Fake Signed T206 Cards (Too Many to List in the Title, See First Post for List)

[Stampsfan]

Originally Posted by Duluth Eskimo

This exactly. Way too many people follow here opinion as facts. These people are sheep and when they get slaughtered I feel very little sympathy for them. Let me clarify, you are paying for an opinion. Those opinions differ amongst authenticators. Just because you feel all warm and fuzzy doesn’t mean they should reimburse you anything. I can’t believe the arguements that people are trying to make when the opinion someone gives turns out to be wrong. It is a completely different story if you can prove that the opinion given is wrong and the authenticator is knowingly authenticating a non authentic item. People need to stop throwing blame at other people and look in the mirror.

When you pay for something, you expect to get the service performed efficiently and with some expertise.

If I went to my lawyer for his/her opinion, I would be making decisions based on their expertise.

If I went to my accountant for his/her opinion, I would be making decisions based on their expertise.

If I went to my mechanic for his/her opinion, I would be making decisions based on their expertise.

If I went to my doctor for his/her opinion, I would be making decisions based on their expertise.

All of these people theoretically have a skill set that exceed my own; that is why I pay for their services. When people here say you need to educate yourself... well, I don't have time to educate myself on all areas I may need help and advice on. I don't have time to do all the research and educate myself in medicine, law, accounting, or auto mechanics.

Why do we give these guys a free pass for failing? Most people would not be quite so easy to forgive the so-called experts in other professions.

[Republicaninmass]

This is why MOST opt for a second opinion, or 2 or 3 estimates, when something doesnt smell or feel right. Kind of like the Marquard, which started the whole thread.

[packs]

Originally Posted by Stampsfan

When you pay for something, you expect to get the service performed efficiently and with some expertise.

If I went to my lawyer for his/her opinion, I would be making decisions based on their expertise.

If I went to my accountant for his/her opinion, I would be making decisions based on their expertise.

If I went to my mechanic for his/her opinion, I would be making decisions based on their expertise.

If I went to my doctor for his/her opinion, I would be making decisions based on their expertise.

All of these people theoretically have a skill set that exceed my own; that is why I pay for their services. When people here say you need to educate yourself... well, I don't have time to educate myself on all areas I may need help and advice on. I don't have time to do all the research and educate myself in medicine, law, accounting, or auto mechanics.

Why do we give these guys a free pass for failing? Most people would not be quite so easy to forgive the so-called experts in other professions.

How do you know their skill set isn't exactly as advertised? These cards fooled seasoned veteran collectors, some of which specialize in this exact area. People get fooled sometimes. This forger was prolific and from all outward appearances (huge sales) very good at what they did. No one questioned whether or not the autographs were right. It was only found that they couldn't be right when the original scans were dug up. If the signatures were blatantly fake, that's one thing. But as we can all see from the high dollar sales of these cards, the signatures fooled almost everyone who came in contact with them.

[Daveyc]

there has been some speculation as to how long these authenticators actually spend reviewing each signature. I have been attending the HOF induction ceremony for years. James Spence and his crew are always in attendance. He usually has a couple of young guys set up at tables for authenticating autos that are being signed in person. for instance. MAB always sets up and has dozens of signers. you enter through the front door of the Inn where the signing takes place. go to the athlete you paid for and get the sigs. after which, you exit out a back door and walk around to the front of the building where JSA is set up to "authenticate" one guy will enter the player/item into their data base, the other affixes a sticker to the memorabilia. they hardly even look at the item. a forger could bring dozens of baseballs, bats, uniforms etc around the side of the building and get in line for "authentication". I have never seen an item even questioned. it is literally an assembly line. THere is absolutely no authentication going on there, just data entry. I have been watching this for years and years.

James himself also does "authentication" in Cooperstown. he sets up at the small card show. I have watched him work many many times and have been quite underwhelmed. there is usually a pretty long line, and people walk right up to him and have him "authenticate" their items in front of them. this is where vintage items are done. the absolute longest I have ever seen him look at an item is no longer than 20-30 seconds. and that was for a multi signed baseball. it is VERY fast. then he hands the item back, enters the data into his template and boom, LOA.

At least for JSA, we are not even paying for a few minutes of their time when they are authenticating items. It really is just a few seconds. it is very casual, and I felt uncomfortable having the client watching him work. Seems that there could be situations where he could be pressured into passing an item.

that is just my two cents. I was wholly unimpressed by the whole process.

[Duluth Eskimo]

Originally Posted by Daveyc

there has been some speculation as to how long these authenticators actually spend reviewing each signature. I have been attending the HOF induction ceremony for years. James Spence and his crew are always in attendance. He usually has a couple of young guys set up at tables for authenticating autos that are being signed in person. for instance. MAB always sets up and has dozens of signers. you enter through the front door of the Inn where the signing takes place. go to the athlete you paid for and get the sigs. after which, you exit out a back door and walk around to the front of the building where JSA is set up to "authenticate" one guy will enter the player/item into their data base, the other affixes a sticker to the memorabilia. they hardly even look at the item. a forger could bring dozens of baseballs, bats, uniforms etc around the side of the building and get in line for "authentication". I have never seen an item even questioned. it is literally an assembly line. THere is absolutely no authentication going on there, just data entry. I have been watching this for years and years.

James himself also does "authentication" in Cooperstown. he sets up at the small card show. I have watched him work many many times and have been quite underwhelmed. there is usually a pretty long line, and people walk right up to him and have him "authenticate" their items in front of them. this is where vintage items are done. the absolute longest I have ever seen him look at an item is no longer than 20-30 seconds. and that was for a multi signed baseball. it is VERY fast. then he hands the item back, enters the data into his template and boom, LOA.

At least for JSA, we are not even paying for a few minutes of their time when they are authenticating items. It really is just a few seconds. it is very casual, and I felt uncomfortable having the client watching him work. Seems that there could be situations where he could be pressured into passing an item.

that is just my two cents. I was wholly unimpressed by the whole process.

This description pretty much just told most people you have no idea what you’re talking about.

[Daveyc]

Originally Posted by Duluth Eskimo

This description pretty much just told most people you have no idea what you’re talking about.

what in the world are you talking about? I witnessed this myself. I have no skin in this game. My only autos are the ones I watched being signed. Maybe, just maybe, the one who doesn't know is you.

[Marchillo]

Originally Posted by Daveyc

what in the world are you talking about? I witnessed this myself. I have no skin in this game. My only autos are the ones I watched being signed. Maybe, just maybe, the one who doesn't know is you.

I wrote something similar earlier in this thread. The description at the MAB show is 100% accurate and true. Its data entry and they didn't watch the items being signed. You could bring a ball that wasn't signed at the show and get a sticker as long as that signer is in attendance.

I have been to the card show but haven't gone to the JSA table to witness that process. So I can't verify the second part. But based on what I see at the MAB table I would believe this.

I'll be at the induction this year like always. When I'm at the card show I'll check out the JSA table to see what happens.

[Duluth Eskimo]

Originally Posted by Daveyc

what in the world are you talking about? I witnessed this myself. I have no skin in this game. My only autos are the ones I watched being signed. Maybe, just maybe, the one who doesn't know is you.

I am going to sound like I am defending the company, but if you think that no authentication is going on you are mistaken. I will give you the fact that if they are authenticating post signing signers at the HOF it is a quick slap a sticker production line, but to say for vintage ir expensive items they just slap a sticker on anything is blatantly false. Yes, yes Sal Bando. I know.

Go ahead and believe whatever you want, but you may be underestimating many things about the process. Better yet, maybe you should open your own company because there’s nothing to it and you could make a lot of money.

There are many things I disagree with about authentication companies and the process, but to say they pass everything that is put in front of them is simply not true.

[Rich Klein]

Originally Posted by Duluth Eskimo

I am going to sound like I am defending the company, but if you think that no authentication is going on you are mistaken. I will give you the fact that if they are authenticating post signing signers at the HOF it is a quick slap a sticker production line, but to say for vintage ir expensive items they just slap a sticker on anything is blatantly false. Yes, yes Sal Bando. I know.

Go ahead and believe whatever you want, but you may be underestimating many things about the process. Better yet, maybe you should open your own company because there’s nothing to it and you could make a lot of money.

There are many things I disagree with about authentication companies and the process, but to say they pass everything that is put in front of them is simply not true.

One note on the Sal Bando, and yes that should have been stopped BUT... the TV piece was done during a show where Bando was, ...signing.

Normal people would presume, and I get that can be dangerous, that any Bando auto they would see that weekend would be good. That is "gotcha" journalism and there are far better targets

Rich

[Daveyc]

Originally Posted by Duluth Eskimo

I am going to sound like I am defending the company, but if you think that no authentication is going on you are mistaken. I will give you the fact that if they are authenticating post signing signers at the HOF it is a quick slap a sticker production line, but to say for vintage ir expensive items they just slap a sticker on anything is blatantly false. Yes, yes Sal Bando. I know.

Go ahead and believe whatever you want, but you may be underestimating many things about the process. Better yet, maybe you should open your own company because there’s nothing to it and you could make a lot of money.

There are many things I disagree with about authentication companies and the process, but to say they pass everything that is put in front of them is simply not true.

First of all, I never said they authenticate everything. But I witnessed jimmie himself, and his "authentication" process. He passed everything I WITNESSED him look at, and only spent mere seconds on each item and very casually at that. They do pass EVERYTHING put in front of them at live signing events and they DO NOT witness the signings. He often would be conversing with the client as he was "authenticating" I saw at least one team ball he did this with. Wouldn't you agree that at the least the "authenticator" and client shouldn't be face to face during the process? I have watched this on more than one occasion.

As for their post signing "authentication" process, that is a joke and could be seen as indicative as to how seriously they take authentication in general. If Jimmie himself is this cavalier in public, imagine how that place runs behind closed doors.

A word of advice. Maybe you should know what you are talking about before you denigrate others. I have witnessed this process first hand, it appears you have not, but are placing blind faith in the process, probably because you have some skin in the game.

[Fred]

Originally Posted by packs

How do you know their skill set isn't exactly as advertised? These cards fooled seasoned veteran collectors, some of which specialize in this exact area. People get fooled sometimes. This forger was prolific and from all outward appearances (huge sales) very good at what they did. No one questioned whether or not the autographs were right. It was only found that they couldn't be right when the original scans were dug up. If the signatures were blatantly fake, that's one thing. But as we can all see from the high dollar sales of these cards, the signatures fooled almost everyone who came in contact with them.

Well, t least JSA is consistent in being fooled "sometimes".

I'm going to go out on a limb here - if someone (JSA, PSA or SGC) didn't cert the signatures, then there wouldn't have been near the amount of cash involved at the time the hammer hit the gavel.

Not saying that people shouldn't rely solely on certs, but that's where the appearance of validity begins. If someone or organization is getting fooled that often, then perhaps they need to re-evaluate their career path...

http://http://www.net54baseball.com/...1&d=1544487620

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by packs

How do you know their skill set isn't exactly as advertised? These cards fooled seasoned veteran collectors, some of which specialize in this exact area. People get fooled sometimes. This forger was prolific and from all outward appearances (huge sales) very good at what they did. No one questioned whether or not the autographs were right. It was only found that they couldn't be right when the original scans were dug up. If the signatures were blatantly fake, that's one thing. But as we can all see from the high dollar sales of these cards, the signatures fooled almost everyone who came in contact with them.

Have you read Mr. Nash's post on JSA mistakes?

[irv]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Have you read Mr. Nash's post on JSA mistakes?

This is an interesting read! It's long, but worth it, imo.
https://www.riverfronttimes.com/stlo...nt?oid=2505680

I particularly liked the "Cheetah" certified sig story.

But there seems to be no ceiling to PSA and JSA's abilities. In 2010, a dealer submitted the "signature" of Cheetah, the chimpanzee purported to have appeared in the Johnny Weissmuller Tarzan serials of the 1930s. Despite the likelihood that they had no exemplars on file for primates, JSA deemed the scrawl authentic.

As it turns out, Cheetah was an imposter whose owner duped the public before a 2008 Washington Post article uncovered the truth: Weissmuller's chest-thumping co-star was long deceased.

"I don't remember the particulars of that," JSA's James Spence says of his endorsement. "I'm not prepared to answer that. I'd have to refresh my memory. I think it was done tongue in cheek."

JSA would have needed only to perform a cursory Google search to put the chimp's penmanship in context.

[irv]

Just how do places like Coaches Corner and others stay in business?
Millions a year on fake and forgeries but no one bats an eye?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UCGxsGelS50

[painthistorian]

Unfortunately, Coaches Corner for years hid behind & utilized "TPG" services like STAT or Frangipani or Morales or their own certs, all of their business models had the same motives & the common premise. It was a limited but very decorative certificate, the actual wording hid behind the quoted caveat "in their expert opinion" or "to the best of their ability & knowledge" and collectors not as knowledgable would see a "bargain" and go for it with their pocketbooks. Most of their material was fake and most legit autograph dealers did speak out...This happened for years thru SCD and later through their on line premise and actually well "branded & advertised" name......it was obviously a diabolical way of taking novices and taking their money, many unfortunate collectors did not even know they were taken advantage of. In later years, the internet has helped reveal the obvious years of crap being sold but again there are non educated customers.

[jchcollins]

At least this one and the auto is not on the card itself...

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1909-t206-H...t9mA:rk:1:pf:0

[Stampsfan]

Originally Posted by rainier2004

… You need some new breaks and the mechanic charges you 2k you wouldn't go seek more information?...

If my mechanic quoted me $2,000 for brakes, and did not know how to properly spell “brakes”, you’re correct, that would indeed raise a red flag.

Originally Posted by irv

…As it turns out, Cheetah was an imposter whose owner duped the public before a 2008 Washington Post article uncovered the truth: Weissmuller's chest-thumping co-star was long deceased.

Cheetah’s dead???? Ooooooohhhhhhhh Nooooooooooooooo…

[rainier2004]

Originally Posted by Stampsfan

When you pay for something, you expect to get the service performed efficiently and with some expertise.

If I went to my lawyer for his/her opinion, I would be making decisions based on their expertise.

If I went to my accountant for his/her opinion, I would be making decisions based on their expertise.

If I went to my mechanic for his/her opinion, I would be making decisions based on their expertise.

If I went to my doctor for his/her opinion, I would be making decisions based on their expertise.

All of these people theoretically have a skill set that exceed my own; that is why I pay for their services. When people here say you need to educate yourself... well, I don't have time to educate myself on all areas I may need help and advice on. I don't have time to do all the research and educate myself in medicine, law, accounting, or auto mechanics.

Why do we give these guys a free pass for failing? Most people would not be quite so easy to forgive the so-called experts in other professions.

Id have to disagree here. All four of those professions can held accountant and legally prosecuted and it happens all the time. Fraud and malpractice as well as a pile of other charges can accompany those and do all the time.

And my guess is you do perform some homework on this stuff. If you went in to see the doctor for a cough and s/he put you on an antidepressant you wouldn't educate yourself at all? You need some new breaks and the mechanic charges you 2k you wouldn't go seek more information? If you normally get a 5k income tax return and get a new accountant and all of sudden are getting 18k in return you wouldn't follow that up? We do it all the time.

In the end we are responsible for ourselves, medically, financially and everything else. It used to a right of passage in hobby, otherwise you just would get ripped off until you did. If you don't have time to research your "hobby" spending thousands of dollars then maybe you shouldn't be doing this if you place 100% with someone else's opinion. I thought the educating yourself was part of why we did this, its enjoyable, it starts friendships and is a major reason I am part of the hobby.

[irv]

Originally Posted by Duluth Eskimo

Dale,
You’re being naive. There is more forgery in the art world than in almost all antiques. Multi million paintings shown to have been painted years after the artist died. Google search it if you have any questions.

It’s not that I don’t feel bad for some of the guys on this board and the current t206 scandal. I do. Blindly trusting authenticators and auctioneers is dumb. As others have eluded to, specifically the Baker t206, if you can’t see there’s an issue with that than I don’t know what else to say. Many of those cards look like they were signed yesterday or in the same light flowing hand and signed with the same pen. In fact they probably were. I know it’s easy to be a Monday morning quarterback, but many of those clearly have issues.

I now know I was but when I first got back into the hobby and seen these services and the claims they made plus all on here who utilized them, I assumed they were above board.

Originally Posted by packs

How do you know their skill set isn't exactly as advertised? These cards fooled seasoned veteran collectors, some of which specialize in this exact area. People get fooled sometimes. This forger was prolific and from all outward appearances (huge sales) very good at what they did. No one questioned whether or not the autographs were right. It was only found that they couldn't be right when the original scans were dug up. If the signatures were blatantly fake, that's one thing. But as we can all see from the high dollar sales of these cards, the signatures fooled almost everyone who came in contact with them.

Exactly, and why most send things into the "Experts" or "World leading" companies to remove any doubts.

Originally Posted by Daveyc

there has been some speculation as to how long these authenticators actually spend reviewing each signature. I have been attending the HOF induction ceremony for years. James Spence and his crew are always in attendance. He usually has a couple of young guys set up at tables for authenticating autos that are being signed in person. for instance. MAB always sets up and has dozens of signers. you enter through the front door of the Inn where the signing takes place. go to the athlete you paid for and get the sigs. after which, you exit out a back door and walk around to the front of the building where JSA is set up to "authenticate" one guy will enter the player/item into their data base, the other affixes a sticker to the memorabilia. they hardly even look at the item. a forger could bring dozens of baseballs, bats, uniforms etc around the side of the building and get in line for "authentication". I have never seen an item even questioned. it is literally an assembly line. THere is absolutely no authentication going on there, just data entry. I have been watching this for years and years.

James himself also does "authentication" in Cooperstown. he sets up at the small card show. I have watched him work many many times and have been quite underwhelmed. there is usually a pretty long line, and people walk right up to him and have him "authenticate" their items in front of them. this is where vintage items are done. the absolute longest I have ever seen him look at an item is no longer than 20-30 seconds. and that was for a multi signed baseball. it is VERY fast. then he hands the item back, enters the data into his template and boom, LOA.

At least for JSA, we are not even paying for a few minutes of their time when they are authenticating items. It really is just a few seconds. it is very casual, and I felt uncomfortable having the client watching him work. Seems that there could be situations where he could be pressured into passing an item.

that is just my two cents. I was wholly unimpressed by the whole process.

The only thing that would be easier is to just print the money yourself!

Originally Posted by rainier2004

Id have to disagree here. All four of those professions can held accountant and legally prosecuted and it happens all the time. Fraud and malpractice as well as a pile of other charges can accompany those and do all the time.

And my guess is you do perform some homework on this stuff. If you went in to see the doctor for a cough and s/he put you on an antidepressant you wouldn't educate yourself at all? You need some new breaks and the mechanic charges you 2k you wouldn't go seek more information? If you normally get a 5k income tax return and get a new accountant and all of sudden are getting 18k in return you wouldn't follow that up? We do it all the time.

In the end we are responsible for ourselves, medically, financially and everything else. It used to a right of passage in hobby, otherwise you just would get ripped off until you did. If you don't have time to research your "hobby" spending thousands of dollars then maybe you shouldn't be doing this if you place 100% with someone else's opinion. I thought the educating yourself was part of why we did this, its enjoyable, it starts friendships and is a major reason I am part of the hobby.

When companies come out with claims/logos that read "Experts" "World's Best", "World leading", "Guaranteed" "Largest, most trusted" "Never get Taken", etc, etc, etc, they are implying that they know what they are doing.

It's easy, imo, for some who have been in the hobby of collecting for years and years and maybe even before we had these TPA's, to recognize/know the things that have been said in this thread, but I also know there are many every year that join or rejoin the hobby, like me, who don't know all these things.
If these TPA companies weren't so forthright with their claims and logos and put a disclaimer right on the front page stating their grading analysis are only an "opinion", then maybe that would help newbies somewhat to get 2nd and 3rd opinions, but, like I have been saying, when these claims are implied that they are the experts, world leaders, etc, then why would anybody do that?
Look on Ebay, Auctions, etc, and what do people see? They see all 3 of the big TPA's flips so why would they not trust them and think their opinions are the best and legit?

[ALBB]

Yep,
then when the heat is on..or somebody calls them out..it becomes -

Were pretty comfortable with that sig

It "seems " pretty good

Im" leaning" towards its should be OK

[packs]

Every LOA I've ever read beats you over the head with the fact that it's an opinion. Please post any letter from a leading TPG that mentions a guarantee. You won't find one.

I think you missed my point as well. My point was that sometimes forgeries are so good that they manage to fool everyone.

[rainier2004]

Originally Posted by irv

It's easy, imo, for some who have been in the hobby of collecting for years and years and maybe even before we had these TPA's, to recognize/know the things that have been said in this thread, but I also know there are many every year that join or rejoin the hobby, like me, who don't know all these things.
If these TPA companies weren't so forthright with their claims and logos and put a disclaimer right on the front page stating their grading analysis are only an "opinion", then maybe that would help newbies somewhat to get 2nd and 3rd opinions, but, like I have been saying, when these claims are implied that they are the experts, world leaders, etc, then why would anybody do that?
Look on Ebay, Auctions, etc, and what do people see? They see all 3 of the big TPA's flips so why would they not trust them and think their opinions are the best and legit?

I have been the hobby since I was 8 in 1985 prior to the TPGs so I have around 30 years experience in the hobby, I sure would hope that helps me make decisions opposed to be here for a year or so. But the premise is the same whether you started in '85 or 2015, learn as much as possible.

I thought all businesses thought they were 'the best', Ive seen it advertised that way all over the world. A business can make any claim like that and an awful lot do...that doesn't make it so though.

As a RN I feel I have seen change a lot in the medical field, its amazing how many patients have no idea what their diagnosis are and they expectations that we just take care of it. Its a very passive approach in my opinion that gives you a scapegoat any time something went wrong. I will preach educate yourself until my last breath, you are just shorting yourself if you don't.

[1952boyntoncollector]

This all could of been easily avoided.

If submitted for that purple label thing they would of found out all of the forging

Once you go purple label you never go back..

[ALBB]

Hmm ..Purple Labels.....interesting

Odd and Even buses ?... that's a very interesting idea Mr. Norton

[LOUCARDFAN]

When TPG's promote their services and advertise the astounding prices that their authenticated items have achieved then yes they do hold some skin in the game. Would those items that they promote have received the same prices had they not come with their authentication? We all know the answer. They are saying that their authentication was what gave the buyers of those items the "approval" or peace of mind to spend the type of money that was spent.

I know the TPG's have insurance in case an item is destroyed in their possession but how about being bonded/insured on items that they authenticate over a certain dollar level that way everyone is protected. If one is paying $300 to have an autograph like Ruth authenticated, I don't think a little extra would be an issue to spend to have some true peace of mind in case that item is found to be a fake down the line.

Originally Posted by rainier2004

Id have to disagree here. All four of those professions can held accountant and legally prosecuted and it happens all the time. Fraud and malpractice as well as a pile of other charges can accompany those and do all the time.

And my guess is you do perform some homework on this stuff. If you went in to see the doctor for a cough and s/he put you on an antidepressant you wouldn't educate yourself at all? You need some new breaks and the mechanic charges you 2k you wouldn't go seek more information? If you normally get a 5k income tax return and get a new accountant and all of sudden are getting 18k in return you wouldn't follow that up? We do it all the time.

In the end we are responsible for ourselves, medically, financially and everything else. It used to a right of passage in hobby, otherwise you just would get ripped off until you did. If you don't have time to research your "hobby" spending thousands of dollars then maybe you shouldn't be doing this if you place 100% with someone else's opinion. I thought the educating yourself was part of why we did this, its enjoyable, it starts friendships and is a major reason I am part of the hobby.