T206 GAI8 pack... they are getting worst now.???

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Posted By: eeplay 

Oh my god... GAI is like AAA or NASA now.
They start grading anything and give out misleading label.

The tax stamp on that Sweet Caporal pack is obviously not from 1909-1911 period. Should be around late 20's til 40's


http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1972414719

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Posted By: Dan Mathewson

...and it's already up to over $1,500.00. Holy moley.

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Posted By: Keith O'Leary

In the current Mastro catalog, I noticed a graded T3 Cobb. Was this a special favor? I was unable to find anything specific on their web site as to which cards they grade and which they do not.

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Posted By: Todd (nolemmings)

Could you enlighten me as to how you can tell the date of the tax stamp, or at least why it is not as stated by GAI? I simply have no idea what to look for.

What guaranty if any does GAI make if it is found to have mislabeled?

Seller may have some exposure, particularly if the goof is obvious up close. If he knew or should have known that the label was in error, he can't hide behind it.

Truly sad situation, as this pack is receiving alot of attention, and if the pack is not as advertised, the buyer will be, shall we say, somewhat disappointed.
Regards..............Todd

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Posted By: leon

may very well have a 1909 stamp but it can not be seen (at least I can't see it from the scan). Assuming it does have an '09 stamp one must remember that the stamp is NOT what is most important in the dating of packs. The overstamp IS the the most important thing. Most times the blue stamp you see will have a more specific ink stamp on top of it...which would be the date of issue....some stamps were used for 5 or more years. This pack does look to be the correct period though. I am definitely NOT an expert but have dabbled a little....hope this helps....and my amateur guess would be about 1-200 of having a baseball card IF it is the correct year..regards all

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Posted By: eeplay

I emailed the seller, he said there are some "red ink" dots on the tax stamp. And the pack has wax paper wrapped around it. This kind of packs are those so-called "t206" packs can be easily found on ebay once a while and usually sold at $200-$300. In fact, their actual value may be only $40 to $50 since they are NOT "t206" packs

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Posted By: David

'How to Date a Cigarette Pack'

http://cycleback.com/packdate.html

Of extra note is that, when too many stamps were bought by the ciagarette manufacturer for sealing, some could be left over and used for future use. Thus, a '1909' tax stamp could be used on a later date pack.

Leon is correct that the red overprinting is very important. When it is underneath the wax-like paper it is very difficult to impossible to read-- and I would beleive the seller if he/she claims that he cannot read it. In many cases, the only way to read the red overprinting is to remove the wax paper, which may or may not be desirable.

Casually, the Sweet Caporal packs from 1909 to at least the early 1920s have virually the same graphics style.

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Posted By: David

I don't wish to jump on the anti-GAI bandwagon, but I don't understand how a label of 1909-11 could be given to a cigarette pack. As the charts in the link illustrate, that 3 year period does not match with the periods the tax stamps were printed and issued. My assumption, and probably the assumption of other here, is that dates on the label matching the dates of a famous card set are not coincidental.

If a buyer is serious about bidding on the pack, he should ask the seller what the date on the stamp is, or as for an image of the entire stamp. Only the '1909' and '1910' could conceivably be a true 'T206' pack. Even then, these printed dates only narrow the possible windown of time, and do not place a pack sqarely within the T206 period ... As Leon already noted, only the red overprinting can give a definitive date.

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Posted By: Brian Weisner

David & Leon are both correct, the 1909 tax stamp was used until 1917, so it's almost impossible to date a pack without a production stamp from the factory. These production overstamps do exist, but are fairly rare. I also emailed the seller and found out that the pack was produced in Factory 593 District of Maryland, which means no T206 is inside. I have seen alot of Sweet Cap packs produced in Maryland on Ebay, most are from a full case of 1922 packs which was found a few years ago, but there was also a small find of 1909-1917 Maryland packs which were uncovered in the early 90's. I can't believe GAI is now grading Tobacco packs, I guess it's alright as long as they don't tie it to the T206's. be well brian

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Posted By: David

One last thing. I understand potential bidders worries about unopened wax packs, and see how GAI offering this holdering service is useful and perhaps even needed in this hobby.

Having said that, I wish to address potential Sweet Caporal pack tampering issues. This wax paper that covers some packs is usually both tightly sealed and VERY delicate. I don't see how someone could remove this paper and put it back on without making it look like crap.

Secondly, the tax stamp is placed on the box underneath the wax paper. So, if you should choose to remove the wax paper, the pack is still sealed.

I once had a large number of cigarette packs, including Sweet Caporal packs, that had the wax wrapping. On some I removed the wax, simply because the colors/graphics underneath were brighter without the muting paper. I sold sealed packs with and without wax paper, and the price was not effected one way or the other. However, I knew these packs were Post-T206 and clearly stated that to potential bidders and buyers. So they were buying them as pretty display pieces, not find a Honus Wagner.

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Posted By: MW

It should be noted that GAI does not write on the holder that this is a T206 cigarette pack. They do, however, designate the time period as 1909-11. I agree with David that this is misleading to vintage collectors. Also, I'm not sure the seller's title is appropriate since it includes the designation "T206." How can he or she know this without a description of the factory overprinting? And why is THIS information not in the description?

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Posted By: MW

For the location, the Seller has written the following:

"Guaranteed Unopened T206 Sweet Caporal Pack!"

There you have it folks. GAI erroneously supplies the 1909-11 date and the seller, with a bit of wishful thinking, unwittingly supplies the rest.

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Posted By: mikeatmack

I was under the impression the Class "A" tax stamp
was used in the 1920's. Most packs I have seen dated
to the 1910 period have the Dewitt Clinton Tax stamp
with a Series of 1909 or a Series of 1910, with the
1910 series used until 1916. I have heard some packs
do have an overdate printed on the stamp but I have
not seen any myself.

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Posted By: warshawlaw

of buying the holder and not the item

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Posted By: David

The only significant issue is how much to pay for the pack. A nice circa 1920 unopened Sweet Caporal pack is probably worth in the $40 range (+ or -). If a biddder really wanted it and was willing to pay $100, that's unresonable.

A nice unopened Sweet Caporal Pack with a 1909 stamp but without the correct factory could resonable sell for well more than $100-- in part, because of its vintage and because it might hold different kinds of cards inside.

A nice unopened Sweet Caporal Pack with a 1909 stamp and with a T206 factory designation would resonable sell for $1,500 to $2000+.

So it's not a case where a later pack is wortheless, it's just worth less.

This case also illustrates, why I laugh at companies that use the word 'Authenticators' in their name. It is okay to call oneself 'top expert' or 'judger of authenticity' or 'examiner who will give his best and educated opinion.' But authenticator is an absolute word, like omniscient and omnipotent. Ala, 'The Ancient Greek God, Thor the Authenticator. People, bring anything to Thor and he will identify it.' To me, I have doubts right away about companies that call themselves 'Authenticators.' It's obvioiusly a advertising ploy, but, to me, it reflects badly upon their judgment.

If you were are Authenticator, like Thor, you wouldn't need buy backs, diclaimers and you'd never have to say "In my best opinion...." What you would proclaim would be right for eterninty, and there would no need for that kind of paperwork and sillines.

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Posted By: jay behrens

thinks it's fake, he'll smash it with his mighty hammer Majilnor.

Jay