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#1
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1923 Ruth Exhibit - Lipset Auction
Posted By: Josh K.
In Lew's latest auction he is selling what he has dated a 1923 Babe Ruth Exhibit card. He further states that the card is identical in all respects to the 1921 Exhibit except that the 1923 exhibit has a border. Finally Lew states that there are only 3 (I believe) known copies of this particular exhibit card. I have asked Lew about this as both the standard catalog and old cardboard note that 1921 exhibits come both with and without a border. Lew is essentially claiming that the 1921 ruth did not come with a border even if others did. He has not provided (despite my requests) any information to support his belief. |
#2
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1923 Ruth Exhibit - Lipset Auction
Posted By: warshawlaw
That is a really interesting question. No one really knows since no one has an uncut sheet, but I tend to believe that the Ruth in question is a 1921 issue that was short-printed in the bordered variety: |
#3
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1923 Ruth Exhibit - Lipset Auction
Posted By: RayB
Warshaw - I would tend to concur. Second hand chat on this subject has produced indicators to me that your theories about the existance of two Ruth's with a 21' issue date make sense. |
#4
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1923 Ruth Exhibit - Lipset Auction
Posted By: Josh K.
Here is the one from the auction: |
#5
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1923 Ruth Exhibit - Lipset Auction
Posted By: Hal Lewis
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#6
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1923 Ruth Exhibit - Lipset Auction
Posted By: warshawlaw
OK, now we are getting somewhere. The image with borders shows less of the picture than the one without, meaning that the borders were imposed over the image rather than around it before the new plate was created. The next question is whether the two cards were made from the same photo or from two separate prints of the same image. I downloaded both photos and superimposed one over the other using photo editing software. I was particularly concerned with lining up the legends because they are handwritten. If a second picture was used, there is no way that the legends will correspond precisely. What I found was that the legends match exactly. This tells me that the same hand-annotated photo was used to create both versions of the card. ESCO apparently did go back and revise the original photo by adding a border to it. When this was done is what we do not know, but 1923 is certainly a stronger possibility than I thought earlier. I would still point out that a revision of the Ruth for 1923 would not be consonant with the boxing card experience. My boxing research proves that the company issued a set of 64 cards of boxers and wrestlers in 1921, issued a supplemental set in 1922, then reissued some of the 1921s with some new cards in 1923 (remember, all boxing cards are actually copyrighted and dated so there is no ambiguity as to when they were issued). There are two Jack Dempseys for 1923 but the second card is a new pose. I have yet to see ESCO crop or border a 1921 boxing card to create a 1923, but I will keep looking. Ruth is Ruth, though, and who knows what marketing decision was made or when. |
#7
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1923 Ruth Exhibit - Lipset Auction
Posted By: Wesley
We have actually seen quite a few the White Border Exhibits Babe Ruths in the past twelve months. In addition to the ones auctioned in the Lipset auction, there have been a few others for sale recently: |
#8
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1923 Ruth Exhibit - Lipset Auction
Posted By: Richard
In addition to the 4 that Wesley points out, I seem to also recall a PSA 3 mk that sold on ebay as well in the 1000-1200 area. If around 5 of them have been on the market in the last 12 months, I would say that there are quite a few out there. I am sure that they are rare for 1921 Exhibit standards, but how many other Ruth exhibits have been made available in the same timeframe? |
#9
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1923 Ruth Exhibit - Lipset Auction
Posted By: warshawlaw
I do not think that the bordered card is as rare as it is made out to be. I have seen more of them than of any single 1928 PCL Exhibit. |
#10
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1923 Ruth Exhibit - Lipset Auction
Posted By: fkw
Over the last few years Ive only seen about 4-5 (different) of the Ruth w/borders (I think some are the same cards being sold over and over). I have seen dozens of the normal borderless cards (at least 1-3 a month on eBay). I didnt even know the border one existed until about 5 years ago. Everytime I see a 1921 Ruth I look for the borders, and very few have it. I agree with Adam though, the individual PCL cards are far scarcer, I see maybe 5 a year total on eBay. And if your looking for a specific PCL player it may take years. |
#11
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1923 Ruth Exhibit - Lipset Auction
Posted By: Jim Chanin
You are talking about the card that I have up for auction with Lew Lipset. |
#12
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1923 Ruth Exhibit - Lipset Auction
Posted By: Josh K.
Nobody is trying to hurt your auction. The problem is that there is no proof that the Ruth card is from 1923 because it looks identical to a 1921 exhibit - in other words, if there is no way to distinguish the two years, how do you know your's is from 1923? |
#13
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1923 Ruth Exhibit - Lipset Auction
Posted By: Hal Lewis
Jim Chanin: |
#14
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1923 Ruth Exhibit - Lipset Auction
Posted By: Richard
Jim - |
#15
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1923 Ruth Exhibit - Lipset Auction
Posted By: warshawlaw
No one here has an agenda. The card is priced highly enough in the auction that no one here is trying to lowball it to snag it on the cheap. The questions raised here have been raised by other long-time Exhibit collectors who do not believe that the card is conclusively a 1923 issue. I will not rehash the points already discussed. With respect to certain of your comments, I would suggest the following: |
#16
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1923 Ruth Exhibit - Lipset Auction
Posted By: Jim Chanin
In answer to one question, I do not know any numbering system on any of the Ruth exhibit cards including this one. The number (I think it was #46) is a numerical listing by the book that the number appears in--the cards are not numbered. |
#17
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1923 Ruth Exhibit - Lipset Auction
Posted By: Josh K.
Unfortunately Jim, you have not answered the basic question on everyone's mind - what makes you so sure that a Ruth card with a border is from 1923 rather than 1921. I will repeat what I said earlier - according to Lemke 1921 exhibits are found both WITH AND WITHOUT A BORDER. |
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