something closer to the one in question.

[Jim65]

I pretty much gave up on trading, way too many people feel the need to come out ahead. Very few fair traders left.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by Jim65

I pretty much gave up on trading, way too many people feel the need to come out ahead. Very few fair traders left.

i agree with this...it has become very difficult to trade without feeling one has been bent over these days. Very few traders around!

[mrreality68]

Sometimes it is hard.

1. everyone want the trade in their favor
2. sometimes people use only what is "available" from auctions at that time
3. Sometimes they compare the grade vs the eye appeal
4. sometimes and sadly people try and look at the trade one sided

In the end the beauty of the deal it is not done until it is done. So until the 2 sides agree there is nothing more then an exchange of ideas

[CTDean]

Trading now is nothing like it was 40 years ago. In the early 1980's I traded quite a bit with old time collector Crab Foxwell as we both lived in Cambridge, MD and he was a very good friend. He was doing quite a few shows in the MD-PA area and was overloaded with pre-war (not selling at most shows) and out of 1950's & 60's material. I was buying collections and not doing shows yet.
We would put up a card table under the tree behind my antique shop to do our trades. He would put a T3 Johnson in the center and ask for Mantle's. When the pile got right, he would slide me the Johnson and take the Mantles. I put a 1957 T Brooks Rookie & 1967 Brooks Hi # in the center and he would build his pile of pre-war to trade. We could usually sit there for an hour or more trading and talking.

[Kzoo]

^^^ That is so cool to envision.....and this would be a great topic to add to the 'Festivus: Airing of Grievances' ongoing thread.

[JimC]

No one wants to get completely massacred in a trade, but it's not unusual for me to take a little less in a deal if I'm getting something I really want that's hard to come by. I made a trade not long ago for a card with a scarce back and definitely gave up more market value but I was willing to pay a premium to get the rare card, and I think it's okay for the guys with rare stuff to expect a little extra.

[icurnmedic]

I commonly give more market value when I am trading multiple lower value cards for a high dollar card. I also try to give at least 1/2 in cash if I can.
People need to realize the whole do unto others idea.
That being said,I have made some amazing trades with some well known board members and I appreciate that.
Thomas

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by JimC

No one wants to get completely massacred in a trade, but it's not unusual for me to take a little less in a deal if I'm getting something I really want that's hard to come by. I made a trade not long ago for a card with a scarce back and definitely gave up more market value but I was willing to pay a premium to get the rare card, and I think it's okay for the guys with rare stuff to expect a little extra.

Sure and I agree! I see people over on Facebook daily offering nice cards not super rare but nice desirable cards asking for a certain amount of cash and then about 15 to 20% more in trade value.

[3-2-count]

Very rarely have I been successful with a trade. Mainly due to the other party wanting the moon in return or experiencing what Leon did above where comps were received that just aren't apples to apples to what I have involved in the deal.

[samosa4u]

NEVER EVER EVER trade with a dealer because he will try to ROB the hell outta' you! I've had dealers try to make ten-thousand profit on our trades and it's ridiculous! Only trade with collectors!

[rjackson44]

Lost art

[Johnny630]

The most productive and powerful leverage you have in Trade is Cash. If you see something you want buy it and sell what you were considering trading.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by 3-2-count

Very rarely have I been successful with a trade. Mainly due to the other party wanting the moon in return or experiencing what Leon did above where comps were received that just aren't apples to apples to what I have involved in the deal.

I think you and I (and many others) look for the best eye appeal we can get. And for that reason VCP average prices are not cards we generally collect (unless, for me, super rare).

This Greenie is not going to be a VCP average price of a 2 either, and it's really a 1 with the qualifier. Thanks again for this one, Tony.

[3-2-count]

That is a beauty of a 2 for sure Leon. I'm telling ya', we're kindred spirits!

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

The most productive and powerful leverage you have in Trade is Cash. If you see something you want buy it and sell what you were considering trading.

There is a taxable event in there to consider.

Trading cards and leaving cash out of the equation might turn out better, financially speaking.

[BobbyStrawberry]

Originally Posted by rjackson44

Lost art

I've tried many times, but I have yet to complete a trade on here!

[Leon]

Originally Posted by BobbyStrawberry

I've tried many times, but I have yet to complete a trade on here!

As the other member and I were talking about it is not easy to trade nowadays.
.

[vintagetoppsguy]

I've had many successful trades on here - one just last week (Thanks, Bill ).

[bnorth]

I have done easily over 100 trades on this forum. Usually smaller dollar value stuff. My biggest trade on here was a 1952 Topps Eddie Mathews for a T206 Red Cobb.

I still prefer to trade anytime possible.

Some people do have a very interesting idea of what a fair trade is. I just avoid trying to do trades with them.

[grainsley]

I think "The Guide" started the destruction of trading as I knew it in the early '60's as an 11 year old. Back then, we all knew that cards were a penny each when they came in a pack of 4 with a stick of gum. It didn't much matter if you had a Killebrew that I needed, and I had a Bob Turley that you needed, the deal was done, since we both came out ahead getting cards we needed if they were just dupes to you anyways. The Guide started the demise, later to be followed by the complete devastation of trading when grading finished the job. Greed and the need to come out ahead dug the hole in the cemetery for trading.

Grant

[chadeast]

I completed a 2-for-2 T3 Turkey trade with a board member earlier this summer. All ungraded which probably helps, and I kicked in some cash due to the lesser condition of the ones I was trading away. Trading among reasonable collectors is still very doable.

[MuncieNolePAZ]

I have probably completed around 50 trades with members on here. I have never had any issues. There is certainly some give and take and understanding that if you are trading multiple cards for a single card, you will usually have to give a little more. I definitely prefer to trade over buying and selling when possible.

Chad

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by chadeast

...Trading among reasonable collectors is still very doable.

Agreed. I've done several trades with forum members. It's quite fun (for me) to get cards I want...through using cards that no longer fit my collecting focus.

[jingram058]

I have done a handful of trades in the past 55 years, and each one worked out to my and their satisfaction. Biggest by far was with a local collector here in SW Florida, lots of cards involved, and it took place in person at 3 Pepper Burrito. Almost like a miniature card show. Some very valuable cards were involved, but both of us walked away happy. A couple of minor trades here on net54. When it comes to multiple, high-dollar cards, my advice is do it in person. Then you can't be disappointed.

This is my 500th net54 post! Yee ha!

[Peter_Spaeth]

When some of us were kids it was so much easier -- you traded your doubles that your friend needed for his doubles that you needed. Didn't matter at all if it was Mickey Mantle or Chico Ruiz.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Eric72

There is a taxable event in there to consider.

Trading cards and leaving cash out of the equation might turn out better, financially speaking.

That isn't entirely true. Even if you straight up trade cards for cards, and no cash trades hands, that is a barter transaction and the IRS views it as a fully taxable event.

[Casey2296]

I've had several successful trades with members here, sometimes it's the only way you can get a specific card from another collector.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by BobC

That isn't entirely true. Even if you straight up trade cards for cards, and no cash trades hands, that is a barter transaction and the IRS views it as a fully taxable event.

Go get 'em Bob...
.

[Carter08]

A fun trade string I did through net54 was going from Cobb t227 to Cobb t206 red to e93 Honus and Cy Young. I will always miss those Cobbies but it was fun.

[Tao_Moko]

I have had successful trades here. Exclusively when both parties have something that doesn't fit their wheelhouse. An example is I don't collect hockey cards but end up with them at times. I do collect baseball, boxing and football though. I'm easy to deal with and can weight a trade in favor of the other party. I did trade successfully T206 in person with a member here who lived in the same town as me. RIP Dr. Manning

[kmac32]

I trade as a collector. I look at value of the cards but more importantly I fill in holes in my own collection. I have had people offer me many times over for certain individual cards in my collection but if the trade or deals leave a hole in my collection that can’t be repaired the it is a no go.

[parkplace33]

Problem with trading is many collectors tend to overvalue their cards.

[Snapolit1]

I find in this market it’s often extremely difficult to value your cards. A comparable card last sold for $13,000 in June. So that means your card could be worth $17,000? Or $20,000? Or $15,000? Or $9,000?

[Vintagecatcher]

I have had many successful trades here on the forum.

I'm more than happy to give up more value in order to get a card I desire.

It's what is needed to make sure both sides end up safisfied with the deal.



Patrick

[ValKehl]

Originally Posted by BobC

That isn't entirely true. Even if you straight up trade cards for cards, and no cash trades hands, that is a barter transaction and the IRS views it as a fully taxable event.

Bob, this seems totally contradictory to me if one is a cash-basis taxpayer for income tax purposes, which I believe most individuals are.

[Stampsfan]

Whatever happened to the guy who was going to trade some obscure card up for a 52 Topps Mantle, and was tracking it. He ended up getting a lot of commons and it died slowly, IIRC.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by ValKehl

Bob, this seems totally contradictory to me if one is a cash-basis taxpayer for income tax purposes, which I believe most individuals are.

Hi Val,

The IRS views businesses and people as keeping their records in one of two acceptable manners, either on an "accrual basis" or a "cash basis". Both of these refer to when a taxpayer, an individual or business, recognizes income or expenses for tax purposes. If you are on the "accrual basis", income or expense is recognized when a taxpayer becomes liable for the receipt or payment of some bill or invoice. If on the "cash basis", it is recognized when actually paid or received.

A company/individual selling cards that is on the accrual basis for tax purposes sends cards and an invoice to a customer dated today, 12/26/2021, and the customer receives it and sends payment back to the company/ individual on 1/5/2022. Because the seller is on the accrual basis, they recognize the sale of those cards on 12/25/2021 as taxable income in 2021 (assuming the company/individual uses the calendar year as its taxable year), even though they didn't receive payment of their invoice till the following taxable year. Had the seller been on the cash basis instead, they wouldn't recognize the income from the sale until the following year, 2022, when the payment was actually received.

The term "cash basis" itself refers to the timing of when a taxpayer recognizes income and expenses for income tax purposes, it does not necessarily refer to or just mean actual cash paid or received.

Now take the card selling company/individual in my example. Instead of being paid in cash for the cards they sold, they could agree to be paid in goods or services instead. And by goods, that includes cards they received as payment for the cards they just sold. You, or others, may call that a trade, but the IRS calls it a taxable sale or exchange. It doesn't matter if it is individuals or companies involved in such a deal/trade, it is still considered a taxable exchange to both parties by the IRS. There is also the possibility that some people think such a trade isn't taxable because it is considered as a like-kind exchange, where the tax liability is deferred, but under current tax law, like-kind exchanges only apply to real estate.

The parties (usually individuals) in a card trade don't normally have either side reporting the trade to the IRS, so the IRS normally has no other way to know about such activities, and doesn't really have the time or resources to go after these people. But that doesn't mean you're still not supposed to report such trades as taxable sales on your income tax returns. It is kind of similar to how people that win something from an AH that doesn't charge them sales tax for the state they're in normally don't bother to voluntarily report and pay the resulting sales/use to their state, like they're supposed to. People know that in either instance, the chances of them getting caught is almost nil, so they don't bother.

As you said, pretty much all individuals are considered "cash basis" taxpayers, and generally only actual registered businesses can get treated as either "cash basis" or "accrual basis". And for the record, when someone does execute a taxable trade of one card for another, if no cash is involved, you are supposed to assume that the current FMV of the card you received at the time of the trade is equal to the amount of cash you would have received had you just sold the card outright. And you use that FMV to report the deemed sale on your tax return, and to then figure any gain or loss you may have for tax purposes.

[Jason]

I have pulled some trades off as recently as this year on the site. I always enjoy trading and have benefited and been on the lesser side. Yin and yang.

[Bram99]

The problem that has been described here is ancient. In fact, it gave rise to the concept of money as a medium of exchange. It can be substituted for very diverse goods.

The first known form of currency was the Mesopotamian Shekel from around 5,000 years ago. Likely there were similar quibbles to the one in this thread, when a wheat farmer had too much wheat but really wanted some goat milk.

Today, it can be used as a medium of exchange (to buy or sell) a PSA 3 T206 Ty Cobb with poor centering. The money proceeds from a sale like this could be used to buy a different T206 Ty Cobb graded by a different TPG. Or it can be used to even out a trade involving the two cards in the example.

The key issue in any of these examples is the need to come to an agreement on relative value. That problem is also ancient and didn't arise with the advent of price guides, the rise of card "investors" or card dealers, or third party grading.

So if you can't think of a fair trade, try using cash to help even things out! If that doesn't work, you probably weren't likely to have a meeting of the minds in a buy/sell transaction either, so might as well move on and find a new trading partner!

[LincolnVT]

This thread brings me back to the hobby in the late 80s when nothing was graded, very little was sold, everyone traded and we all relied on the latest issue of Beckett to see if our Billy Ripken variation still had a little black arrow pointing up next to the $50.00 price. Back then if you had a decent Mantle from the 50s or 60s you were king...nobody cared about the stuff that we all chase today. I love to trade still...would still much rather work a trade deal with a collector than sell what I have just to buy another piece at auction.

[Yoda]

Way back, trading was the heart and soul of the hobby, kids had no money and trading was was really the only way to get desired cards after meagre allowances were exhausted. I got my first Mantle Bowman rookie through a trade. I was 7 years old at the time.

[Tyruscobb]

Originally Posted by parkplace33

Problem with trading is many collectors tend to overvalue their cards.

This is usually the issue. Oftentimes, both parties overvalue their respective cards. Each party also wants to get the better deal. These two factors are as old as time and memorial.

[ValKehl]

Bob, I was 99.9% certain that after I commented about cash-basis taxpayers, you would respond with a dissertation re cash basis vs. accrual basis, and I wasn't disappointed.

Although my comment may come across as "snarky," I truly appreciate and respect your immense knowledge of taxation and the governmental regulations pertaining thereto. While an accountant for most of my career, I never got much into taxes, so I only know enough about taxes to be "dangerous." Hence, I also truly appreciate your many efforts enlighten all of us with your tax knowledge. And, I enjoy reading whatever you post re any topic because of you excellent writing skill.

You mentioned that, "there is also the possibility that some people think such a trade isn't taxable because it is considered as a like-kind exchange, where the tax liability is deferred, but under current tax law, like-kind exchanges only apply to real estate." I resemble your remark in that I never realized that a cashless trade is taxable. I guess the real property lobby has been a much stronger influencer on Congress than the personal property lobby (if there even is such an organization).

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by parkplace33

Problem with trading is many collectors tend to overvalue their cards.

For many reasons, it helps to be objective when evaluating cards.

I always ask myself two questions when looking at a card:

1. What condition/value would I place on this if it was my card?
2. What condition/value would I place on this if I was trying to buy this card?

This simple exercise allow me to see both sides of the coin, so to speak. The true condition/value is typically on the edge of that coin, between the two sides.

[Leon]

Great comments by everyone....So getting back to my and the very nice members offer.
Here is the valuation he gave on these cards.,...


"T206 Ty Cobb Bat On Sweet Caporal
T206 Ty Cobb Green - Sweet Caporal PSA 2MC
T206 Johnson Portrait SC Over Print Sub 150 Fac 649
T206 Mathewson Portrait
T206 Cy Young PortraIt
E105 Cy Young PSA 1.5
N284 Buchner Gold Coin Wood-Sliding SGC 2

I added them all up and it comes to about $24500 or so "

.

[sycks22]

My favorite trade offer happened about three weeks ago. A guy wanted to trade me his SGC 3 card and used a PSA 7 price as a comp. We're done here.

[Luke]

Trading is the most fun part of the hobby to me. I do tons of trades with my collecting buddies. Here are some cards I got in trades this year:

[LincolnVT]

Leon. I see that group more in the 30k -- 34k range now days.

[nebboy]

Originally Posted by Stampsfan

Whatever happened to the guy who was going to trade some obscure card up for a 52 Topps Mantle, and was tracking it. He ended up getting a lot of commons and it died slowly, IIRC.

I was the guys that made the 1st trade with the (trade up to a 52 mantle) guy when I gave up some lesser T206 hof cards ect., for a graded 3 veg 205 Johnson, I took a little heat over that one because some felt I gave to much or they didn't like that guy or what he was trying to achieve. His quest did flame out after a few trades and I beleave after trying another hobby related start up, ended up moving away from Net54.

Still have that T206 Johnson