"1888" GOODWIN CHAMPIONS (N162) cards are actually an 1889 set

[tedzan]

OK, contrary to the thinking of a number of you guys on this forum....T206's are not my favorite cards. The N162 set is my favorite since I started collecting
these beautiful cards in the late 1980's. It is my opinion, the N162 cards are Sportscard's lithography at its absolute best. In the past 30 years, I have com-
pleted 3.4 sets in the process of upgraded the 50 cards in my #1 set. Now, this doesn't make me an expert on these 19th Century cards; and, I do not claim
to be one. However, I have studied many of the players in this set, and I am convinced that it was printed and issued in 1889. I will spare you all the "nitty-
gritty" that leads me to this conclusion. And, I'll leave you to ponder the following three arguments......


Major stars portrayed in the GOODWIN CHAMPIONS set

.

Although Fred Dunlap helped Detroit win the Championship in 1887, Detroit traded him to Pittsburgh for the 1888 season. He was the highest paid player in Major League BB
in 1887, and it is my understanding that is why he was traded. In 1888, Fred was the regular 2nd baseman for Pittsburgh. In 1889, besides playing 2nd base, in mid-season
Fred replaced Horace Phillips as Pittsburgh's manager. Note that his card identifies him as "DUNLAP, Capt., Pittsburgh".



The Certificates to obtain the GOODWIN CHAMPIONS Album (A36) refer to the Champions of 1888. Which ordinarily would suggest that the printing was in 1889.





The A36 Album from an aesthetic standpoint is the best there is in this hobby. I acquired this one 20+ years ago, and the inscription on it aroused my curiosity. I realize
this is just anecdotal.....but, had it been dated 1888, I would haven't given it a 2nd thought.





I look forward to hearing what your thoughts are regarding the year in which the N162 cards and the Album were issued ?


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[Joe_G.]

Hello Ted,

Always enjoy a 19th century thread. Seems dating sets has become a little more popular, a subject I enjoy.

You are at least partially right in that the A36 album could be ordered in 1889. It did however debut in 1888. There are seven known variations of redemption coupons with 4 issued in 1888 and another three issued in 1889. All of them offer the A36 album with exception of the first 1889 coupon which only touted the cabinets and upcoming round album (A35).

Regarding Dunlap, "Captain" and "Manager" are two different titles and were almost always two different people. The captain was typically a player, manager not. Dunlap became captain on the Pittsburgh team in 1888. Note this 1888 Old Judge as evidence (not mine although it is on my wantlist). I also have some newspaper photocopies that discuss him being named captain but it is easier to hyperlink to this 1888 OJ (this style OJ, Fb, date to 1888).

The real question is whether N162s, like the A36 album, were also distributed into 1889. To that question I do not have an answer although I think not. Goodwin was very careful to update N172s when players moved, accuracy seemed rather important to them. Brouthers would move from Detroit to Boston between 1888 and 1889 but we see no such update to his N162 card. (Yet that didn't stop Goodwin from offering albums that were then inaccurate; perhaps they continued to offer the album until printed supply ran out sometime in 1889. I note that Goodwin dropped the coupon count from 75 to 50 in 1889 to perhaps encourage the supply to be exhausted)

[barrysloate]

If these cards were popular, as they almost surely were, wouldn't it be logical that they would be distributed into a second year? Why give up a good thing. They may have printed more than they could have given out in 1888, so why not keep them coming?

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Joe_G.

Hello Ted,
Always enjoy a 19th century thread. Seems dating sets has become a little more popular, a subject I enjoy.

Regarding Dunlap, "Captain" and "Manager" are two different titles and were almost always two different people. The captain was typically a player, manager not.

Hi Joe

Pardon me for differing with you here......but, it appears to me that the titles "Captain" & "Manager" in that era were interchangeable. For example, SABR's bio on "King" Kelly states:
"Kelly was named captain and manager of the Boston Reds". We know Kelly was a playing-manager in 1890 in Boston. And, if I recall correctly, Kelly's N173 cabinet identifies him as:
Kelly, Capt.
Boston

And, of course this N173 is dated as an 1889 card. Or perhaps, is it possibly an 1890 issue ?

I bring up this possibility because of the intriguing story about the George Toffling proof card (page 69 in your OLD JUDGE book). Which raises the question>were some N173's issued
in 1890 ?

I still think the term "Capt." on the N162 card of Dunlap represents "Manager". As, I have not seen anything indicating he was the Pittsburgh team Captain in 1888.

N172, N173, etc., etc. cards of Anson identify him as "Capt."...... although he was a playing-manager from 1879 - 1898.


Take care my friend,


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[Joe_G.]

A little more background . . . captain does not = manager although a playing manager can be both.

It was an honor to be named team captain, typically a player with good skills, deep knowledge of the game, and well liked by players. If the manager happens to also be a player than you could have someone like Anson who was both captain and manager (manager has say in naming the captain).

In 1887, Detroit had Watkins as manager and Hanlon as captain (& center fielder), Dunlap was merely 2nd baseman. Dunlap was heavily recruited by Pittsburgh as the 1887 season came to a close. Dunlap would be signed by Pittsburgh one week after this late 1887 entry from the Pittsburgh Post with indications that they wanted him as captain.

Here is another entry before start of 1888 season in which he is referred to as captain. He would be known as Captain Dunlap his whole time with Pittsburgh. He would manage 17 games near the end of his stay but that had nothing to do with his title as Captain.

Dunlap would have 9 different N172 poses issued by Goodwin & Co. in 1888, all with "Capt. Dunlap" at nameplate.

[1880nonsports]

especially after they realized how much they were spending on promotional items -and redemptions as time went on - way more than the cost of the smokes and often exceeding 40% of operating budget. Think presidential heads base ball card series and many other advertising pieces of the 1880's and 1890's. Same thing with the T206 promotional ERA - generally extended deadlines and enhanced offerings were employed until they utilized and distributed what they had. Too bad there was no Job Lots or...…

Albums were expensive to produce. I can really only think of one time replacements were made - the Ginter Indian Chief album - although more likely it was something they fixed by a subsequent printing. Of course there could be others. Quite a few coupons were needed to secure

"Yet that didn't stop Goodwin from offering albums that were then inaccurate; perhaps they continued to offer the album until printed supply ran out sometime in 1889. I note that Goodwin dropped the coupon count from 75 to 50 in 1889 to perhaps encourage the supply to be exhausted) "

no guarantees whether written or implied

[tedzan]

Hi Joe

Thanks for that info regarding Fred Dunlap....very interesting.

So, I will delve back into my research and see what other bits of info I have that may prove my contention that the N162 cards and Album
may have been printed and issued in 1889.

Thanks again,


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[oldjudge]

[QUOTE=tedzan;1789223]

I bring up this possibility because of the intriguing story about the George Toffling proof card (page 69 in your OLD JUDGE book). Which raises the question>were some N173's issued
in 1890 ?


Ted-I saw your question about Toffling and I had to jump in. A Toffling N173 could have theoretically only been issued in 1889 (none was) because that was the only year he was slated to play in the Western Association. Goodwin issued cards for players who played in the Western Association, even if they had no prior Old Judge card. However, in 1890 Toffling played in the Central Interstate League. First, in 1890 Goodwin issued only NL and PL cards. Second, even if Goodwin employed the card issuance protocol that it did in 1889, Toffling could not have had a card since players in lower minor leagues only had team change cards issued, ie cards previously issued modified to reflect the new team. Toffling had no prior card.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by tedzan

I bring up this possibility because of the intriguing story about the George Toffling proof card (page 69 in your OLD JUDGE book). Which raises the question>were some N173's issued
in 1890 ?

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Ted-I saw your question about Toffling and I had to jump in. A Toffling N173 could have theoretically only been issued in 1889 (none was) because that was the only year he was slated to play in the Western Association. Goodwin issued cards for players who played in the Western Association, even if they had no prior Old Judge card. However, in 1890 Toffling played in the Central Interstate League. First, in 1890 Goodwin issued only NL and PL cards. Second, even if Goodwin employed the card issuance protocol that it did in 1889, Toffling could not have had a card since players in lower minor leagues only had team change cards issued, ie cards previously issued modified to reflect the new team. Toffling had no prior card.

Jay

I was fascinated by the George Toffling / N173 proof story.

Thanks for further elaborating on it.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[oldjudge]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Jay

I was fascinated by the George Toffling / N173 proof story.

Thanks for further elaborating on it.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

It’s a fascinating card. I’m glad someone actually read what we wrote.