Curious about this T206 Cobb W/Lenox back....

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Posted By: Josh

How rare is the Cobb with this back?
http://cgi.ebay.com/1909-11-T206-Ty-Cobb-Red-Portrait-w-Lenox-back-GAI-1_W0QQitemZ120397174054QQihZ002QQcategoryZ57993QQs sPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
Thanks in advance...

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Posted By: peter ullman

It's probably about as rare as the cobb w/cobb back...but much less costly!

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Posted By: Dave Hornish

Why don't the creases show through on the back??

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Posted By: B O'Brien

I'm glad that I don't have to worry about paying for that one anymore.
I wonder who the nibbler bidder is? He/she always seems to show up when I sell a T206 that is fairly big value, for me. I don't mind him/her, but I wonder if other folks think it is a shill bidder when they look at the bidding pattern. I always kind of hope that he picks one off!
Take care,
Bob

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Posted By: Robert {Bigb13}

I have a nice cobb with a lenox back but have troble with pictures uploading

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Posted By: Kevin Saucier

Why don't the creases show through on the back??


Just my educated guess but I would say those are not creases but rather tears in the picture that were reattached. Personally I would not even consider taking a chance, thinking there is a risk the card may have been rebacked.


Kevin Saucier

------------------------------

www.AlteredCards.com - in-depth education on advanced card doctoring techniques & detection with detailed examples

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Posted By: Brian E.

I am the owner of the card and posted an answer to the question on Ebay. I am keenly aware of other Cobbs that have been rebacked. I purchased this card from another net54 member several years ago. At the time the card was raw and if I recall correctly, I bought it on the condition that the seller have the card graded by either SGC, PSA or GAI. If many of you recall, GAI was considerably more popular 2-3 years ago before they started having financial problems.

I also just finished using a loupe on the card. The two corner creases that clearly show on the front, do show through on the back but only ever so slightly.

Again, I have no concern this card is rebacked.

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Posted By: Robert {Bigb13}

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Posted By: mark s.

for robert...

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Posted By: mark s.

thank you for coming here to discuss your card.
i'm extremely curious and having difficulty understanding how creases on the front, which are SO severe that the paper is actually BROKEN, can be "only ever so slightly" evident on the reverse...
and why is the back SO bright... is that really an accurate image of the reverse (no stains or toning)?
do YOU think gai got this one right... does this card appear to be COMPLETELY unaltered to you?
would you be willing to guarantee the winner that it will receive a numeric grade from sgc and/or psa?
very interesting card... thanks again for your help.

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Posted By: Brian E.

The front and back of the card in the auction are from my scanner. I took a digital photograph and included it below. You will note there is mild staining or toning; tilting the card in the sun light you can see where the creases on the back are.

I do think GAI got it right and I do think the card is unaltered. I am 100% certain that the card is completely authentic. With that said, I can't guarentee that it will receive a numerical grade from PSA or SGC as what if they say the dark stain on the front is recolored, or an edge is trimmed. I couldn't find a gaurentee on GAI's website so I will not offer one.

Hands down the card is worth more in a SGC or PSA holder, so bid according.

Finally, I leave with two thoughts, first anyone is free to view the card in person at my residence in NE Michigan. Second, I used to be an Army officer and now I'm a police officer, I hope that counts for something on the integrity scorecard.

Brian E.

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Posted By: Adam

". . . and posted an answer to the question on Ebay."

I wrote the question. Thank you for answering it and, further, for posting your answer on eBay Brian. Not all sellers would have done that, so I think it says a lot.

I look forward to bidding on your card.

Regards,
Adam
(eBay user name: am76)

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Posted By: mark s.

brien e.-
my sincerest apologies if you felt my skepticism was directed at you personally. it was by no means so intended.
i, too, appreciate your willingness to participate & respond to these comments & inquiries.
it seems to speak volumes about your intent & sincerity!
thank you once again for your cooperation in addressing our concerns.
would like to offer my best wishes on this sale and all of your endeavors.

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Posted By: Brian E.

No offense taken

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Posted By: Jamie

I have record through VintageCardPrices.com that this card was sold twice, once on eBay on 6/6/06 for $2,600 and once at 19thCenturyOnly on 09/09/06 for 2,018.25, so that would poke a major hole in your story that you bought it raw from a Network54 member.

I love these folks who come on here saying they are police officers (Rodney King) and army officers (Abu Ghraib), as if that is going to somehow enhance their credibility if they wrap themselves in the American flag. Yeah, I've earned six medals and twelve purple hearts, so please bid on my baseball card

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Posted By: mark s.

jamie-
can you be certain that it was the same card?
perhaps seth n. can chime in to confirm or deny the 19th century transaction...

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Posted By: Jamie

No clue. It's just conjecture. Also, it's conceivable he sold it on ebay and then bought it back a few months later for cheaper. Who knows?

Though the fact that this card was the "first graded" would mean that this card must have been around during that time period. Meaning that if a second one exists, it would have been graded after this one and yet before 6/06/2006. I don't know the history of GAI or what their serial numbers would indicate about the card.

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Posted By: mark s.

well... researched the 19thcenturyonly.com website, and this IS, in fact, the same card sold in their auction that ended 9/8/06...
http://www.19thcenturyonly.com/site/bid/bidplace.asp?itemid=4023&getauctionid=61

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Posted By: Eric S.

there's something wrong with the card (edited to say it's good to get to the bottom of this for the seller and those wishing to bid and good luck. The benefits of drawing attention to a card here). It's like if you think your girlfriend is cheating on you.......she probably is. If you think that this has been rebacked..........it probably has. This is just simply not a card to buy on ebay (imo) and is likely another example of the flaws and inconsistency in grading. The seller has wisely baited the hook here, but Jamie's research would require definitive answers (answered). As a Marine I think it's unnecessary to use your service or "god" as many do to try and sell cards (I stick to this statement). I've served in two combat theaters and outside of making me a little crazy and beat up I can't imagine how it's supposed to help me sell pre-war cards. You want credibility in this trade, earn it by selling authentic cards at appropriate pricing with fast shipping. That's all anyone cares about. There was a time when service did add some credibility to character and being a free society you have the right to express yourself, but comparing Police to those indicted in the "Rodney King" case or military individuals to the handful of corrupt Soldiers at Abu is childish. This is a hobby, nobody's dying here. You don't like it, don't buy it.

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Posted By: Dave F

Hmm, that card sold in Seth's auction 1-25-09....I don't know about 2006, but 1-25-09 was two months ago.

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Posted By: Brian E.

I have been a member on this board since probably I'm guessing 2003 or 2004. My best guess is that I purchased this card 2 or 3 years ago, and it was definitely purchased from a board member. I have scans of when it was raw, he had it graded and then I purchased it. How he came into possession of it, I don't know.

Brian E.

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Posted By: Shawn

Dave F,

Something is not right about the 19centuryonly site... If you click on the (Bid History) tab that will tell you the actual bid date...

AMOUNT DATE PLACED AUTOBID BIDDER
$1,755.00 9/8/2006 5:01:09 PM ID Private
$1,450.00 9/7/2006 9:28:34 PM ID Private
$1,318.00 9/7/2006 9:28:34 PM ID Private
$1,198.00 9/7/2006 12:12:18 AM ID Private
$1,089.00 8/14/2006 10:24:42 AM ID Private
$990.00 8/11/2006 3:34:16 PM ID Private
$900.00 8/11/2006 11:54:09 AM ID Private

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Posted By: Tim

The card in the 19thcenturyonly auction was sold on 9/8/2006 in the same holder, with the same cert# as the one being offered now.

Brian says: I purchased this card from another net54 member several years ago. At the time the card was raw and if I recall correctly, I bought it on the condition that the seller have the card graded by either SGC, PSA or GAI.

I like to give the benefit of the doubt but something just doesn't seem right with the timeline and details being given.

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Posted By: Brian E.

I'll see what I can find in my financial records. I do have scans of the card when it was ungraded on my computer and it appears that I saved those scans (received them) in September 2005.

I will tell you that I did not purchase the card raw and have it graded. I have owned the card for at least 2 years. I don't think I bought it at auction from 19C but I do have an account with them and have won at least one or two items from them in the past.

I have something like 25 Cobb cards and just perhaps the details of the different transactions are getting muddied here.

I remember paying around 2K for the card, I honestly think I bought it direct from a board member and if that's the case it was obviously post the 19C auction. There is a decent chance that I bought it at auction from 19C.

I'll see what I can find. Regardless, the origin of how I came in possession of it, either private purchase from a board member already slabbed by GAI or from 19C already slabbed by GAI, what does it matter? I have had the card for 2 or 3 years, it is authentic and it is up for auction. Bid or don't bid...

Brian E.

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Posted By: Dan Koteles

I think that card is good. Iam sure STeve Verkman owned it about 10 yrs ago, it sold in his auction for 650.00....those were the days my friend , I thought they'd never end , da da da da , da da da da da de, da da da da da da, da da da da da da , da da da da oh yes, "those were the days" !

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Posted By: Brian Engelhard

I can't find my 2006 check records right now. I logged into the 19C website and can't access my old invoices.

Here is what I know and don't know:

1) I can't say definetly whether I purchased the card from a board member or from 19C. I did received ungraded pics of the card in 2005 that I had saved on my computer, those are shown below. I do have a 19C account but I don't recall winning anything from them in the last couple years but I could be wrong. That happens when you've had purchases at REA, Mastro, 19C, Heritage, etc...

2) I did not have the card graded by GAI, I was not in possession of the card ever when it was raw.

3) I have had the card for at least 2 years but not much longer than that. I can say that because I did some researching on some of my old Net54 posts and as of Dec 2005, a Cobb Lenox was still on my want list.

4) I'm completely confident that card is authentic.

5) Finally, if you have any concerns I'm not who I say I am, do a little googling on my name. I have been a contributing member here since 2003-2004. My ebay history goes back to 2000.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Now Brian, we'd appreciate if you would confirm that you did not beat Rodney King or abuse innocent Iraqi criminals.

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Posted By: Dave F

Good enough to me Brian, I don't think you have to explain yourself anymore. I was just wondering because when I clicked on the 19th century link the date showed the card sold this January but Shawn corrected me on that.

If you've had the card two years and it's in a holder...good enough to me...if anybody has a problem with it, don't bid.

Good luck with the sale.

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Posted By: Brian E.

I was probably still in High School during the Rodney King incident. As for Iraq, I was there with First Infantry Division in 2004-2005, I'm proud of my Bronze Star but wouldn't go back for all the money in world.

I'm in the process of down sizing my Cobb collection, I may make a big purchase in the future but I'm also using it to pay for a wedding next month. In the near future you'll probably see much of my Cobb collection offered including a Carolina Brights, E94, E103, American Beauty, Piedmont F42, T216, etc...

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Posted By: dan mckee

but nothing like the Cobb back, I have owned 3 Lenox Cobb's and I think Elkins has me beat in that department, Dan.

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Posted By: Brian E.

I'm thinking I'll hang on to the Broadleaf 460 though

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Posted By: Jim VB

Brian,

There is a WTB post on the BST for multiple Cobb backs.

http://www.network54.com/Forum/376260/thread/1238297259/last-1238426187/WTB-+T206+Cobb+Red

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Posted By: Brian E.

I saw that...I weighed using the BST, consignment to an auction house or using Ebay. All things considered, Ebay works best for me.

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Posted By: Jamie

Sorry if my last post was inflammatory. I do respect our soldiers and police officers and what they have done for this country.

But a little warning about buying GAI cards in general: their business is bankrupt. That inherently makes their opinion obsolete. Meaning that the card should really be valued as if it is raw.

I am no expert in authenticating raw cards and despite the experience of many on this board, I imagine that few folks here actually are. If you can do it, then good luck to you. It's a shame that this card wasn't crossed over to a PSA holder before being sold.

Which, since his previous story is untrue, begs the question, what was the motive behind the story? Perhaps it was to demonstrate that the card was not sent to GAI merely because it was previously rejected by PSA. Which leads me to believe that the card very well may have been rejected by PSA as inauthentic.

That is speculative. Clearly, it is a very compelling card if authentic. But since no one really knows the history of the card, the seller is unclear on it, and the company who graded it is bankrupt, I'm inclined not to bid on the card (yes, I had been looking at it before this thread began).

Good luck to all.

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

The Red portrait Ty Cobb was American Lithographic's "signature picture"....it was printed on 24 different
T206 T-backs. And, at least another 6 T-card issues.

Here is a list of the T206 backs in order of their scarcity....others might differ with this ranking....
and, that's fine.









The scarcest..........

BROAD LEAF 460
Black LENOX
DRUM
Red HINDU
UZIT
SOVEREIGN 460
PIEDMONT 460 Fac. 42
CAROLINA BRIGHTS

Next scarcest group....

AMERICAN BEAUTY 350 (frame)
CYCLE 460
EL PRINCIPE de GALES
SOVEREIGN 350
CYCLE 350
SWEET CAP 460 Fac 25
SWEET CAP 460 Fac 42
SWEET CAP 460 Fac 42 ovpt

Moderately tough...........

TOLSTOI
OLD MILL
PIEDMONT 460 Fac 25
SWEET CAP 460 Fac 30

Most available..........

PIEDMONT 350 Fac 25
SWEET CAP 350 Fac 25
SWEET CAP 350 Fac 30
POLAR BEAR


And, don't forget the Ty Cobb back, 1910 COUPON, T213-2, T213-3, T214 and T215


TED Z

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Posted By: leon

When did you start lumping T213-2, T213-3, T214 and T215 into the T206 group? If you are going to go there you might as well throw in T216's too. While we are at it the D303's and some others come to mind with the same front images....best regards

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Posted By: Richard

Leon - I think Ted is just talking about the issues with the same T206 Red Portrait Cobb front image. The T216 and D303 do not have this image.

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

I do believe I stated that that there are 24 different T206 backs and I listed them.

Furthermore, I noted the 6 additional T-card sets that American Litho. pictured their Red Cobb in.

Incidently, T216's are not an American Litho. product....the T216's printing firm was the same that
printed the American Caramel cards.

But, I know you know all this....just reviewing it for those here who don't....


T-Rex TED

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Posted By: Jon Canfield

Jamie, I totally disagree with your statement concerning GAI that "their business is bankrupt. That inherently makes their opinion obsolete."

Just because a company has gone bankrupt does not mean its skills in authentication or grading are flawed. Rather, it means they had a poor business model, too much competition, etc. Regardless if the company (whether it be GAI, SGC, PSA, etc) is bankrupt or not, each card, autograph or other piece of memorabilia should be judged on its merits. PSA is not bankrupt right now, yet it had the last rebacked Cobb T-206 in itz holder. SGC is not bankrupt right now, and it graded a doctored Doyle.


======================================
For the premier online souce of information on baseball-related cigarette packs, visit http://www.baseballandtobacco.com

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Posted By: Brian Weisner

Hi Guys,
The card is legit and so is Brian.... I was offered the card in 2004 and again in 2005 and passed both times. Wish I hadn't....

Be well Brian

PS Here's a picture of the card from 2005 in a group....


[IMG][/IMG]

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Posted By: robert a

"I am no expert in authenticating raw cards and despite the experience of many on this board, I imagine that few folks here actually are. If you can do it, then good luck to you. It's a shame that this card wasn't crossed over to a PSA holder before being sold. "

Why do I keep hearing this? If you can't tell if the cards that you're buying are authentic, then that's a big problem. Go back to the drawing board. And if you're depending on PSA, then we'll see you on this board later in one of these threads with a fake card. Now I see why you're so doubtful that this card is real.

By the way, most people I know here have enough experience to buy raw cards.

And...we all know that GAI sucks.

Rob

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Posted By: dennis

ok, so, if that card is in a psa holder ,there is no debate here at all about its authenticty.......now that is a joke,right?

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Posted By: Robert {Bigb13}

What do you guys think mine would fetch at auction? Rob

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Posted By: Bobby Binder

I sold Brian his Carolina Brights Cobb card a few years ago and it was a flawless transaction.

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Posted By: Cat

Geez, give this guy a break. But, I do have one sincere question for you if you wouldn't mind anwering it:

Are you now, or have you ever been, a member of the communist party?

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Posted By: Jamie

If the card is legit then great!

As for the PSA flap, even the seller himself has stated that the card would be more valuable in a PSA/SGC holder, I do not think I am alone on this. There is a reason for that. I know we have a lot of PSA haters on this board, but I still trust them the most. Thanks.

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Posted By: Jamie

And yes, I have been a member of the Communist Party. See links below:

https://hampedia.org/wiki/Red_Scare_Ultimate_Frisbee

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

The Surgeon General has declared that "reading this thread is hazardous to your sanity".

First, recall that there have been many re-backed (or altered) cards that have been GRADED by both PSA
and SGC these past 10 years.
Here are four of the more notable examples that come to mind......

PSA graded fakes......
----
T206 Cobb (bat off) with a Piedmont 150 back....impossible F/B combo

T206 Doyle error card with POLAR BEAR back......Doyle error card exists ONLY with the PIEDMONT 350 back


SGC graded fakes......
----
T206 Matty (portrait) with Red HINDU back........impossible F/B combo

T206 Doyle error card with caption.."Nat'l" added on the common Joe Doyle card


So, "targeting" this Cobb/LENOX card because it was GAI graded is really laughable. I have no favorites in
Grading game. As most of you know, I'm not that keen on Graded cards, 99% of my collection is in plastic
sheets in binders. However, some of the posts here regarding this Cobb card are ridiculous.

Now, I don't know BRIAN E......but, I do know BRIAN W, and he has provided scans and the history of this
Cobb card. Furthermore, BRIAN W says...."The card is legit and so is Brian (E)".

That's good enough for me and should be for all who have posted on this thread.....case is closed.....this
card is an Authentic T206 Cobb with a rare LENOX back ! !

Some of the posts on this thread illustrate the utter insanity of trying to compare various Grading Company's.
Now, let's get back to some meaningful discussions on Vintage BB cards on this forum.


TED Z

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Posted By: dan mckee

Ted, You feel the Lenox Cobb is tougher than the Drum and red hindu? Dan

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

After the BL 460 and the DRUM....the 6 other back's difficulty is "6 of 1, or 1/2 a dozen of another".

I re-ordered them for your benefit....ole buddy

The scarcest........

BROAD LEAF 460
DRUM


Next scarcest........

Black LENOX
UZIT
Red HINDU
SOVEREIGN 460
PIEDMONT 460 Fac. 42
CAROLINA BRIGHTS


TED Z