NonSports Forum

Net54baseball.com
Welcome to Net54baseball.com. These forums are devoted to both Pre- and Post- war baseball cards and vintage memorabilia, as well as other sports. There is a separate section for Buying, Selling and Trading - the B/S/T area!! If you write anything concerning a person or company your full name needs to be in your post or obtainable from it. . Contact the moderator at leon@net54baseball.com should you have any questions or concerns. When you click on links to eBay on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network. Enjoy!
Net54baseball.com
Net54baseball.com
ebay GSB
T206s on eBay
Babe Ruth Cards on eBay
t206 Ty Cobb on eBay
Ty Cobb Cards on eBay
Lou Gehrig Cards on eBay
Baseball T201-T217 on eBay
Baseball E90-E107 on eBay
T205 Cards on eBay
Baseball Postcards on eBay
Goudey Cards on eBay
Baseball Memorabilia on eBay
Baseball Exhibit Cards on eBay
Baseball Strip Cards on eBay
Baseball Baking Cards on eBay
Sporting News Cards on eBay
Play Ball Cards on eBay
Joe DiMaggio Cards on eBay
Mickey Mantle Cards on eBay
Bowman 1951-1955 on eBay
Football Cards on eBay

Go Back   Net54baseball.com Forums > Net54baseball Main Forum - WWII & Older Baseball Cards > Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 11-30-2010, 07:07 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
Ted Zanidakis
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Pennsylvania & Maine
Posts: 10,053
Default Final confirmation of the T206 AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 & UZIT matched "twins"

The hypothesis that T206's with American Beauty 460 and Uzit backs were printed with identical fronts has been confirmed for the 350/460
series subjects. These cards were issued in the Spring of 1911 at the tail end of the T206 production run. The 29 cards listed here represent
the final count of the AB 460 / Uzit matched "twins".


[linked image][linked image]





350/460 series......................29 cards with both AB 460 and UZIT backs

Ames (hands/air)
Berger
Bradley (bat)
Burch (fielding)
Cobb (bat off)
Conroy (bat)
Crawford (bat)
Jennings (one hand)
Jennings (two hands)
Jordan (bat)
Lajoie (bat)
Lake (no ball-St Louis)
Leach (cap)
Leifield (bat)
Manning (pitching)
McQuillan (bat)
Mullin (bat)
Overall (yellow sky)
Pelty (vertical)
Pfeister (throwing)
Smith (Chicago & Boston)
Steinfeldt (bat)
Tinker (bat off)
Wagner (bat on right)
Doc White (pitching)
Wilhelm (bat)
Willetts
Willis (bat)
Wiltse (pitching)


Furthermore, there has been a near complete confirmation of another group of 460 series backs that are matched "twins". These cards
complement the above group....namely Broad Leaf 460 and Red Hindu cards. These will be the subject of a forthcoming thread.

I am quite confident that this list of 29 cards is a complete run. But, if any one can add to it, it will be really appreciated.


TED Z

Last edited by tedzan; 04-06-2017 at 09:03 AM. Reason: Added Frank Smith (Chicago & Boston) to the list.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 11-30-2010, 09:31 PM
Abravefan11's Avatar
Abravefan11 Abravefan11 is offline
Tim
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Virginia
Posts: 1,466
Default

Ted -

A few things regarding the group above.

First I believe that F. Smith (Chicago & Boston) belongs on this list. His card is really a 350/460 with this team change designation appearing only in the 460 series. His card is absent from the Sovereign 460 run which consists of only those cards added during the 460 series. This brings the above list to 29. Any back that includes all of the 28 listed will include the Smith (Chicago & Boston) as well.

Secondly based on my research it's my opinion that these 29 cards were more than likely not printed on the same sheets during the American Beauty and Uzit print runs. They can all be found with both backs but this isn't proof they were printed on the same sheet as they were part of a larger group printed.

Again these are just my opinions and I understand if you feel differently.
__________________
T206 & Boston National Type Card Collector
T206Resource.com
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 12-01-2010, 09:48 AM
tedzan tedzan is offline
Ted Zanidakis
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Pennsylvania & Maine
Posts: 10,053
Default Final confirmation of the T206 AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 & UZIT matched "twins"

Tim

This Frank Smith card is certainly a 350/460 subject and this card is found with AB 460 and UZIT backs. I was hesitant to include this card
in this list, since it has not been found with any 350 series backs. And this has confused some T206 collectors. Nevertheless, I have added
Frank Smith (Chicago & Boston) to this list.

Now, I'm not sure I understand this paragraph of yours......

" Secondly based on my research it's my opinion that these 29 cards were more than likely not printed on the same sheets during
the American Beauty and Uzit print runs. They can all be found with both backs but this isn't proof they were printed on the same
sheet as they were part of a larger group printed. "

I didn't say that AB 460 & UZIT backs were simultaneously printed on the same sheet of T206's. The printing was done on separate sheets
that contained identical fronts. I will try to clarify this for those who are trying to follow this, here goes......

The American Beauty 460 cards differ from the two AB 350 backs, in that the AB 460 cards were inserted in cigarette packs at the L & M
plant in Durham, NC (Factory 42). This is significant, as it indicates that American Litho (ALC) printed and issued the AB 460 cards in early
1911. DITTO goes for the PIEDMONT 460/42 cards and the SWEET CAPORAL 460/42 cards.

And, at the tail end of the T206 press runs the LENOX and the UZIT cards were printed and issued (circa Spring 1911). ALC records confirm
this. My contention is that ALC during early 1911 was printing the AB 460 backs on existing pre-printed sheets of T206 fronts. At the same
time (using these identical pre-printed T206 sheets), ALC also printed the UZIT backs. Not necessarily on sheets as small as 29-cards; but,
larger sheets where some of these cards were double-printed. I can say this from my experiencm collecting the AB 460 sub-set of 75 cards,
where certain 350/460 cards are significantly tougher to find than others.

This hypothesis is the best explanation for the coincidence of these matched twins in the 350/460 series. It also explains the coincidence of
BROAD LEAF 460 and Red HINDU cards from the 350/460 series as matched twins.

Furthermore, the fact that AB 460 & UZIT cards are mutually exclusive with BROAD LEAF 460 & Red HINDU cards reinforces this theory.

Finally, the same applies to AB 350 (no frame) cards with matched fronts with DRUM cards in the 350/460 series.


Tim, I'm interested in hearing your thoughts on these subjects.

Thanks,

TED Z
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 12-01-2010, 11:39 AM
sreader3 sreader3 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 1,222
Default

Ted,

Congratulations on confirming these important interrelationships.

I know how difficult this must have been given how bad data points can so easily obfuscate.

Scot
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 12-01-2010, 12:59 PM
Abravefan11's Avatar
Abravefan11 Abravefan11 is offline
Tim
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Virginia
Posts: 1,466
Default

I believe based on my research that the only run of Broad Leaf 460 and the first run of Red Hindu cards shared the same preprinted front images. This sheet was comprised of 34 images that included the following cards.

Baker, Frank
Bender, Chief (No Trees)
Brown, Mordecai (Chicago On Shirt)
Chance, Frank (Portrait - Yellow)
Chase, Hal (Portrait - Blue)
Chase, Hal (Black Cap)
Cobb, Ty (Portrait - Red)
Davis, Harry (Davis On Front)
Donlin, Mike (With Bat)
Doolan, Mickey (Batting)
Dougherty, Patsy (Arm In Air)
Downey, Tom (Batting)
Doyle, Larry (With Bat)
Elberfeld, Kid (Fielding)
Evers, Johnny (Chicago On Shirt - Yellow Sky)
Griffith, Clark (Batting)
Johnson, Walter (Glove At Chest)
Joss, Addie (Hands At Chest)
Kleinow, Red (Boston - Catching)
Konetchy, Ed (Glove Near Ground)
Magee, Sherry (With Bat)
Mathewson, Christy (Dark Cap)
McIntyre, Harry (Brooklyn & Chicago)
Murphy, Danny (Batting)
O'Leary, Charley (Hands On Knees)
Reulbach, Ed (No Glove Showing)
Rucker, Nap (Throwing)
Seymour, Cy (Throwing)
Snodgrass, Fred (Catching)
Stahl, Jake (Glove Shows)
Street, Gabby (Catching)
Sweeney, Jeff
Willis, Vic (Throwing)
Young, Cy (With Glove)

This group is made up entirely of 350-460 Subjects. If one of these 34 can be found with a Red Hindu it can be found with a Broad Leaf 460 as they shared the same sheet composition. The single print run and group of Broad Leaf 460's gives us that definitive look at a particular print run at a specific moment.

There was another print run of Red Hindu's at a later date with a different front image combination which included 12 460 Only players but Broad Leaf 460's were not run again.

When looking at the other 350-460 group of 29 they do not have a print run like the Broad Leaf 460 that shows us they were all printed together. Every print run that they are included with also includes many other players that could have been mixed with them on the various sheets for each back.

American Beauty - 75
Cycle - 109
Uzit - 50 (to date)

So while we can say definitively that all 29 were included in a specific back run, I don't think there is enough evidence to say that they were all on the same preprinted front sheet. But I also can't say with 100% certainty that they weren't on the same sheet, it is just highly unlikely in my opinion based on the data.
__________________
T206 & Boston National Type Card Collector
T206Resource.com

Last edited by Abravefan11; 12-01-2010 at 01:40 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 12-01-2010, 05:48 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
Ted Zanidakis
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Pennsylvania & Maine
Posts: 10,053
Default

Tim

I have 30 confirmed Red HINDU cards. We differ in the following......

Cobb
Dougherty
Murphy
Reulbach

With the exception of the Cobb, I expect the other 3 to eventually surface with Red HINDU backs. Do you have scans of these last three ?

As for the Red Cobb, the one auctioned off 1 1/2 years ago appears to be a re-fronted fake. No other one has been seen. Indeed, none
of the four T206 Cobb's have been seen with either a Red or Brown HINDU back.


Now, regarding your......
"When looking at the other 350-460 group of 29 they do not have a print run like the Broad Leaf 460 that shows us they were
all printed together. Every print run that they are included with also includes many other players that could have been mixed
with them on the various sheets for each back."

Please clarify this statement, as I don't understand what you are getting at ?

Again, I'll reprise what I previously have said....I can say this from my experience collecting the AB 460 sub-set of 75 cards, that certain
350/460 cards are significantly tougher to find than others. To me, this implies that a number of cards on this sheet were Double-Printed.
Which would suggest that the 29 - AB 460 cards from the 350/460 series were printed on a sheet larger than just 29 cards.

I will check my records on my 6-year adventure collected this sub-set and list my accounting of the Single-Prints versus the Double-Prints.


TED Z
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 12-01-2010, 06:42 PM
Abravefan11's Avatar
Abravefan11 Abravefan11 is offline
Tim
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Virginia
Posts: 1,466
Default

Cobb, Dougherty, Murphy, and Reulbach have all be confirmed with Broad Leaf 460 so if my contention that all Broad Leaf 460's were also printed with Red Hindu's is true then they should have been printed.

I realize the Cobb Red Hindu that was sold not to long ago had a great deal of doubt surrounding it and I won't argue one way or the other for it's being good. I will just say I believe a Cobb (Red Portrait) Red Hindu is a possible front back combination.

The 29 350-460 players on the Uzit - American Beauty 460 list were not printed as part of a small print run like the Broad Leaf 460's. So it is difficult to conclude with certainty that they were all printed on the same sheet simply because they can be found with the same back. They all can be found with Cycle 460 as well as several other backs so I have no evidence that in every instance or even two that all 29 were printed on the same sheet when they are part of a much larger group.

Again this is just my opinion based on what I have researched.
__________________
T206 & Boston National Type Card Collector
T206Resource.com

Last edited by Abravefan11; 12-01-2010 at 06:47 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 12-01-2010, 07:06 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
Ted Zanidakis
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Pennsylvania & Maine
Posts: 10,053
Default

Tim

When I first hypothesized about the BROAD LEAF 460 / Red HINDU matched twins, I figured there would be a rule breaker or two.
Or, that we may never know for sure about some of the Red HINDU cards. Unfortunately, due to the fact that many of the com-
mon Red HINDU's were bought up by the scam "artists" to create re-fronted star cards 10 years ago. Therefore, your contention
may not materialize. For example, by now I would think that Wonka would have found a Red HINDU Murphy (batting) card.

Speaking about re-fronted cards, reminds me of that Red cobb / red HINDU card. Why would you expect any T206 Cobb to have
a HINDU back ?

In 30+ years, I have not seen any of the four T206 Cobb's with a HINDU back....have you ? ?


TED Z
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 12-01-2010, 07:18 PM
Abravefan11's Avatar
Abravefan11 Abravefan11 is offline
Tim
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Virginia
Posts: 1,466
Default

Of the four Cobb poses the only one that should show up is the Red Portrait - Red Hindu for reasons previously stated. Cobb - Bat Off Shoulder was in the opposite 350-460 group during the 460 series and printed with an Uzit back precluding it from being printed with a Red Hindu.

One would think that either the Green Portrait or Bat On Shoulder Cobb would have been included in the Brown Hindu print run but they were not.

Regarding the Murphy I hold out more hope for finding that card than any of the other unknowns and hope it finds John well so he can complete his back run.
__________________
T206 & Boston National Type Card Collector
T206Resource.com

Last edited by Abravefan11; 12-01-2010 at 07:19 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 12-01-2010, 08:34 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
Ted Zanidakis
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Pennsylvania & Maine
Posts: 10,053
Default Final confirmation of the T206 AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 & UZIT matched "twins"

Scot R.

Thanks....and believe me, your data base that you provided me 5 years ago, combined with my data (since I first started collecting T206's)
has helped make this work a lot less difficult than it may appear. Actually, it's been a tremendous adventure.

Best regards,

TED Z
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 12-02-2010, 09:11 AM
tedzan tedzan is offline
Ted Zanidakis
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Pennsylvania & Maine
Posts: 10,053
Default Final confirmation of the T206 AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 & UZIT matched "twins"

[linked image]


From my 6-year adventure of putting together an AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 sub-set (which is nearly complete), I
would venture to say that the following 8 cards from the 350/460 series must have been Single-Printed on the
sheet (as these cards have been significantly tougher to find than the other 20 cards from this series).

Conroy (bat)
Bradley (bat)
Leach (cap)
Manning (pitching)
Overall (sunset sky)
Doc White (pitching)
Wilhelm (bat)
Wiltse (pitching)


I'm curious if any one else on this forum has had a similar experience with any of the 75 cards in this AB sub-set ?


TED Z
Reply With Quote
Reply



Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
FYI....T206 AMERICAN BEAUTY 350 fr..350 nofr..460 confirmed lists tedzan Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions 43 02-10-2016 09:33 AM
MISSION ACCOMPLISHED (I think)....American Beauty 460 set Archive Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions 23 11-25-2008 04:27 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 06:31 AM.


ebay GSB