Leaving Me Puzzled and Smiling

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Posted By: Lee Behrens

I recently had a very strange non-transaction on ebay. The seller is a reputable dealer we all know and will remain nameless.

About a month ago I put in a bid for a card, I accidently put in a $366 bid (instead of $36) for a item that should not go for over $50. I could not retract the bid because it was within the time frame that Ebay does not allow a retraction. I emailed the seller that I had dropped in the wrong bid. I had to go to work before the end of the auction, so when I got home I was amazed to find that I had won the card for $137.
I emailed the seller with what had happened and he agreed to not hold me to the bid but made it known he was not overly happy about because he realized the price was really high on the card and he would have to relist the card for the consignor. I told him he could just use the second chance offer beccause there were 3 bidders over $100. I was told they do not use that feature because nobody uses it. I thought that was strange because what could it hurt. Well that seemed the end of that. But there's more.

A couple of weeks later I unknowingly won the same card for $40 (more realistic price) again after the relist. I did not realize it was the same card until after I won it. I received the invoice sent the money, received notification of payment received. The payment received notification had a note attached:

"We received your payment for the card. However, we do not think it is fair for our consigner that you won it for $100 less than when the card was originally listed. If you want the card for your original bid price of $137.38, then we will be happy to sell it, otherwise, we are going to return your payment."

This kind of floored me. I sent email in response that if that is the way they felt I just wanted my money back and reviewed the whole scenario again with them.

I still don't know if I am angry, confused, laughing or what. I have had dozens of transactions with the seller and this really questions whether I want anymore. I appreciated the fact that they were willing to not hold me to the original auction, but I felt if they were trying get the best money for there consignor they should have used the second chance offer.

Just needed to relay this bizarre exchange,

Lee

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Posted By: Josh K.

I think that this is complete bs on the seller's part. He knew that your bid was a mistake and agreed to let you withdraw/not pay. He had a reasonable way to make nearly as much as you had bid by using the second chance feature and decided against doing so. The fact that you were able to win the card again at a much lower price is irrelevant as he would have had to sell it to someone else at that price if you hadnt bid. If it was a card that was worth the amount of your first bid maybe Id feel differently (though I doubt it).

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Posted By: Chad

The seller blew it and now has to explain how they blew it to the consignor. So the seller is taking it out on you in an effort to pass the buck. I'd let it roll off my back. Enjoying the card is the best revenge!

--Chad

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Posted By: Josh K.

except Lee cant enjoy the card b/c the seller wont go through with the sale.

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Posted By: Chad

Excellent point.

--Chad

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Posted By: Todd Schultz

but how would you have reacted if the seller tried unsuccessfully with the second chance offer for the underbidders? Would you offer to make it up to the seller in any way at that point? You seem to imply that it was a given the card would have sold for a buck or two less through second chance, when I don't see it that way. I have never taken anyone up on a second chance offer, and I'm sure I'm not alone.

The seller is obligated to follow through on the deal, just as you were the first time. The fact that he chose not to does not speak all that well for him, but I can certainly understand why he would be pissed.

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Posted By: Tom Boblitt

a mistake on my auctionsniper bids before but I generally do like the rotisserie oven on tv.....'set it and forget it' so I don't remember it till after I've won it or lost it. If I'd seen something AFTER the fact that I'd won for WAY more than I wanted to bid, I'd still honor the bid. But if I notified the seller prior to auction end that I made a mistake and he allowed me to get out of that mistake, I'd feel the same as you do..........

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Posted By: jay wolt

"A couple of weeks later I unknowingly won the same card for $40"

Funny thing, if you didn't bid the 2nd time around, it would have sold to another bidder in the $30's. So you still helped the seller get a higher price the 2nd time around.
Oddly enough, this card will probably be back on eBay for the 3rd time.
It may even go for much less as people will perceive it as easy to obtain since its always offered on eBay...jay

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Posted By: Josh K.

Todd,

Not to further a "fight" (heck, its not even my problem) but where I would have to disagree with you is with the fact that Lee contacted the seller as soon as he realized his bid was a mistake - prior to the auction concluding. The bid could not be withdrawn due to the timing (I assume it was w/in the last 24hrs of the auction) but the seller acknowledged the mistake and agreed to ignore his bid - in retrospect, the seller should have manually cancelled the bid (which I think you can always do as a seller regardless of the timing). Lee then "won" the item with the incorrect bid and again notified the seller of the problem and the seller then agreed a second time to ignore the bid.

The seller's decision not to offer the second chance option is really irrelevant whether it would have been accepted or not since he knew in advance that the bid was an error.

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Posted By: Todd Schultz

if the seller could manually cancel the bid and allow the auction to run its course, then failure to do that makes it the seller's fault.

Personally, I have had it happen twice-once I discovered it a minute or two before auction end, and the other after. I honored both bids, and chalked it up as a stupidity penalty.

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Posted By: Lee Behrens

Todd, If the final price was any where within reasonable I would have honored the final auction, but when it is 3 times the going rate (which was proven by the second run) that is why I asked that I not be obligated to honor the auction.

The seller never gave me notification that he was going to cancel my bid but it was at least 6 hrs. before the end of the auction and I never received a response before or after the auction on the email asking to cancel my bid. Actually they have responded to only half of the emails I sent regarding the matter.

Lee

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Posted By: Paul Stratton

What about ebay fees? Since he had to relist he had to eat all the fees, which were higher since you bid the wrong amount. I understand you entered the wrong amount but it's not his mistake yet he has to pay for it. Then you win the same card for $100 less. It might be bad business on his part but I can't say I blame him...I'd be grumpy too.

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Posted By: Lee Behrens

The fees were retracted. I also see there side but I bid on many of there auctions and cards of a similar grade in the same time period. It would not take much to realize that I made a mistake. It is not like it was the first time I dealt with them.

The whole situation is goofy to me.

Lee

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Posted By: Damian

Is it possible the seller took the info on the mistake bid and tried to jack up the price hoping to hold you to your bid and then thought better of it? What a weird scenerio.

Damian

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Posted By: scgaynor

I was the seller, so let me explain.

Lee won the card for $137 about 2 months ago, ebay item #5235751090. He contacted us 4 hours before the auction ended, and told us that he placed the wrong bid. It was a Saturday afternoon so nobody got the e-mail until after the close of the auction.

On Sunday he e-mailed us again and told us that he placed the wrong bid and was not going to pay for it. I was annoyed that he placed the wrong bid (since the bidder has to confirm twice the amount that he wants to bid)and that he didn't cancel the bid himself. Because he was a Network 54 member I decided to give him the benefit of the doubt and relist the item without making too much of an issue out of it. He asked that we sell it to the underbidder, but we don't do that as it looks fishy when you start offering things to underbidders immediatley after the close of an auction.

When he won the card again for $39.51, I refused to sell it to him. It is simply not fair to our consignor to have Lee win a card at one price against legitimate bidders (look at the bidding history on #5235751090) and then win it again for almost $100 cheaper the 2nd time around when the piece is more likely to sell for less. There were four bidders who bid higher than $39.51 when we originally listed the item who didn't participate the 2nd time around, probably since they lost out the first time. In the case of this card, there were three of reasons why it sold for less (we didn't have more similar cards posted at the same time, the original bidders didn't participate again and it was the 2nd time that it was listed).

Even if we did have time to cancel his bid, it is Lee's responsibility to retract his bid with ebay (not mine) since Ebay keeps track of things like that to fight fraud. We only cancel bids when a bidder has horrible feedback or there is a problem with the listing and we have to end the auction.

Scott

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Posted By: T206Collector

<<it looks fishy when you start offering things to underbidders immediatley after the close of an auction.>>

It is not nearly as fishy if you offer the card for the price that it would have sold for had the original winner never bid at all, i.e., not $134.88 but $103.50.

These are the 3 highest bids in the original offer:
bowlingshoegiverouterguy ( 901) US $137.38 Sep-03-05 13:24:23 PDT
hortica ( 876) US $134.88 Sep-03-05 16:55:00 PDT
ycbtal(private) US $101.00 Sep-03-05 16:49:50 PDT

The problem with 2nd-chance offers, is that they too often offer the card at the 2nd-highest bidder's high price (here $134.88) even though the only reason the seller even knows what the 2nd-high bidder's limit was is because of a 1st-highest bidder that was unable to pay in the first place (or ultimately made a mistake, as here).

The only fishy thing would be if the 2nd-highest bidder did not want this particular card at $103.50, even though he expressed an interest in paying over $30 more for it. Given the dramatic difference in price after the second listing, is there any question that an appropriate 2nd-chance offer here would have made a lot of sense?

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Posted By: scgaynor

So I should tell my consignor that even though there was a bid of $137, I sold his card for $103 because the high bidder (who has good feedback) decided that he bid too much and didn't want to pay for it. If you were the consignor, would you be happy with that explaination?

Like I said earlier, we don't offer things to underbidders (none of the underbidders on this card accept 2nd chance offers anyway). I am not the one who made the mistake.

Next time that you overpay for something from Rob Lifson, tell him that you don't want to pay for it and ask him to resell it so you can win it cheaper next time.

Scott

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Posted By: T206Collector

<<So I should tell my consignor that even though there was a bid of $137, I sold his card for $103 because the high bidder (who has good feedback) decided that he bid too much and didn't want to pay for it. If you were the consignor, would you be happy with that explaination?>>

Given the alternative -- no money and a relisting that is likely to earn less than $103 -- and a very basic understanding of ebay, I would be satisfied with that result, if only a little disappointed to learn that the high bidder made an error. The high bidder's good feedback would only serve to reinforce the high bidder's credibility when he states he made an error.

The only purpose behind my originaly post is that 2nd-chance offers can be done well without the fishiness if they appropriately target the margin above the 3rd-highest bidder (as opposed to the inappropriately revealed 2nd-highest bidder's high bid).

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Posted By: Al Crisafulli

Errors happen, on both ends.

In my opinion, when you have a reputable buyer and a reputable seller, as is the case here (particularly when the buyer has purchased from the seller before), the problem is one that should be easily resolved.

In my opinion, the buyer clearly made an error and contacted the seller long before the auction ended in a good faith effort to get the bid cancelled. The seller agreed to honor the buyer's request to cancel the transaction, although he didn't have to. If there were any listing fees incurred, the buyer should have paid them. Problem solved, issue over.

When the seller relisted the item, if the original buyer had not won the auction, but someone else had, and the card had sold for $30, the seller would have honored the transaction, no problems. Because of who the buyer was, the seller chose to reneg on the deal.

Now there's a situation where a reputable buyer and a reputable seller will be wary of doing business with one another. Everyone who buys and sells on ebay knows who both of you guys are. Over a hundred dollars, this seems silly.

-Al

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Posted By: identify7

I have never thought this situation (of a potential second chance offer) through as far as T206Collector has.

Although hindsight is 20/20, his observations make sense for possible next time application. I know that I have twice been offered a second chance at my high bid, which I turned down. I may not have declined at my low "winning" bid level.

Edited to add: For me, it would depend to a large extent on the credibility of the seller.