T206 Print Groups-A Quick Overview

[t206fix]

Pat - what are the print errors in the above groupings of cards?

thx

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by t206fix

Pat - what are the print errors in the above groupings of cards?

thx

They're not really errors Tony, they all have recurring print defects.

The Fred Clarke that I posted has a Red spot under the G on his uniform that is found on three different backs, here is an example of each back that it is found on.

PD350-2.jpg

SC350-30-1.jpg

Sov350-1.jpg

[chriskim]

I wonder there's any explanation/theory of Ted's Lungren missing colors error that has the P150 back. That's quite cool looking.

Originally Posted by tedzan

Hi Drew......long time, no see ?

Carl Lungren's Major League career ended April 23, 1909. Therefore, his Cubs card was initially printed with the PIEDMONT 150 back.....since American
Lithographic printed the PIEDMONT backs first.

Furthermore, they included Lundgren (Cubs) when they started printing the PIEDMONT 350 backs. At the same time they also printed the EPDG backs
on certain cards. Both these two backs are quite rare on this Lundgren card.





Best regards,

TED Z

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by chriskim

I wonder there's any explanation/theory of Ted's Lungren missing colors error that has the P150 back. That's quite cool looking.

Hi Chris

In the 6-color process that American Litho used to print the fronts of these cards, Red was usually the last ink pass. However, in the printing of this Lundgren (Cubs),
Blue must have been the last ink pass (which was omitted).

I was pleasantly surprised when I acquired a 255-card T206 collection 12 years ago to find this Lundgren (missing blue ink) in it.

Originally Posted by tedzan

The Carl Lundgren (Cubs) cards is a favorite of mine for several reasons. Especially, since it was the first T206 subject of which
I completed its back Run (only 3 cards needed). I included the color-error (missing blue ink) of Lundgren to accent this display.




.

TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by chriskim

I wonder there's any explanation/theory of Ted's Lungren missing colors error that has the P150 back. That's quite cool looking.

Scrap Piedmont 150 sheet. These have been called Yellow/Brown but they also have one of the Red passes on them. The Bradley has a Yellow shift that's similar to Ted's Lundgren.

Bradley.jpg

Jennings.jpg

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Hi Chris

The 6-color process that American Litho used to print the fronts of these cards, Red was the last ink pass. However, since Lundgren (Cubs) has no Red color, Blue was the last ink pass.

I was pleasantly surprised when I acquired a 255-card T206 collection 12 years ago to find this Lundgren (missing blue ink) in it.





TED Z

T206 Reference
.

I'm not sure what the order of all the color passes were but there were more than six and one of the Red passes was before the end.

Downey.jpg

[chriskim]

It could be just me.... I can't see/load any pics Pat R. posts on his messages.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by chriskim

It could be just me.... I can't see/load any pics Pat R. posts on his messages.

PM sent Chris. Does this image show up for you?

[IMG][/IMG]

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Pat R

As Tim pointed out the 150 only subjects were printed with other print group 1 subjects they were just discontinued early for reasons we don't know.
We also now know from the plate scratch sheets that all twelve of them weren't on the same sheet and they were also on sheets with other subjects from print group 1.

My belief is that there will be differences between the non 150 only subjects on those sheets and the same subject from different 150 sheets.

I've done some work on stuff like that, but a lack of quality scans makes it difficult. At least there's a couple sources for excellent scans, LOC and the MET. Although the met won't give access to good scans for HOFers.

[steve B]

On most subjects it's 8 colors. Blue and light blue were usually paired, as were pink and red.

Here's a corner of Batch showing the blue and light blue. Also not how the light blue has a vertical spike on the corner on one but not the other. A small difference that most likely indicates two different positions on the same sheet but may indicate a very minor change to the master. Both are the same common back.

[chriskim]

Hi Pat,

yes! this one shows up ok!

Originally Posted by Pat R

PM sent Chris. Does this image show up for you?

[IMG][/IMG]

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by steve B

My belief is that there will be differences between the non 150 only subjects on those sheets and the same subject from different 150 sheets.

I've done some work on stuff like that, but a lack of quality scans makes it difficult. At least there's a couple sources for excellent scans, LOC and the MET. Although the met won't give access to good scans for HOFers.

Steve, I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. Are you saying there are differences in the non 150 only subjects but there are no differences in the 150 only subjects? If so can you post examples of the differences that you're talking about.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Pat R

Steve, I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. Are you saying there are differences in the non 150 only subjects but there are no differences in the 150 only subjects? If so can you post examples of the differences that you're talking about.

That's pretty close.
It's one thing to feel sure something exists, and another entirely to prove it exists.
A lack of excellent scans hinders the search, as I believe most differences will be very minor.

I know for sure that at least Tinker fielding had three different identifiable printings within the 150 series.
The couple with Chicago visible on the uniform
The ones with Chicago mostly removed
And ones where it's not there at all.

Conroy has differences that are divided by 150/350, And also comes at least 3 different ways. Putting three good scans near each other makes it like one of those "spot the differences " puzzles.


The upper one has partial stripes and no gray shading at the back of the cap
The middle one has strong stripes and gray shading
The last has no stripes and does have gray shading.

There are plenty of other differences

The lack of stripes is usually a 350 thing, but the middle one has both stripes and the shading of the no stripes.
Except for that shading I'd think the middle one was earliest, as the proof has solid lines between the head/back and the background.

I did a couple experiments at organizing the visuals for a couple things and for T206 I'm going to have to learn database stuff.
Even finding good scans is slow going, since the places like LOC don't organize their cards the way any of us would, making a search a bit painful.

[steve B]

I think it's possible the 150 only subjects were only printed once, maybe twice.
If they were only printed once, they shouldn't have differences. If twice they may have differences.

[chriskim]

Originally Posted by steve B

Conroy has differences that are divided by 150/350, And also comes at least 3 different ways. Putting three good scans near each other makes it like one of those "spot the differences " puzzles.


The upper one has partial stripes and no gray shading at the back of the cap
The middle one has strong stripes and gray shading
The last has no stripes and does have gray shading.

Is it just me? I don't see any pics....

[tiger8mush]

Originally Posted by chriskim

Is it just me? I don't see any pics....

yeah, i see pics

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by steve B

That's pretty close.
It's one thing to feel sure something exists, and another entirely to prove it exists.
A lack of excellent scans hinders the search, as I believe most differences will be very minor.

I know for sure that at least Tinker fielding had three different identifiable printings within the 150 series.
The couple with Chicago visible on the uniform
The ones with Chicago mostly removed
And ones where it's not there at all.

Conroy has differences that are divided by 150/350, And also comes at least 3 different ways. Putting three good scans near each other makes it like one of those "spot the differences " puzzles.


The upper one has partial stripes and no gray shading at the back of the cap
The middle one has strong stripes and gray shading
The last has no stripes and does have gray shading.

There are plenty of other differences

The lack of stripes is usually a 350 thing, but the middle one has both stripes and the shading of the no stripes.
Except for that shading I'd think the middle one was earliest, as the proof has solid lines between the head/back and the background.

I did a couple experiments at organizing the visuals for a couple things and for T206 I'm going to have to learn database stuff.
Even finding good scans is slow going, since the places like LOC don't organize their cards the way any of us would, making a search a bit painful.

If you're talking about small differences like the ones on Conroy's hat there are similar differences on these Ames each pair also have a distinctly different blue background.

This is four different Ames cards I have, both Ames on the left are from a plate scratch sheet and the two on the right are caption flaws.

img639.jpg

img641.jpg

img640 - Copy - Copy.jpg


There is also a difference in some Schulte cards that is similar to the Tinker hands on knees.

I don't know if it's letters but you can see it clearly on the Schulte on the left but it's barely visible on the one on the rignt.

img627.jpg

[steve B]

Exactly the sort of thing I'd be looking for.

The process wasn't precise, and both Ames have a similar enough dot pattern on black that they probably came from the same master.

But the blue is slightly different, and less or more noticable, the plate scratch ones have a gray layer in the hat, while on the caption varieties it's closer to peach.
To me that along with the Schulte differences (as well as the right side of the bat having an extra line if it's not a different color shifted) would confirm two different press runs.

The next steps would be comparing different brands, and comparing ones that we know are sheetmates from the plate scratch sheets that did carry over into the 350 series to see if there are differences there.

It's entirely possible there are transitional ones too, where front sheets for Piedmont and SC 150 were used to print Piedmont and SC 350.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by steve B

Exactly the sort of thing I'd be looking for.

The process wasn't precise, and both Ames have a similar enough dot pattern on black that they probably came from the same master.

But the blue is slightly different, and less or more noticable, the plate scratch ones have a gray layer in the hat, while on the caption varieties it's closer to peach.
To me that along with the Schulte differences (as well as the right side of the bat having an extra line if it's not a different color shifted) would confirm two different press runs.

The next steps would be comparing different brands, and comparing ones that we know are sheetmates from the plate scratch sheets that did carry over into the 350 series to see if there are differences there.

It's entirely possible there are transitional ones too, where front sheets for Piedmont and SC 150 were used to print Piedmont and SC 350.

Really interesting information Steve. I scanned ten of my Conroy's with different backs at 1200 dpi's (boy does that eat up your computer memory).
You can clearly see the difference in the 350 backs and 460 backs.

The 350 backs have a lot of peach color around the Washington logo while the 460 backs has very little. You can see other differences in the two series with the large scans but the heavy peach on the 350's is what stands out the most.

What's nice is you can tell which series the assorted backs were printed with for instance the EPDG was printed with the 350 backs and the Polar Bear and Tolstoi were printed with the 460 backs.
I didn't scan the Old Mill but that was also printed with the 460 backs so the EPDG was the only assorted back that was printed in one of the 350 print runs.

[IMG][/IMG]

[steve B]

Plus the 350's seem to have the peach at the front of the hat in a blotchy pattern while the 460's have a gray halftone there. Except... the AB 350 has 460 shading at the front of the hat.

That could be an example of a transitional type between the 350s and 460's, as it has traits of both.
Both gray and peach should have been fairly early colors.
I'm thinking the transitions between series were somewhat chaotic.
Like for this one, they still needed to produce some AB350's but had the gray plate for the 460 series finished and just switched to it early.

If those transitional types ever get properly identified and cataloged I believe there will be some real rarities.

I'm very glad there's someone like you with a big enough collection to make those comparisons and the interest to do the scans.

The spreadsheet I did showing the different groups of 49 Leaf took months of saving photos from various sources - mostly ebay. And that's a pretty small set with far fewer complications.

[chriskim]

Pat,
Thx for sharing your Conroy pics. I could see those images this time! It is amazing to see those Conroy images side by side, their background colors do look very diff.

[Pat R]

Steve, I thought this would be a good pair to compare.
Two different Randall's that were printed in the same position but most likely in different print runs.

img661 - Copy.jpg
img660 - Copy.jpg

[IMG][/IMG]

Is the heavier Red/Peach stippling on the caption flaw version evidence of a change or is it just due to different ink levels?

I also checked all the other examples of each version and with the ones that the scans were big enough to tell the alignment mark near the top inside the border is on all the caption flaw examples but not the no flaw examples.

[jggames]

I always thought my Randall looked funny because of the heavy blue, it's really interesting to see these others up close

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Pat R

Steve, I thought this would be a good pair to compare.
Two different Randall's that were printed in the same position but most likely in different print runs.

Attachment 504812
Attachment 504813

[IMG][/IMG]

Is the heavier Red/Peach stippling on the caption flaw version evidence of a change or is it just due to different ink levels?

I also checked all the other examples of each version and with the ones that the scans were big enough to tell the alignment mark near the top inside the border is on all the caption flaw examples but not the no flaw examples.

I think the red may be just a difference in inking. Heavier or lighter, and the exact colors were mixed by hand, to a formula that isn't always precise.

One thing I look at is if the color is in one place on one card, but not there on another example.
Or, if the halftone dot pattern is very different.

On these, I'm seeing a couple areas where the black could be different, but it's also a difference that could be from normal plate wear. Or it could be a more heavily printed transfer from the same master.

One thing that's done in stamps is to require a confirming copy of a variety.* With the Conroys that's there for sure. With these Randalls, finding multiples of the very small differences in black would go a long way towards confirming if it's a different transfer from the same master.



The stuff below is off topic, but explains in part why seeing clear scans of differences is so much fun and excitement for me.


* which is at times so very frustating! In the series I specialize in there are a few listed varieties that are currently not known to exist, and were only mentioned in an era when printing pictures of stamps was mostly illegal (and the writers were often more interested in revealing new varieties based on hearing about them than actually owning or seeing them)
I have three "maybe" stamps for listed but not seen since the 30's if ever varieties that may have happened very late in production. Going on about 10 years looking for a second copy of any of them.

[Pat R]

0 T206Timeline.jpg


I think we can move print group 1 back a month or two if the information in this newspaper clip I found about the court proceedings is accurate.

Baseball pictures put in packs The_News_and_Observer_Thu__Jun_22__1911_.jpg

[jason.1969]

Originally Posted by Abravefan11

Definitive dates of when one group stopped and another began aren't known. Below is a general timeline based on what we do know, but it's by no means meant to be exact.

The Harry McIntyre BKN/CHI card in Group 2 could not have been printed until at least April 1910 since his trade to the Cubs occurred on April 13.

Of course knowing N54 collectors, I suspect one of you will flash me a BKN-only version to prove me wrong.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by jason.1969

The Harry McIntyre BKN/CHI card in Group 2 could not have been printed until at least April 1910 since his trade to the Cubs occurred on April 13.

Of course knowing N54 collectors, I suspect one of you will flash me a BKN-only version to prove me wrong.

Jason, Harry McIntyre (BKN/CHI) is print group 3.

[jason.1969]

Originally Posted by Pat R

Jason, Harry McIntyre (BKN/CHI) is print group 3.

Indeed! Brain fart on my part.


Jason
Twitter: @heavyj28