How many T206 Wagners ???

[quinnsryche]

I have seen many numbers thrown out there. Does anyone know how many ACTUAL T206 Honus Wagner cards are really out there? Without listing real names (for safety sake, maybe give a first and last initial some we don't duplicate in counting) does anyone know anyone who has a real one (not counting the graded ones). I have always wondered how someone can say in an article, etc. "there are about 50-75 copies out there" Has an official count ever been taken?

[Matthew H]

Have any of them been crossed over from psa to sgc? If so, have they been removed from psa pop reports? 34+9 there is also just one with beckett, right?

[mintacular]

Not enuff

[FrankWakefield]

First, I agree with Pat.

I've held one, and know 4 people that have had them, and I think one of those might have been included in that 50 - 75 quantity of yours. Lots of folks think that. I think there are a bunch of cards out there that the internet, show, board, and National folks never see and don't know about. I know there are. I think that if some folks think that there are maybe 75, that little ol' me knows of a few more, that there must be even more out there that aren't widely known, so there must be 120 to 150 or so. With that said, I again agree with Pat, not enough. Hope someone finds a big stash. If a stash of 800 of them were found, and the price on the card dropped down to that of a red Cobb portrait, would any of us lose our enchantment with the white border tobacco cards?? Not me.

[E93]

Of course we will never know exactly how many there are, but there are folks who have been around the hobby a long time, like Rob Lifson, for example, who have personally seen, sold, or know of the vast majority of the examples in the hobby. I trust their estimates when they put it at around 60-75. My guess is that they know of the ones Frank knows of.

If there are 75 Wagners out there and approximately 3 change hands per year (either publicly or privately), then that means the average Wagner owner holds their card for about 25 years. I can't imagine the average being much higher than that. I think if there were 120-150, we would see them more frequently.
JimB

[Baseball Rarities]

You cannot go by grading company's population reports - four of the best Wagners in the hobby have not even been graded.


I also think that 50 to 75 is a pretty good guestimate.

[FrankWakefield]

I've seen a Wagner in a collection that has been there for 50 years... the Lifson's of the hobby know not of its existence, I doubt that Lifson was keeping up with card in 1960. Maybe they accounted for it in their guesstimations. I doubt it. I agree we'll never know. And I think my 'guess' is closer to reality that 50 to 75.

[E93]

Back in the '60's, there were only a handful of them in the hobby (less than 10), according to period publications. Those that followed closely could keep a reasonably good count as new examples were discovered. Of course some may not have been big public announcements, but I imagine the Rob Lifsons, Bill Mastros, and the elder hobby statesmen that they were close with had pretty good knowledge and a reasonably accurate running tally. It is just like it is reliable hobby knowledge that the total number of Cobb backs in the hobby has gone from 6 to 14 in the last fifteen years, thanks primarily to a major find of 5 in 1997.
JimB

[Peter_Spaeth]

My understanding is that the 50-75 figure does not represent only the known Wagners -- after all it is an estimate -- but rather is an extrapolation based on the known ones. So it probably accounts for ones like Frank's example.

[49leaf]

Yes call me crazy! The pop reports are not right. I think there are about 40 total if that. The price goes up every year. Demand is bigtime. Because supply is low.

[ullmandds]

i agree that the figure of 50,60-75,80 is an extrapolation...and I believe this figure to be somewhat accurate...In my opinion there is NO way there are 100-150 t206 wagses...no way!

[Matthew H]

What 4 examples? I know the one in cooperstown is probably near mint but what other 3?

I know that busting a card out of a holder to get an unbiased second opinion is common so I think there might be less examples of the poor 1 grade then they have reported.

I have not seen a raw example at auction or heard of a private sale but I don't follow the card too close.

I have trouble with the 50+ raw card theory

[fkw]

For what its worth, I have scans of 28 of them (inc. the Proof).

Ive only been "collecting" the pics for 4-5 years now.

All scans are from internet or auction catalogs from 1988-2010.

I always say est.65

[Baseball Rarities]

Peter.

That is my understanding as well.

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

My understanding is that the 50-75 figure does not represent only the known Wagners -- after all it is an estimate -- but rather is an extrapolation based on the known ones. So it probably accounts for ones like Frank's example.

[Baseball Rarities]

Matthew,

I doubt that the other three owners would be too happy with me if I posted their names. Two are members of this board and post. They can decide if they want you to know who they are. The other is a very well known collector who does not post. None of his collection is slabbed.

Kevin

Originally Posted by Matthew H

What 4 examples? I know the one in cooperstown is probably near mint but what other 3?

I know that busting a card out of a holder to get an unbiased second opinion is common so I think there might be less examples of the poor 1 grade then they have reported.

I have not seen a raw example at auction or heard of a private sale but I don't follow the card too close.

I have trouble with the 50+ raw card theory

[Matthew H]

I don't need to know who. I believe they are there.

[fkw]

Best 10 for eye appeal, out of the 28 different I have scans of.

(#1 is the PSA-8 chopped example, #3 is a PSA-5, #4 is a SGC-40, #5 is a Fritsch owned one, #6 is a PSA-2, #7 is a SGC-40, #8 is/was a GAI 3.5, #9 is restored)



etc. etc.

[ullmandds]

Unless the baseball HOF has a "new" wagner...I remember theirs being a g maybe...definitely nowhere near nmt?

[Baseball Rarities]

The BB HOF Wagner is a beauty. Not NM, but definitely one of the best in the hobby. It came from Halper.

Originally Posted by ullmandds

Unless the baseball HOF has a "new" wagner...I remember theirs being a g maybe...definitely nowhere near nmt?

[ullmandds]

Ahhh...I was last in Cooperstown when I was 13...in 1982...I presume they didnt have the halper wags then?

[Matthew H]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

Unless the baseball HOF has a "new" wagner...I remember theirs being a g maybe...definitely nowhere near nmt?

I have never seen it but I have been told that it is near mint by people that have seen it.

[ullmandds]

i stand corrected...that wags looks suh-weet!

[Peter_Spaeth]

In fkw's post Wagner #2 looks quite different in both the face and uniform than all the others -- maybe just a function of the scan?

[Baseball Rarities]

I think that they got it around 1999.

Originally Posted by ullmandds

Ahhh...I was last in Cooperstown when I was 13...in 1982...I presume they didnt have the halper wags then?