Outed cards, now including a 130K gain on an Aaron rookie

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

Leon, that would be a great thread. It would be even better if there was constructive discussion and the usual angry responders didn’t chime in with the same, obvious drivel that they post time and again (I imagine that for me, half the thread’s responses will be blanked out thanks to my ignore user list).

Anyway, I think it could make for a great thread.

Meanwhile, does anyone know how to get ahold of the guy who the made video? If so, can you pm me contact info - I would like to encourage that person to please continue and posting those videos.

LOL, ya know I'll make an Angry comment...cause I'm actually angry about it..

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by SOX75

Hi, that would be me. I'm on this board, but don't post very often. I've appreciated reading the dialogue and learning about how these altered cards are discovered. You can PM me here if you'd like to talk more. I do plan on continuing to make these videos, but they are obviously very time intensive and difficult to balance with the rest of my life. The support the previous videos have gotten has been encouraging me to continue.

Keith

Thanks Keith for the GREAT Videos (Trimming scandal for dummies).

Much appreciate the style and content of your videos. THANKS!

[samosa4u]

I love your videos, Keith. You get directly to the point and I find them very easy to follow.

I will send you a PM later today.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by SOX75

Hi, that would be me. I'm on this board, but don't post very often. I've appreciated reading the dialogue and learning about how these altered cards are discovered. You can PM me here if you'd like to talk more. I do plan on continuing to make these videos, but they are obviously very time intensive and difficult to balance with the rest of my life. The support the previous videos have gotten has been encouraging me to continue.

Keith

Keith thank you for the excellent work sir :-) as always keep up the good fight sir. Happy Thanksgiving I to your and your family.

[Johnny630]

Keith respectfully is there anyway and or interest in setting up at all the major card shows across this great country with these videos and the blowout discoveries threads posted on large computer screens above said table/booth ?

Thanks

[1952boyntoncollector]

Nice Keith, glad to see we both are looking out for the hobby..

maraca cards...

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

LOL that's a big slice.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...2&postcount=86

Keep denying, Orlando and Sloan.

And a pretty big profit...

The uglier altered version sold for 42 X the price of the original.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by perezfan

And a pretty big profit...

The uglier altered version sold for 42 X the price of the original.

Wow Agree Mark !! These guys, the cutters, look for oversized cards to Slice and Dice.

[SOX75]

Thanks for the warm welcome guys...sincerely appreciate it! I've been working on videos on the trimming and altering fraud for months and plan to continue. There are times when I am stuck because of a lack of knowledge about the Hobby and it would be helpful to have some help from the users here during those moments. Thanks again!

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by SOX75

Thanks for the warm welcome guys...sincerely appreciate it! I've been working on videos on the trimming and altering fraud for months and plan to continue. There are times when I am stuck because of a lack of knowledge about the Hobby and it would be helpful to have some help from the users here during those moments. Thanks again!

Feel free to private message me anytime you would like.

Thank You

[CuriousGeorge]

An absolutely incredible job! It is amazing the time and effort you put into this and I believe this will be very helpful to many people. Thank you very much!

Originally Posted by SOX75

Hi, that would be me. I'm on this board, but don't post very often. I've appreciated reading the dialogue and learning about how these altered cards are discovered. You can PM me here if you'd like to talk more. I do plan on continuing to make these videos, but they are obviously very time intensive and difficult to balance with the rest of my life. The support the previous videos have gotten has been encouraging me to continue.

Keith

[tribefan]

Great job on the video!

[benjulmag]

Originally Posted by SOX75

Thanks for the warm welcome guys...sincerely appreciate it! I've been working on videos on the trimming and altering fraud for months and plan to continue. There are times when I am stuck because of a lack of knowledge about the Hobby and it would be helpful to have some help from the users here during those moments. Thanks again!

That truly is an outstanding piece of investigative reporting, with staggering implications, both from a civil and criminal perspective. Presumably the FBI has been alerted to your video.

This Board has lamented on the apparent lack of knowledge of this scandal by the general collecting public, and has theorized what significantly increased public knowledge might have on the market value of high grade PSA-slabbed cards. Have you ever considered reaching out to 60 minutes or some similar journalistic outlet about this matter? If a national news company was to air your video, augmented by additional reporting, that could generate public exposure of sufficient magnitude to be a catalyst to significantly advance the weeding out this fraud and bringing to justice those involved.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by benjulmag

That truly is an outstanding piece of investigative reporting, with staggering implications, both from a civil and criminal perspective. Presumably the FBI has been alerted to your video.

This Board has lamented on the apparent lack of knowledge of this scandal by the general collecting public, and has theorized what significantly increased public knowledge might have on the market value of high grade PSA-slabbed cards. Have you ever considered reaching out to 60 minutes or some similar journalistic outlet about this matter? If a national news company was to air your video, augmented by additional reporting, that could generate public exposure of sufficient magnitude to be a catalyst to significantly advance the weeding out this fraud and bringing to justice those involved.

so far no implications from the civil perspective considering how this has rocked the hobby as some have said. All we hear about is FBI this and that. Videos like yours should help the cause

We should have a Mt. Rushmore for Maraca cards..with a mexican theme....maybe use famous mexican moutain range..

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Originally Posted by SOX75

Thanks for the warm welcome guys...sincerely appreciate it! I've been working on videos on the trimming and altering fraud for months and plan to continue. There are times when I am stuck because of a lack of knowledge about the Hobby and it would be helpful to have some help from the users here during those moments. Thanks again!

Impressive video Keith! Keep up the great work!

[Peter_Spaeth]

I gave up on trying to make a pun using Cheevers.

Presented without comment.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...7&postcount=27

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I gave up on trying to make a pun using Cheevers.

Presented without comment.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...7&postcount=27

The way PSA gave out PSA 10s to one or 2 people and the rest didnt have the same opportunity, you would think all of those PSA 8 card owners may have a cause of action for their grading fees

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

The way PSA gave out PSA 10s to one or 2 people and the rest didnt have the same opportunity, you would think all of those PSA 8 card owners may have a cause of action for their grading fees

Huh

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

The way PSA gave out PSA 10s to one or 2 people and the rest didnt have the same opportunity, you would think all of those PSA 8 card owners may have a cause of action for their grading fees

Then again, they may not.

[swarmee]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

The way PSA gave out PSA 10s to one or 2 people and the rest didnt have the same opportunity, you would think all of those PSA 8 card owners may have a cause of action for their grading fees

Have you read the Eagle Eye Joe thread about BGS and Joe Clemons. I bet you'd have a better winnable case with that one.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Then again, they may not.

right besides a few things..most things in life are always uncertain. Can only go by the cards (trimmed or not) that are dealt

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

So here's a question for discussion -- what, if anything, are people doing differently in light of the scandal? How are you attempting to protect yourself against altered cards?

That's a good question. One thing I am thinking on is provenance. Most of my slabs are self-submitted cards and I am preserving the records of those submissions for future resale. Art is often tracked through its owners, so why not top cards? We already have provenance of specific finds on flips (e.g., Black Swamp, Lionel Carter, etc.). That should be more common. If I know the submitter as trustworthy, that should provide a great deal of confidence.

[Peter_Spaeth]

My own system (for PSA cards anyhow) makes me wonder if it's even worth it, it's such a PITA.

1. If offered by certain sellers, stop right there.
2. If serial number on PSA website shows first sale by certain sellers, stop right there.
3. Review scan thoroughly and if any doubt, pass.
4. If significant card, ask a couple of people whose opinions I value.
5. If still in the game at that point, check my spreadsheet of outed cards to see if in range suggesting it's likely from the same sub. If yes, probably stop or at least look into surrounding certs for anything suspicious.
6. Even if not in range of any outed card, if significant card, check surrounding certs for anything suspicious.

Ridiculous it's come to this.

[Johnny630]

I’ve been saying this for over a year now.....It’s much better for me to be card/slabbed card less then cash less. I could care less if I missed any upside....My personal opinion is everything is priced in and topped out if I miss it so be it I do not like this market’s current state one bit.....it’s much better to have cash on the sidelines then any slabs.

[Johnny630]

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showth...90614&page=243

I find REA To have the most integrity of all major/large auction houses.

Everyone is criticizing them with having graded altered cards....why isn’t anyone placing blame/criticizing PSA.


PSA hasn’t had to answer for anything .....it’s a double standard and total BS

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

Everyone is criticizing them with having graded altered cards....why isn’t anyone placing blame/criticizing PSA.

I think one or two people here have criticized PSA......

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I gave up on trying to make a pun using Cheevers.

Presented without comment.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...7&postcount=27

The body count just increases.....

I read through the entire thread and in addition to the Cheevers card, there was some VERY ENLIGHTENING BIT OF NEWS IF TRUE (maybe the bubble has finally burst and they see this as their only way of surviving as a business):

"A PSA representative told a collector at the Chicago show this weekend that they don't issue refunds for altered cards.

Last week, PSA returned a collector's proven trimmed card in the same PSA 10 slab that was sent in to receive compensation under their Grade Guarantee. They were told to seek a refund from the seller. The only problem is the card has quadrupled in value since they purchased it.

Good responses there when PSA doesn't even want to acknowledge or honor their Grade Guarantee."

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...2&postcount=59

I'd be curious if anyone else had heard about this stance allegedly held by PSA? Any comments regardless?

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showth...90614&page=243

I find REA To have the most integrity of all major/large auction houses.

Everyone is criticizing them with having graded altered cards....why isn’t anyone placing blame/criticizing PSA.


PSA hasn’t had to answer for anything .....it’s a double standard and total BS

REA is definitely one of the best out there...but it's at the point where there are so many altered cards in slabs that practically every big auction is apt to feature known altered cards in very auction from this point forward.

So aside from stating in the auction listing that card is suspected/shown to be altered so bid accordingly...I'm not sure what could be done.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by WhenItWasAHobby

The body count just increases.....

I read through the entire thread and in addition to the Cheevers card, there was some VERY ENLIGHTENING BIT OF NEWS IF TRUE (maybe the bubble has finally burst and they see this as their only way of surviving as a business):

"A PSA representative told a collector at the Chicago show this weekend that they don't issue refunds for altered cards.

Last week, PSA returned a collector's proven trimmed card in the same PSA 10 slab that was sent in to receive compensation under their Grade Guarantee. They were told to seek a refund from the seller. The only problem is the card has quadrupled in value since they purchased it.

Good responses there when PSA doesn't even want to acknowledge or honor their Grade Guarantee."

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...2&postcount=59

I'd be curious if anyone else had heard about this stance allegedly held by PSA? Any comments regardless?

Wow that’s a Bombshell If this is true. This is Dreadful Shameful.

It seems PSA only cares about the major altering business rather than collectors. This is disgraceful another depressing page turns sour.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by WhenItWasAHobby

The body count just increases.....

I read through the entire thread and in addition to the Cheevers card, there was some VERY ENLIGHTENING BIT OF NEWS IF TRUE (maybe the bubble has finally burst and they see this as their only way of surviving as a business):

"A PSA representative told a collector at the Chicago show this weekend that they don't issue refunds for altered cards.

Last week, PSA returned a collector's proven trimmed card in the same PSA 10 slab that was sent in to receive compensation under their Grade Guarantee. They were told to seek a refund from the seller. The only problem is the card has quadrupled in value since they purchased it.

Good responses there when PSA doesn't even want to acknowledge or honor their Grade Guarantee."

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...2&postcount=59

I'd be curious if anyone else had heard about this stance allegedly held by PSA? Any comments regardless?

Well we saw Sloan urge people to go to their sellers first, way back when this first broke. That said, I am aware of at least one instance where PSA paid someone whose cards had appreciated the difference between his purchase price (which PWCC refunded) and market value. This is the first I've heard of PSA allegedly expressly disclaiming their guarantee altogether. Too many levels of hearsay for me to take it as gospel.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

REA is definitely one of the best out there...but it's at the point where there are so many altered cards in slabs that practically every big auction is apt to feature known altered cards in very auction from this point forward.

So aside from stating in the auction listing that card is suspected/shown to be altered so bid accordingly...I'm not sure what could be done.

I don't believe that REA is turning a blind eye to or knowingly selling altered cards. I thought the criticism on the thread was a bit harsh/premature as Brian hasn't had a chance to respond yet.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

Wow that’s a Bombshell If this is true. This is Dreadful Shameful.

It seems PSA only cares about the major altering business rather than collectors. This is disgraceful another depressing page turns sour.

I have no doubt that PSA fights tooth and nail in individual cases to justify not paying people, but I have serious doubt that they have disclaimed the guarantee totally.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I don't believe that REA is turning a blind eye to or knowingly selling altered cards. I thought the criticism on the thread was a bit harsh/premature as Brian hasn't had a chance to respond yet.

i certainly wasn't suggesting that they would turn a blind eye.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Well we saw Sloan urge people to go to their sellers first, way back when this first broke. That said, I am aware of at least one instance where PSA paid someone whose cards had appreciated the difference between his purchase price (which PWCC refunded) and market value. This is the first I've heard of PSA allegedly expressly disclaiming their guarantee altogether. Too many levels of hearsay for me to take it as gospel.

Peter, can you envision a scenario where PWCC refunds the purchase price, PSA refuses to honor its guarantee, and PWCC ends up suing PSA?

That would be very interesting to watch. Because if PWCC is honoring its guarantees (by accepting returns) but PSA is not............

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I don't believe that REA is turning a blind eye to or knowingly selling altered cards. I thought the criticism on the thread was a bit harsh/premature as Brian hasn't had a chance to respond yet.

100% agree

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

i certainly wasn't suggesting that they would turn a blind eye.

I was talking about the Blowout thread, not you.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Mark17

Peter, can you envision a scenario where PWCC refunds the purchase price, PSA refuses to honor its guarantee, and PWCC ends up suing PSA?

That would be very interesting to watch. Because if PWCC is honoring its guarantees (by accepting returns) but PSA is not............

It would be the owner who would have the claim, not PWCC, if the market price is higher than the refunded purchase price. How is PWCC out anything? It chose to refund presumably because of its own role.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by Mark17

Peter, can you envision a scenario where PWCC refunds the purchase price, PSA refuses to honor its guarantee, and PWCC ends up suing PSA?

That would be very interesting to watch. Because if PWCC is honoring its guarantees (by accepting returns) but PSA is not............

I can’t speak for Peter but I can absolutely see your above scenario unfolding.

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

So here's a question for discussion -- what, if anything, are people doing differently in light of the scandal? How are you attempting to protect yourself against altered cards?

Buying raw, low grade. Doing my own research on provenance. Since May have stopped buying graded cards, except low grade and low value, unless there is collection provenance. Won’t collect based on TPG card grade again until someone builds a better mousetrap, including transparency and traceability.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

I can’t speak for Peter but I can absolutely see your above scenario unfolding.

To me the more likely scenario is PSA issuing a refund and then going after PWCC for violating the terms of service by submitting altered cards.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

To me the more likely scenario is PSA issuing a refund and then going after PWCC for violating the terms of service by submitting altered cards.

Could very well happen as well....there are gonna be some heated battles

[HRBAKER]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

My own system (for PSA cards anyhow) makes me wonder if it's even worth it, it's such a PITA.

1. If offered by certain sellers, stop right there.
2. If serial number on PSA website shows first sale by certain sellers, stop right there.
3. Review scan thoroughly and if any doubt, pass.
4. If significant card, ask a couple of people whose opinions I value.
5. If still in the game at that point, check my spreadsheet of outed cards to see if in range suggesting it's likely from the same sub. If yes, probably stop or at least look into surrounding certs for anything suspicious.
6. Even if not in range of any outed card, if significant card, check surrounding certs for anything suspicious.

Ridiculous it's come to this.

This is way too much work to qualify as a hobby for me. Hats off to you Peter.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

I can’t speak for Peter but I can absolutely see your above scenario unfolding.

Customer wants full restitution, PWCC says they will only refund the purchase price, customer goes after PWCC so PWCC, as the submitter of the card for grading, then goes after PSA.

It occurs to me that PWCC already has its lawyer, and I really wonder if something's cooking......

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by Mark17

Customer wants full restitution, PWCC says they will only refund the purchase price, customer goes after PWCC so PWCC, as the submitter of the card for grading, then goes after PSA.

It occurs to me that PWCC already has its lawyer, and I really wonder if something's cooking......

One thing always stays consistent Mark PSA is always an involved party/facilitator .....however they believe their business is Teflon.....so far nothing sticks. When it’s just an opinion and you’re supposed to submit in good faith they could argue in tort court all day and night.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

One thing always stays consistent Mark PSA is always an involved party/facilitator .....however they believe their business is Teflon.....so far nothing sticks. When it’s just an opinion and you’re supposed to submit in good faith they could argue in tort court all day and night.

Proving PWCC (or some other plaintiff, or in a class action) was not acting in good faith might be difficult. Intent is is tough to determine if there is no smoking gun.

Yes it is just an opinion but isn't there supposed to be a guarantee behind that opinion? And if alterations to a card can be proven (meaning, if it can be proven PSA gave cards high grades they did not merit) then would that teflon coating hold up?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Mark17

Customer wants full restitution, PWCC says they will only refund the purchase price, customer goes after PWCC so PWCC, as the submitter of the card for grading, then goes after PSA.

It occurs to me that PWCC already has its lawyer, and I really wonder if something's cooking......

Why is PWCC obligated to do more? it didn't guarantee its buyers a profit. It's making full restitution by refunding the purchase price. PSA is only obligated to pay market value because those are the terms of its guarantee.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by HRBAKER

This is way too much work to qualify as a hobby for me. Hats off to you Peter.

Yeah, it's edging closer to just being ruined. The lack of any meaningful response from the TPG's is probably going to be the final straw at some point.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Yeah, it's edging closer to just being ruined. The lack of any meaningful response from the TPG's is probably going to be the final straw at some point.

For us hard core collectors it is ruined. PSA doesn’t care one bit about it being destroyed for us. All they care about is free flow and easy money to be made by the trimming/altering organization many of which has been outed by blowout.

Unfortunately I see nothing changing people are addicted to the slab they either don’t know or don’t care....it’s all a crying shame. Grading was supposed to give a buyer Confidence and Peace of Mind when purchasing a expensive card....all it seems to do now is facilitate the bad actors.

What a disgrace

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

For us hard core collectors it is ruined. PSA doesn’t care one bit about it being destroyed for us. All they care about is free flow and easy money to be made by the trimming/altering organization many of which has been outed by blowout.

Unfortunately I see nothing changing people are addicted to the slab they either don’t know or don’t care....it’s all a crying shame. Grading was supposed to give a buyer Confidence and Peace of Mind when purchasing a expensive card....all it seems to do now is facilitate the bad actors.

What a disgrace

In hindsight, maybe the Harris Collection should have been more of a wakeup call than it was. That said, and maybe my perception is just skewed because it's easier for BODA to find more recent grades than older grades, but it seems the incompetence/corruption/whatever you want to call it has really accelerated in recent years.

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Well we saw Sloan urge people to go to their sellers first, way back when this first broke. That said, I am aware of at least one instance where PSA paid someone whose cards had appreciated the difference between his purchase price (which PWCC refunded) and market value. This is the first I've heard of PSA allegedly expressly disclaiming their guarantee altogether. Too many levels of hearsay for me to take it as gospel.

Now that you mention it, you're correct on the Sloan statement - which is appalling in my opinion, particularly since PSA is still advertising a guarantee on their website:

The PSA Guarantee of Grade and Authenticity
This policy is fundamental to PSA's concept of third-party grading. It ensures the accuracy of the grade assigned to any PSA-graded card as long as the card remains in its tamper-evident holder. PSA also guarantees that all cards submitted to it shall be graded in accordance with PSA grading standards and under the procedures of PSA.

https://www.psacard.com/about/whypsa/

and checking their Grading Standards, they still regard these modifications as ungradable:

PSA will not grade cards that bear evidence of trimming, re-coloring, restoration, or any other forms of tampering, or are of questionable authenticity.

https://www.psacard.com/resources/gr...andards/#cards

So legally, (although I'm not a lawyer) I can't see how they can weasel their way out of this and I'd recommend that all PSA collectors to print out the guarantee and Ungradable Card grading standards for their own protection for future disputes.