PWCC 10 Retraction Rule

[sedin26]

Originally Posted by Dewey

Looking at a card offered by gregmorriscards. Top bidder with 56 retractions last 6 months. Gross.

That is bad but what incentive is there to shill a gregmorriscards auction? As far as I'm aware, he doesn't consign and of the many, many auctions of his I watch, the vast majority seem to go for reasonable prices.......not infrequently lower than one might expect.

[bobbyw8469]

Originally Posted by sedin26

That is bad but what incentive is there to shill a gregmorriscards auction? As far as I'm aware, he doesn't consign and of the many, many auctions of his I watch, the vast majority seem to go for reasonable prices.......not infrequently lower than one might expect.

He doesn't consign, but I would hardly say his cards go for great steals. It easier to overlook cards that sell for less than $10 though, so that is why PWCC shilling gets all the eyeballs.

[Peter_Spaeth]

High bidder on psa 10 jordan rc has 25 retractions as of this post.

http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.d...p2471758.m4792

High bidder on the more expensive of the sp authentic bradys has 11.

http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.d...p2471758.m4792

[Bliggity]

Might as well add my story to the mix, although it's nothing earth-shattering. During the last prewar auction, there were two cards I planned to bid on, and both had bidders with 10+ retractions. I emailed PWCC while the auctions were pending, and received no response. After the auctions were over, I had the next-highest bid on one of the cards, with the serial-retractor winning. I contacted PWCC again to see if I was the winner under their policy. I received a response back from Betsy (or whoever it was) stating that PWCC would not cancel the bids

"unless it is clear that specific bid manipulation has occurred. In this case, my team confirmed there isn't clear evidence of bid manipulation, so we won't cancel the user ID's bids. "

Just more confirmation that serial-retractors are free to bid and win auctions, so long as PWCC determines that everything's Kosher.

I'm all for having anti-manipulation policies. But having a policy full of unwritten exceptions and caveats is worse than having no policy at all, because the policy creates an expectation on the part of the customer that goes unfulfilled. Better to just leave it to the eBay wild west and buyer beware.

[Leon]

They need to adopt our BST renege policy. First time and no one is out any money...chalk it up as a mistake. The second time requires a good explanation or they are gone. The third time.....buh bye.

Originally Posted by Bliggity

Might as well add my story to the mix, although it's nothing earth-shattering. During the last prewar auction, there were two cards I planned to bid on, and both had bidders with 10+ retractions. I emailed PWCC while the auctions were pending, and received no response. After the auctions were over, I had the next-highest bid on one of the cards, with the serial-retractor winning. I contacted PWCC again to see if I was the winner under their policy. I received a response back from Betsy (or whoever it was) stating that PWCC would not cancel the bids

"unless it is clear that specific bid manipulation has occurred. In this case, my team confirmed there isn't clear evidence of bid manipulation, so we won't cancel the user ID's bids. "

Just more confirmation that serial-retractors are free to bid and win auctions, so long as PWCC determines that everything's Kosher.

I'm all for having anti-manipulation policies. But having a policy full of unwritten exceptions and caveats is worse than having no policy at all, because the policy creates an expectation on the part of the customer that goes unfulfilled. Better to just leave it to the eBay wild west and buyer beware.

[Peter_Spaeth]

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=238568

"As of April 1, 2017 PWCC places blocks on any user ID that has more than 10 bid cancellations in the past six months. This reflects a reduction in the number of allowed bid cancellations from 25 to 10. As the program continues to mature and continues to affect bidder behavior, PWCC will continue to reduce the threshold."

Guess not.

[irv]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=238568

"As of April 1, 2017 PWCC places blocks on "ANY" user ID that has more than 10 bid cancellations in the past six months. This reflects a reduction in the number of allowed bid cancellations from 25 to 10. As the program continues to mature and continues to affect bidder behavior, PWCC will continue to reduce the threshold."

Guess not.

They must have forgot to add: "Unless you have bid, won and purchased anything from us in the past"

[Bliggity]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=238568

"As of April 1, 2017 PWCC places blocks on any user ID that has more than 10 bid cancellations in the past six months. This reflects a reduction in the number of allowed bid cancellations from 25 to 10. As the program continues to mature and continues to affect bidder behavior, PWCC will continue to reduce the threshold."

Guess not.

I will say that in Betsy's email to me, she did say that the bidder IDs would be blocked, but the bids themselves would not be cancelled absent evidence of manipulation with regard to that specific bid. So I suppose blocking the bidder from future bids but allowing the instant bids to stand technically comports with the "policy," but I think Betsy et al demonstrated in the last thread that they still won't enforce the black letter of the policy when it comes to high-rollers.

ETA: Upon further reflection, I certainly understand (as per the scenario in the last thread) why the 2nd bidder in line would want to retract a bid if a higher bidder above them has retracted, thus screwing the underbidder. However, that creates a cascade of retractions, and leads to uneven enforcement of the "policy." The much better way to enforce the policy would be to not only block the IDs, but also to cancel any bids placed by those IDs, even if those bids are deemed to be legitimate. That way, serial-retractors simply cannot participate in PWCC auctions, and underbidder bids will be restored to their proper levels. If the underbidder still has concerns about their max having been exposed, PWCC can cancel the bids on their end and allow the underbidder to re-bid (or not), thereby preventing the underbidder from having to retract on his/her own.

[Edwolf1963]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=238568

"As of April 1, 2017 PWCC places blocks on any user ID that has more than 10 bid cancellations in the past six months. This reflects a reduction in the number of allowed bid cancellations from 25 to 10. As the program continues to mature and continues to affect bidder behavior, PWCC will continue to reduce the threshold."

Guess not.

I guess the program hasn't matured yet?

.. Seriously, all the "complaining and bitching" (most of it anyway) wouldn't have come about had they not put out their policy and in the name of addressing fraudsters, shill bidding, shenanigans of the sort, etc. I don't see what possible purpose there could be to put out a strict, stated policy only to not uphold it?

[Bliggity]

Originally Posted by Leon

They need to adopt our BST renege policy. First time and no one is out any money...chalk it up as a mistake. The second time requires a good explanation or they are gone. The third time.....buh bye.

I agree that would be much better. Have a firm policy and hold to it, or don't have any policy at all. Having a policy that's not enforced hurts both the customer and the business reputation to a greater extent than having no policy, because the customer has unfulfilled expectations and the business loses credibility.

I try to teach my kid this same basic concept, and I try to impart it to my professional clients as well. There's no point in half-@$$ing something - you either do it, or you don't.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Bliggity

Might as well add my story to the mix, although it's nothing earth-shattering. During the last prewar auction, there were two cards I planned to bid on, and both had bidders with 10+ retractions. I emailed PWCC while the auctions were pending, and received no response. After the auctions were over, I had the next-highest bid on one of the cards, with the serial-retractor winning. I contacted PWCC again to see if I was the winner under their policy. I received a response back from Betsy (or whoever it was) stating that PWCC would not cancel the bids

"unless it is clear that specific bid manipulation has occurred. In this case, my team confirmed there isn't clear evidence of bid manipulation, so we won't cancel the user ID's bids. "

Just more confirmation that serial-retractors are free to bid and win auctions, so long as PWCC determines that everything's Kosher.

I'm all for having anti-manipulation policies. But having a policy full of unwritten exceptions and caveats is worse than having no policy at all, because the policy creates an expectation on the part of the customer that goes unfulfilled. Better to just leave it to the eBay wild west and buyer beware.

Is Betsy actually real? Or is she a figment of Brent's imagination designed to shield him from criticism for his fraud -- like his anti-shill bidding policy?

[Leon]

She is real. I spoke with her on the phone several months ago and expressed some big concerns.

Originally Posted by calvindog

Is Betsy actually real? Or is she a figment of Brent's imagination designed to shield him from criticism for his fraud -- like his anti-shill bidding policy?

[bobbyw8469]

All this complaining and bitching about PWCC.....As long as they get higher prices than smaller sellers auctioning the same items, the problem is going to get worse, not better. Mark my words.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

All this complaining and bitching about PWCC.....As long as they get higher prices than smaller sellers auctioning the same items, the problem is going to get worse, not better. Mark my words.

Yes, you are right. But as one of my favorite quotes goes, "All I have is a voice, to undo the folded lie."

[bbcardzman]

Here's another idea: You could ignore PWCC auctions just like people do for a battlefield auction.

[slidekellyslide]

I knew as soon as Betsy told us that they were instituting a 10 retraction rule that they would regret it. As long as ebay allows it to happen it's going to happen and there are going to be bidders that abuse it. How many auctions do they have running at any one time? There is no way one person can monitor that especially in the sports card hobby where the percentage of slimeballs is extremely high. I would think that there could be some third party software developed to catch bid retractions and automatically send warnings or block bidders, it can't be that difficult to implement. But just like Ebay, PWCC doesn't really want bid retractors blocked from bidding.