Fake 52Topps mantle on Ebay

[25801wv]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...:X:RTQ:US:1123

I once was fooled on a purchase almost exactly like this one. I took the frame apart once I got it & the holder was cracked & a fake Mantle was in it. Luckily Paypal refunded my $$$. I suspect this one is also fake. See the answer below when I asked if he would take pics of the card.



Dear 25801wv,

no, it is framed, not going to break the frame, sorry.

- asw37
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From: 25801wv
To: asw37
Subject: Details about item: 25801wv sent a message about Framed PSA 1 1952 topps #312 Mickey Mantle Rookie Card + PSA DNA Business Card #161052484050
Sent Date: Jul-05-13 12:47:19 PDT


Dear asw37,

Can you add front & back scan of just the 52 Topps Mantle (outside of the frame). Once you do so I will make an offer.

Thank you

[the 'stache]

Ya, that's highly suspicious. I'd need to see pictures of him holding the card, front and back. Who's to say he just grabbed that back pic from the web?

Also, "no returns or exchanges" on a card that could fetch $10k +? Ah, no thank you.

[xcgrammer]

plus he doesn't even know the real number the card is in the set. 312? fail.

[asw37]

removed

[thecatspajamas]

Why is the PSA slab shattered like that, but the surrounding frame job appears unabashed?

Also, you do realize that by refusing to answer questions and put these concerns to rest, you will wind up costing yourself far more in final bid price than what it would cost to completely redo the framing, right? For every potential bidder who took the time to ask questions, there are a dozen others that take a pass for the same reasons. All those lost bids really do add up.

[asw37]

removed

[whitehse]

Originally Posted by asw37

Please dont call my card fake when you have no proof. I have done 2000+ transactions on ebay with no issues. This framed card and business card combo was purchased from a prestigious, well known auction. Because I will not break open a framed piece, the card is now fake? I am all for being open, but you are just a total moron calling me out and falsely calling this fake, simply because I will not cater to you and destroy a nice display piece.

Its funny, I can list any t206 or vintage card in a psa slab, but now my slabbed mantle is being attacked because I will not break a framed product.

Also, Xcgrammer, thanks for the contribution to the conversation, you seem like the type of guy who keeps all of his buddies laughing! I made a typo when listing the number and it has had offers on it since, preventing me from revising.

There are red flags all over your auction starting with no returns. How about a bit more information as to who this prestigious auction house was from where you purchased it. If you are asking someone to pony up nearly 10K for this auction a bit more information and reassurance from you would go a long way to selling this item. Or perhaps as the prestigious auction house to sell it for you again.

[Sean1125]

Everything about this card leads me to believe it is a 100% authentic variation A 1952 Mickey Mantle.

[asw37]

Originally Posted by whitehse

There are red flags all over your auction starting with no returns. How about a bit more information as to who this prestigious auction house was from where you purchased it. If you are asking someone to pony up nearly 10K for this auction a bit more information and reassurance from you would go a long way to selling this item. Or perhaps as the prestigious auction house to sell it for you again.

First off, where is this 10,000 price tag coming from? I feel like one idiot attacks and then circus comes out. I am obviosly not going to win arguing here. All I know is that PSA and I both know that this card is real. There are some great collectors and others like the troll who started this thread. I don't know what I am not answering. He asked me to show him the card outside of the frame. I dont realy see a grey area between yes or now where I could accomidate him.

[thecatspajamas]

Originally Posted by asw37

that slab is not shattered, it is creasing in the back of the card, there is no crack in the slab.

I was actually referring to the front view, but now that I look at the back more closely, I see what you mean about the creasing.

I still stand by the rest of my statement though. You're not doing yourself any favors by taking a combative stance rather than helping assuage bidders' doubts.

[asw37]

removed

[whitehse]

The circus hasn't come out as you mentioned. This is a message board where people talk about *gasp* sports cards and your item happens to fit that criteria. You are doing yourself no favors by not showing that card out of the frame as others have mentioned. Do what you want...we are just offering opinions.

Now I need to get back to my clown car and get ready for the next showing of the Net54 Circus.

[Texxxx]

I agree with most here. Take it out and make some scans. It want destroy the frame to take it out. It needs a new mat on the back anyway because of the creases.

[4815162342]

This belongs in the postwar forum.

[nsaddict]

Sorry, the card is fake in my opinion. The borders are narrow all the way around, check others on ebay and you will see the difference. You should send it to PSA to take a look at it but doubt you would. Did you buy this on craigslist? Please list the auction house with date and lot number.

[asw37]

removed

[Texxxx]

Well scratch me off your list of possible buyers!

See how it works?

[Eric72]

Andrew,

I don't have enough experience with the 1952 Topps Mantle to weigh in on its authenticity. Having said this, I will offer you an opinion regarding eBay, where I have sold numerous things across the span of 10+ years.

If it was my item (and it's not - this is just an opinion) I would consider ending the auction and re-listing it with the correct card number in the title.

I would also then be prepared to answer any and all questions that came down the pike from prospective bidders...whether they present their question directly through eBay or on a forum such as this.

Additionally, I would treat all such queries seriously, and put my best customer service foot forward. After all, we are discussing a sale in the thousands of dollars. This may not be a big deal to some; however, it would be a high priority endeavor for me.

Please forgive me if this rubs you the wrong way. I truly am just trying to add value to the conversation here.

Best Regards,

Eric

[Sean1125]

I still think the card is authentic based on what I can see in the photographs... It would be great if you could post the auction house... I don't know if you are concerned about us seeing the price you pay but I don't think any of us care or it really matters - you can ask what you want - but posting the auction house would add to any credibility the card may have.

[tiger8mush]

Originally Posted by asw37

If he or you wants to pay for the reframe, I will gladly take it out

Forgive my ignorance, but the frames I'm familiar with allow for the contents of the frame to be removed (with time + care + patience) without destroying the frame.

[whitehse]

Originally Posted by tiger8mush

Forgive my ignorance, but the frames I'm familiar with allow for the contents of the frame to be removed (with time + care + patience) without destroying the frame.

Don't let facts get in the way of a good argument against good customer service and selling a high dollar item!!

[xcgrammer]

Andrew my apologies. Believe me I know typo's can happen. Was in poor taste. I actually believe the card to be real as well. Just seems like an odd thing to frame. But to each his own.

[ATP]

For reference sake, here is a similar piece that sold on eBay, framed in the same manner.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1952-Topps-M...p2047675.l2557

Interestingly enough the Mantle sig is not good on it in my opinion. The color of the Mantle card and creasing is very similar to the OP's. Unless the camera flash is doing something odd, the creasing does not appear right on either, it's just too white at the breaks especially on the reverse.

[ATP]

And here is the OP's from a couple months back, from a seller with 4 feedback.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mickey-Mantl...p2047675.l2557

Look at the creasing evident in the photos from this listing, it is not natural in any way in my opinion.

[camlov2]

Originally Posted by asw37

This framed card and business card combo was purchased from a prestigious, well known auction.

wait... I am confused... is ebay the "prestigious, well known auction"?

[thecatspajamas]

Originally Posted by Texxxx

It needs a new mat on the back anyway because of the creases.

Which weren't there when it was sold a couple months back...

[GoldenAge50s]

This framed card and business card combo was purchased from a prestigious, well known auction.

It's amazingly simple! Give the auction facts to support your statement!

[CW]

let's see, we've got a card that has way too much red color in Mickey's face, borders that look way too thin, creasing that looks contrived, a surface with virtually no snow or scuff marks (but a LOT of creasing), and the corners are abnormally nice (ie. not consistent with the creasing).

Add in to all that, why in the hell would anyone frame a graded '52 Topps Mantle along with a cheap auto'ed card? It's all beyond me. (this doesn't even mention the irate, overly-defensive seller that bought it from a "prestigious, well known auction").

Why does this hobby have to suck so much?

I stand by everything in this post -- €hû¢k Wölƒƒ

p.s. nice detective work, Jeff!

[CW]

Seriously, those that know '52 Topps Mantles... you guys think this is real???

[ATP]

No, it is not. That photo is clear enough to see that the printing method is not correct on the card, among all the other things mentioned. Case closed.

[CW]

For the record, this is nothing personal against the current ebay seller. I don't think he is knowingly selling a fake card, just trying to resell an item for profit perhaps. I also think he may not be willing to face the fact that he bought a fake himself, which is understandable.

Still, it's not fair for someone else to be taken by this scam. It's just unfortunate all around.

[ATP]

The current seller and board member still can probably push this one back through eBay against the person he bought it from. Looks like it has been just about 60 days. I look at 52 mantles a lot, and now that I think about it I have seen several a year like this, very low grade and odd looking, psa 1, framed up with cheap item autographs.

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by asw37

First off, where is this 10,000 price tag coming from? I feel like one idiot attacks and then circus comes out. I am obviosly not going to win arguing here. All I know is that PSA and I both know that this card is real. There are some great collectors and others like the troll who started this thread. I don't know what I am not answering. He asked me to show him the card outside of the frame. I dont realy see a grey area between yes or now where I could accomidate him.

Firstly, you're not going to ingratiate yourself here by calling posters "idiots" and "morons" for expressing what are valid concerns about your auction. I know if I were selling a piece that could conceivably fetch several thousand dollars, I would bend over backwards to allay the fears a potential buyer might have. You're already fighting an uphill battle because of your no return policy, and the inflexibility in your reply raised another red flag. Then followed your comment "all I know is that PSA and I both know that this card is real" is a little disconcerting, too. Are you unaware of the problem that exists with PSA slabs being faked and cracked? Don't ever assume a card is legitimate because it is encapsulated by a third party grader. Any collector worth their mettle will tell you that you buy the card, not the grade. Additionally, the 1952 Topps Mickey Mantle is one of the most often faked/altered cards in the hobby, and asking for additional pictures is not only smart, but pretty much accepted etiquette within the hobby.

One of my friends owns a well-respected art gallery in Las Vegas, and deals extensively with custom framing jobs like this one (including custom pieces he has done for me). Based on prior conversations we've had, I'm relatively certain that the Mantle card could be removed for closer inspection without doing permanent damage to the frame and display. You might need to take it to an art dealer to have this done, and they might charge you a nominal fee, but wouldn't it be worth it? What's $50 to a buyer that is going to spend $3,500 on a card? It could mean peace of mind, and get you a sale.

In your initial response to the member inquiring about the piece, you could have mentioned that the piece was purchased from an auction house. If you have provenance to help to establish the legitimacy of the piece, you would be well served to provide that information. You don't have to show them what you paid, but a sales receipt showing your name and address, along with the description and picture(s) of the piece, could help legitimize your piece.

As for my original assertion that the card could fetch $10,000, I freely admit I misread the grade on the Mantle. I've been in the hospital fighting sepsis for two weeks after breaking my leg in two places, and with the glare on my tiny laptop screen, my fever and multiple medications and antibiotics floating throughout my body, I goofed. I thought I saw the grade was higher than a 1. However, you have a lot of nerve to suggest that I or any other member of this forum are members of some circus. Because of the money involved, this hobby, unfortunately, is rife with with unscrupulous people looking to rip off honest enthusiasts. As such, the members of this forum use their vast knowledge and experience to help police the hobby, and when we see something that raises suspicion, we will alert the other members. We protect one another, as well as others that might fall victim to deceitful auctions on Ebay. In this case, Eugene stated he suspected your card was fake, and provided supporting reasons as to his opinion. I interpreted his topic as an alert to anybody who might be in the market for this particular card. I did not see anything that could be construed as an attempt to defame you.

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by CW

let's see, we've got a card that has way too much red color in Mickey's face, borders that look way too thin, creasing that looks contrived, a surface with virtually no snow or scuff marks (but a LOT of creasing), and the corners are abnormally nice (ie. not consistent with the creasing).

Add in to all that, why in the hell would anyone frame a graded '52 Topps Mantle along with a cheap auto'ed card? It's all beyond me. (this doesn't even mention the irate, overly-defensive seller that bought it from a "prestigious, well known auction").

Why does this hobby have to suck so much?

I stand by everything in this post -- €hû¢k Wölƒƒ

p.s. nice detective work, Jeff!

Chuck, I have to agree about the coloring.

http://home.comcast.net/~52mantle/52toppsmantlereal.htm

This card is a type A, and the hue and saturation are way off, in my opinion.

[bigwinnerx]

I wouldn't touch it with yours.

[asw37]

removed

[t206fix]

I think another big question is this crease - how does a crease start at the bottom of the card and end cleanly at another crease? I don't think you could do this if you tried (origami experts excluded).

[HOF Yankees]

tough call it being real or not

[jimq]

Before you break it out of the frame and send it to psa, take a close up photo or scan of the lower right area of the holder. It doesn't really look like a psa holder at all. Breaking it out and sending a fake holder to psa might not get you much relief.

Look for the psa logo on other mantles and then look at yours.

You also might want to contact the auction to give them a heads up.

[buymycards]

Andrew - you don't need to send the card to PSA. 30 seconds with a ten dollar loupe will tell you if it is real and you can buy a cheap 1952 common card and compare it to the Mantle. BTW, which auction house was it purchased from?

Rick

[Sean1125]

Where did you get the better picture CW? I guess with that picture shown the pictures for this auction are taken at such an angle to deceive... I would like to hear the resolution to this when all is said and done (whether the card is real or fake and what happens to it).

[deucetwins]

Originally Posted by ATP

The current seller and board member still can probably push this one back through eBay against the person he bought it from. Looks like it has been just about 60 days. I look at 52 mantles a lot, and now that I think about it I have seen several a year like this, very low grade and odd looking, psa 1, framed up with cheap item autographs.

So is the bigger issue here PSA slabbing obvious fakes? Or are the scammers using counterfeit slab cases and photoshopping the PSA label. Couple of other questions to consider: 1) Is there anyway to cross-check the barcode and/or cert. # with PSA? (again, I know this could be photo shopped from another like-card for sale on eBay), 2) PSA's slabs are supposed to be sonically sealed. Any way to check this?

Chuck, I know you buy the card not the grade, but the TPG's have to be able to provide some assurance to prospective buyers or else why have TPG's at all?

[xcgrammer]

upon seeing the better picture I tend to agree with it's authenticity being a very tough call. I face does appear to be very (too) red.

[CW]

Originally Posted by Sean1125

Where did you get the better picture CW?

It was posted by Jeff (ATP) in post #24, from a previous ebay auction.

Originally Posted by deucetwins

So is the bigger issue here PSA slabbing obvious fakes? Or are the scammers using counterfeit slab cases and photoshopping the PSA label.

More than likely a compromised slap with a real label, but a fake card inserted.

Couple of other questions to consider: 1) Is there anyway to cross-check the barcode and/or cert. # with PSA? (again, I know this could be photo shopped from another like-card for sale on eBay),

Yes, if you google "PSA cert verification" you'll find a link. You can also upload images or scans of cards to this website to check if the barcode is legit (I checked on the Mantle in question and the barcode matches the cert number).

2) PSA's slabs are supposed to be sonically sealed. Any way to check this?

Yes.

http://www.psacard.com/Services/PSAHolder/

and a couple examples of frosting

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=145376

Chuck, I know you buy the card not the grade, but the TPG's have to be able to provide some assurance to prospective buyers or else why have TPG's at all?

Could not agree more.

[ATP]

Come on guys, look closely at the card. Forget that it's in a holder. There is nothing about it that says authentic. I see no evidence of half tone printing, none at all. With a picture as clear as the last one you should be able to see the "little targets", I can't think of their technical term so that is what I call them, that make up the printing area of the colored part. The corners are too sharp and white for the amount of creasing, should it even be real creasing...it is however too contrived. The color is way wrong. Out of the case we wouldn't give this more than a second glance. There is no way psa holdered this card. It is a fake, put in a cracked or fake slab and hidden in the framing to distract. Probably just like the other one I posted from eBay that was similar. It's a similar tactic as with autographs, place it in an elaborate frame to try to improve appearance and make it hard to inspect. This is nothing against the board member selling it, I don't think he knows it is fake. Whatever action house this was purchased from needles to investigate it further. If the seller can take a really close macro photo of the printing, we can have our definitive answer instantly as we would be able to see it as it would appear under a loop, and I can assure you it will not be half tone printed. If I am wrong, I will be the first to admit it.

[nolemmings]

I do not collect '52s, but agree with Jeff that this one isn't even close. Almost nothing about that card looks genuine to me. The most tell-tale sign is the supposed creasing. There is no way any 60 year-old card can have those severe "creases" and at the same time display ex-mt or stronger corners and edges with ZERO surface wear. Never mind the saturated colors.

If you took a new modern card today and sat on it, folded it or whatever to create such creasing, you MIGHT be able to pull off a look like that. Now tell me it's 1952 and you would carefully take care of such a damaged card for even 10 years--let's say while Mickey was excelling and you realized your only '52 card of him was creased-- so as to keep the corners/edges nice and the colors looking brand new. Then think that it's 1962, and while good hobby supplies are 15 years or so away, you're not going to handle it and will preserve it even longer, presumably while you've handled your other '52s and all subsequent cards like any other young collector. Fast forward decades more and voila, you've successfully saved this specimen from its early catastrophe and are now ready to offer it up to a loving hobby home. Now tell me that your wife is Morgan Fairchild--yeah, that's the ticket.

[atx840]

Waiting at the bank to lock up some cards and read the thread....figured I would snap a photo of Mr Mantle...quite the difference.

[e107collector]

Chris,

That's a great looking card for a "3." Congrats.

I also agree with your statement. After comparing the card in question to your authentic example, the one on ebay appears to be a counterfeit. The coloring is too deep, and the bottom border appears to have been trimmed/handcut.

Tony

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by atx840

Waiting at the bank to lock up some cards and read the thread....figured I would snap a photo of Mr Mantle...quite the difference.

What a beautiful card, Chris!

[Sean]

I'm pretty sure that this is Chris' card that he got from his father, who actually pulled it out of the pack in '52.