Novelty Cutlery Postcard Dating - 1910?

[Baseball Rarities]

I have always liked the Novelty Cutlery postcard set. The 1907 date has always seemed too early to me, so I did a little bit of research which has lead me to believe that the set was issued in 1910 - the same year as the PC796 Sepia postcard set, which has exact same checklist and uses the exact same images.

I am sure that I have made some dating mistakes in my research, so if you can correct any of my findings, please do.

First of all, Sam Frock is included in the set. Between 1907 and 1909, he pitched in a total of 13 games and in 1910 he pitched in 46, starting 29 of them. I doubt that he would have been included in a set until 1910. His uniform is a bit of a mystery, but it may be a Pirates, who he did not play for until 1909.

Frock 2.jpg

Dooin's uniform does not have a patch on his chest. The only year that Philadelphia did not have a patch on its chest was 1909

Dooin 2.jpg

Brown, Chance and Overall are shown in the same uniforms, which date from 1909

Chance 2.jpg

Chase's uniform has an "NY" on the sleeve. The first year that this was used is 1909.

Chase 2.jpg

So, the earliest that these photos could have been taken is 1909 which means that they were probably not produced until 1910.

All of my uniform data was taken from Mark Okkonen's book on baseball uniforms.

I have only been able to find four Novelty Cutlery postcards with postmarks on the back - 1911 (2), 1912 and 1914.

Lastly, this famous image of Cobb and Wagner was taken during the 1909 World Series. There is no way that the Novelty Cutlery company would have produced this set right after the 1909 World Series - they would have waited until at least the beginning of the 1910 season or even as late as the 1910 World Series.

[Bicem]

Great info. Kevin, and gorgeous cards!

[Wesley]

Good research. Scratch a number of Novelty Cutlery PCs off the RC list.

[benchod]

Great research Kevin
How did the 1907 date come about anyways?

[Rob D.]

Good, solid stuff, Kevin. It's always enjoyable to read research based on facts instead of theories.

Any clues why there aren't many Novelty Cutlery cards (relative to other postcard issues from the era) found postally used?

Thank you for posting.

[HRBAKER]

Originally Posted by Wesley

Good research. Scratch a number of Novelty Cutlery PCs off the RC list.

That's what I was thinking. Kevin thanks for the informative post.

[Baseball Rarities]

Originally Posted by Bicem

Great info. Kevin, and gorgeous cards!

Jeff,

Thanks, but not my cards. Stole the images from the last Goodwin auction. Hope that I did not upset anyone.

[Baseball Rarities]

Originally Posted by benchod

Great research Kevin
How did the 1907 date come about anyways?

Craig,

In 1979, the Sports Collectors Bible dated the PC805 Novelty Cutlery cards to 1907, which is kind of weird because they dated the PC796 Sepia series at circa 1910. The sets use the exact same images, so I would assume that they were issued the same year.

The 1982 "Beckett" Baseball Memorabila Price Guide has both sets listed as being from 1910.

The first edition of Krause's Standard Catalog did not include the set. I am not sure when they added it, but in the most recent edition they have the Novelty Cutlery cards as being from 1907-09 and the PC796 cards being from 1910.

I assume that Krause took the information from the Sports Collectors Bible. Not sure why they preferred that dating over Beckett's.

[Baseball Rarities]

Originally Posted by Rob D.

Any clues why there aren't many Novelty Cutlery cards (relative to other postcard issues from the era) found postally used?

Rob,

I think that any postcards that were issued as part of a "set" were often collected that way - people collected them just like baseball cards and saved them as such.

From my experience, postcards issued in sets (Rose postcards, Novelty Cutlery, Sporting Life Team Composites, etc.) are generally found postally unused.

Just my opinion.

[Bicem]

I know it would have been really hard for me to write on one of those great looking postcards and send it off through the mail.

[HRBAKER]

Originally Posted by Bicem

I know it would have been really hard for me to write on one of those great looking postcards and send it off through the mail.

Probably not if you could buy a stack for a nickel apiece.

[E93]

Excellent research Kevin. Thanks.
JimB

[benchod]

Great stuff Kevin,
I wonder how the Speaker would have fared if this info was widespread before the auction.
Still great postcards and images; for me I'm not so caught up in the "rookie" designation so it doesn't matter as much. I'm sure others feel differently.

[bcbgcbrcb]

Craig:

Not only the Speaker but how about the Cobb? Would it have sold for close to the same amount if not considered one of his Rookie Cards?

My guess is that the same person that bought the Speaker bought the Cobb also........

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by bcbgcbrcb

Craig:

Not only the Speaker but how about the Cobb? Would it have sold for close to the same amount if not considered one of his Rookie Cards?

My guess is that the same person that bought the Speaker bought the Cobb also........

I don't know of anyone who ever considered the NC Cobb to be one of his rookie cards.

[deadballpaul]

Perhaps the Elmer Flick card that is listed in the Novelty Cutlery set, & not in the PC796 set would offer more clues. Both sets were most likely produced by Vignos & Hurford Photography, Canton, OH.

[bcbgcbrcb]

Jeff:

I think that just about all HOF Rookie Card collectors have considered the Novelty Cutlery Cobb to be one of his Rookie Card options along with the Dietsche, Wolverine & Taylor postcards and W600. That is assuming that you are not hung up on the postcards are not "cards" thing and therefore do not qualify for Rookie Card status.

[bcbgcbrcb]

That's interesting, Paul. Where did you get the name of that publisher and how is it connected to those two sets?

[deadballpaul]

The Vignos family operated the Novelty Cutlery business. Vignos & Hurford was a photography company operated in conjunction with the knife business. I believe there was a photography gallery in a separate building on the Knife factory property.

[Bicem]

Originally Posted by bcbgcbrcb

Jeff:

I think that just about all HOF Rookie Card collectors have considered the Novelty Cutlery Cobb to be one of his Rookie Card options along with the Dietsche, Wolverine & Taylor postcards and W600. That is assuming that you are not hung up on the postcards are not "cards" thing and therefore do not qualify for Rookie Card status.

his w601 postcard is from 1906.

[Bicem]

Originally Posted by deadballpaul

Perhaps the Elmer Flick card that is listed in the Novelty Cutlery set, & not in the PC796 set would offer more clues. Both sets were most likely produced by Vignos & Hurford Photography, Canton, OH.

Has anyone actually seen the Flick card and can confirm that it exists?

[deadballpaul]

Here's more info on the companies. Also, I have not seen the Flick, but I have found some of the other cards only once, so they can be hard to find.

http://www.justus.ca/versailles/Ohio...rford-Misc.pdf

[Baseball Rarities]

Originally Posted by deadballpaul

Perhaps the Elmer Flick card that is listed in the Novelty Cutlery set, & not in the PC796 set would offer more clues. Both sets were most likely produced by Vignos & Hurford Photography, Canton, OH.

Paul,

From my research, Flick does not exist.

I think that Flick was probably was confused with Frock.

Frock is actually the player whom I feel dates the set to 1910. He hardly played in 1909. He was not in the Majors in 1908 and only pitched in 36 innings in 1909. 1910 was a breakout year for him, starting 29 games and tallying 257 innings. There is no reason why he would have been included in such a small set in 1909.

[deadballpaul]

Kevin, I wouldn't rule out Flick. Some of the cards are very tough to find from my experience. Novelty Cutlery was in Canton, OH. Flick played for nearby Cleveland, so maybe.....

[bcbgcbrcb]

You're right about the 1906 Cobb, Jeff. I was not including it because it is a team composite like the W601 Sporting Life premiums.

[bcbgcbrcb]

Something to think about, assuming that the 1907-09 date were correct (which it appears not to be), do we think that date was used in catalogues because the date of issue could not be pinpointed to a specific year but those three years are the only possibilities although the issue would have been produced in its entirety during only one of those years? Alternatively, do we feel that this set was issued over a three year time frame with not all cards available during a single year?

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by bcbgcbrcb

Jeff:

I think that just about all HOF Rookie Card collectors have considered the Novelty Cutlery Cobb to be one of his Rookie Card options along with the Dietsche, Wolverine & Taylor postcards and W600. That is assuming that you are not hung up on the postcards are not "cards" thing and therefore do not qualify for Rookie Card status.

I think if you search the archives of Net 54 you'll find that most do not consider the NC to be one of Cobb's rookies, PC or not. As for PCs, the W601 PC surely came before the NC as did the Dietsche.

[chaddurbin]

excellent research kevin!

some people's definition of a rookie card is contingent on whether they own said card or not.

[bcbgcbrcb]

If we are going to count W601 team composites as Rookies, then this is the Cobb Rookie.

Prior to Kevin's reasearch, I believe that just about everyone accepted the 1907-09 date of issue for the Novelty Cutlery set so why would that not be the same as the Detroit team player postcards also issued 1907-09? I don't know that the question of the NC being a Cobb Rookie Card was ever posted before on Net 54 in order for a general concensus to me made.

[Baseball Rarities]

Originally Posted by deadballpaul

Kevin, I wouldn't rule out Flick. Some of the cards are very tough to find from my experience. Novelty Cutlery was in Canton, OH. Flick played for nearby Cleveland, so maybe.....

Paul,

I really do not think that Flick exists. He has never been checklisted in the PC796 set, which has the exact same players and poses as the Novelty Cutlery set.

In the 1979 Sports Collectors Bible, a person by the name of "Flock" is listed, but no "Frock" or "Flick." Obviously, "Flock" was just a typo for "Frock" (which does exist) and somewhere down the line it was probably assumed to have been a typo for "Flick" (does not exist) which was then erroneously added to the list.

The 1982 verson of the "Beckett" Baseball Memorabilia and Price Guide does not include Flick in its checklist, which is the same that is used for the PC796 set. This guide also refers to both sets as being from 1910, which is what I believe also.

It looks as though the incorrect date of 1907 and the inclusion of "Flock/Flick" originates the Sports Collectors Bible. I have to assume that whenever Krause's Standard Catlog decided to include the Novelty Cutlery issue in their price guide, they decided to copy this info from the Sports Collectors Bible instead of Beckett which had it dated and checklisted correctly.

[Bicem]

Originally Posted by bcbgcbrcb

If we are going to count W601 team composites as Rookies, then this is the Cobb Rookie.

That opens up the argument though if an over-sized paper premium is considered a rookie card vs a cardboard postcard.

Nice Flick research, I'm also in the camp that it does not exist. No one has seen it and why would that be the one difference between the NC's and Sepia's?

[calvindog]

Phil, at least as I saw it (and presumably many others because, as I said, very few ever thought of the NC PC as a Cobb rookie), there was some confusion as to the actual date of the NCs. Many felt that the later date in the 1907-09 range was the correct date of production, unlike the Dietsche where it seemed clear that Cobb's card(s) had at least initially been produced in 1907. And of course this does not include the W601s which were produced even earlier but were team sets.

[Baseball Rarities]

Due to the exceptional examples that have come up in a couple current auctions, I have recently received a number of inquiries about the dating of this issue, wondering if anything has changed since I originally started this thread in 2010.

I still think that these postcards are from 1910.

The PC796 Sepia set has always been dated to 1910 and I see no reason why the PC805 Novelty Cutlery should not be as well.

Beckett got the dating right in 1982 (see below).

[RedsFan1941]

love the ones in REA! unusual to see that many offered in one auction these days.

[x2drich2000]

Great info Kevin, I've been leaning more and more into building a mixed PC796/Novelty Cutlery set. Definitely looking at a few in the upcoming auctions. And cause every thread can use more pics, here's my Plank.