OT: The greatest "common" players

[darkhorse9]

I had a discussion with some friends about the Hall Of Fame that developed into an interesting exercise. Name the greatest player from each team that would never be in the discussion for the Hall Of Fame. They could be All-Stars, but never HOFers. For the purposes of this discussion we keep it to the Topps years (1951 - 1980)

That qualifier alone leads to discussion, but you'd be amazed at the names you pull out. Remember, if you could make a reasonable argument for them to get into the Hall they don't count.

Here are some of the ones I selected

New York Yankees - Bill Skowron
Baltimore Orioles - Dave McNally
Boston Red Sox - Frank Malzone
Detroit Tigers - Mickey Lolich
Cleveland Indians - Sam McDowell
Milwaukee Brewers/Seattle Pilots - George Scott
Toronto Blue Jays - Tony Fernandez

Kansas City Royals - Amos Otis
Texas Rangers / Washington Senators - Frank Howard
Chicago White Sox - Dick Allen
Minnesota Twins - Chuck Knoblock
California Angels - Jim Fregosi
Seattle Mariners - Alex Rodriguez
Oakland A's - Vida Blue

Philadelphia Phillies - Johnny Callison
Pittsburgh Pirates - Bobby Bonilla
St. Louis Cardinals - Ken Boyer
Chicago Cubs - Don Kessinger
Montreal Expos / Washington Nationals - Rusty Staub
New York Mets - Dwight Gooden

Los Angeles Dodgers / Brooklyin Dodgers - Ron Cey
Cincinnati Reds - Dave Concepcion
Houston Astros - Cesar Cedeno
San Francisco Giants/New York Giants - John Antonelli
San Diego Padres - Nate Colbert
Atlanta Braves / Milwaukee Braves - Del Crandall



Cut and Paste your selections:


New York Yankees -
Baltimore Orioles -
Boston Red Sox -
Detroit Tigers -
Cleveland Indians -
Milwaukee Brewers/Seattle Pilots -
Toronto Blue Jays -

Kansas City Royals -
Texas Rangers / Washington Senators -
Chicago White Sox -
Minnesota Twins -
California Angels -
Seattle Mariners -
Kansas City A's / Oakland A's -

Philadelphia Phillies -
Pittsburgh Pirates -
St. Louis Cardinals -
Chicago Cubs -
Montreal Expos / Washington Nationals -
New York Mets -

Los Angeles Dodgers / Brooklyin Dodgers -
Cincinnati Reds -
Houston Astros -
San Francisco Giants/New York Giants -
San Diego Padres -
Atlanta Braves / Milwaukee Braves -

[kailes2872]

New York Yankees - Hank Bauer
Baltimore Orioles - Boog Powell
Boston Red Sox - Jackie Jensen/Fred Lynn
Detroit Tigers -Norm Cash
Cleveland Indians - Rocky Colovito
Milwaukee Brewers/Seattle Pilots - Cecil Cooper
Toronto Blue Jays - ?? (77-80 can't think of anyone)

Kansas City Royals - Willie Wilson
Texas Rangers / Washington Senators - Jeff Burroughs
Chicago White Sox - Chet Lemon
Minnesota Twins - Jim Perry
California Angels - Bobby Grich
Seattle Mariners - Edgar Martinez
Oakland A's - Sal Bando

Philadelphia Phillies - Larry Bowa
Pittsburgh Pirates - Dave Parker
St. Louis Cardinals - Keith Hernandez
Chicago Cubs - Leon Durham
Montreal Expos / Washington Nationals - Ron Leflore
New York Mets - Ray Knight

Los Angeles Dodgers / Brooklyin Dodgers - Davey Lopes
Cincinnati Reds - Lee May
Houston Astros - Jimmy Wynn
San Francisco Giants/New York Giants - Mike McCormick
San Diego Padres - Randy Jones
Atlanta Braves / Milwaukee Braves - Bob Buhl

[6-4-3memorabilia]

New York Yankees - Roy White
Baltimore Orioles - Boog Powell
Boston Red Sox - Dwight Evans
Detroit Tigers - Cecil Fielder
Cleveland Indians - Al Rosen
Milwaukee Brewers/Seattle Pilots - Cecil Cooper
Toronto Blue Jays - Tony Fernandez

Kansas City Royals - Hal McRae
Texas Rangers / Washington Senators - Frank Howard
Chicago White Sox - Ron Laflure
Minnesota Twins - Bob Allison
California Angels - Brian Downing
Seattle Mariners - Edgar Martinez
Oakland A's - Sal Bando

Philadelphia Phillies - Bob Boone
Pittsburgh Pirates - Kent tekulve
St. Louis Cardinals - Ted Simmons
Chicago Cubs - Dave Kingmen
Montreal Expos / Washington Nationals - Dennis martinez
New York Mets - Jerry Koosman

Los Angeles Dodgers / Brooklyin Dodgers - Gil Hodges
Cincinnati Reds - Ken Griffey Sr.
Houston Astros - JR Richard
San Francisco Giants/New York Giants - Jim Davenport
San Diego Padres - Gary Templeton
Atlanta Braves / Milwaukee Braves - Rico Carty

[David W]

Just off the top of my head with no research....

New York Yankees - Ron Guidry
Baltimore Orioles - Ken Singleton
Boston Red Sox - Jacoby Ellsbury
Detroit Tigers - Lance Parrish
Cleveland Indians - Kenny Lofton
Milwaukee Brewers/Seattle Pilots - Gorman Thomas
Toronto Blue Jays - Dave Stieb

Kansas City Royals - Frank White
Texas Rangers / Washington Senators - Josh Hamilton
Chicago White Sox - Paul Konerko
Minnesota Twins - Kent Hrbek
California Angels - Tim Salmon
Seattle Mariners - Jamie Moyer
Oakland A's - Dave Stewart

Philadelphia Phillies - Greg Luzinski
Pittsburgh Pirates - Bob Friend or Vern Law
St. Louis Cardinals - Keith Hernandez
Chicago Cubs - Mark Grace
Montreal Expos / Washington Nationals - Steve Rogers
New York Mets - Gooden or Strawberry

Los Angeles Dodgers / Brooklyin Dodgers - Eric Karros
Cincinnati Reds - Dave Concepcion
Houston Astros - Lance Berkman
San Francisco Giants/New York Giants - Tim Lincecum
San Diego Padres - Nate Colbert
Atlanta Braves / Milwaukee Braves - Dale Murphy

[ALR-bishop]

Is there a minimum time frame they had to be with the team, for example Roger Maris played a couple of years in St Louis. Joe Torre as well. Speaking of Torre, what if a player would not make the Hall as just a player, but might/would based on later accomplishments in the game ?

[BradH]

Originally Posted by darkhorse9

Name the greatest player from each team that would never be in the discussion for the Hall Of Fame. They could be All-Stars, but never HOFers...Remember, if you could make a reasonable argument for them to get into the Hall they don't count.

Mark-
I would agree with most of your choices, but would say that Alex Rodriguez will ALWAYS be in the Hall of Fame discussion. Whether he gets in or not is another topic, but he - like Pete Rose and others - will always be mentioned simply because of the amazing career he produced (albeit with help).

As a childhood White Sox fan, I’d choose Wilbur Wood over Dick Allen, and maybe make Allen a great choice for the Phils.

In addition to Crandall, a good choice for the Braves would be Ralph Garr.

[darkhorse9]

Agreed. Whether they belong in the Hall Of Fame is certainly part of the whole discussion (and in fact the very heart of it)

There are several players listed that should be considered that people have listed. Gil Hodges, Dale Murphy, Fred Lynn, Rocky Colavito and Dave Parker all certainly have the cred to be in the Hall Of Fame discussion.

That being said..lots of great names already being thrown out.

[bradmar48]

You can tell I'm a little older than some that have posted

New York Yankees – Bill Skowron
Baltimore Orioles - Boog Powell
Boston Red Sox – Jackie Jensen
Detroit Tigers – Norm Cash
Cleveland Indians – Rocky Colovito/Herb Score
Milwaukee Brewers/Seattle Pilots - Cecil Cooper
Toronto Blue Jays - Tony Fernandez/Dave Stieb

Kansas City Royals - Hal McRae
Texas Rangers / Washington Senators - Frank Howard
Chicago White Sox – Minnie Minoso
Washington Senators- Mickey Vernon/Pete Runnels -Minnesota Twins - Bob Allison
California Angels – Bobby Grich
Seattle Mariners - Edgar Martinez
Kansas City A’s-Bobby Shantz/Gus Zernial-Oakland A's - Sal Bando

Philadelphia Phillies – Larry Bowa
Pittsburgh Pirates – Dick Groat
St. Louis Cardinals – Ken Boyer
Chicago Cubs – Hank Sauer
Montreal Expos / Washington Nationals - Dennis Martinez
New York Mets - Jerry Koosman

Los Angeles Dodgers / Brooklyin Dodgers - Gil Hodges /Carl Furillo
Cincinnati Reds – Ted Kluszewski
Houston Astros - JR Richard
San Francisco Giants/New York Giants – Alvin Dark
San Diego Padres - Gary Templeton
Atlanta Braves / Milwaukee Braves – Joe Adcock

[JollyElm]

New York Yankees - Thurman Munson
Baltimore Orioles - Boog Powell
Boston Red Sox - Fred Lynn
Detroit Tigers - Chet Lemon
Cleveland Indians - Andre Thornton
Milwaukee Brewers/Seattle Pilots - Gorman Thomas
Toronto Blue Jays - Joe Carter

Kansas City Royals - Amos Otis
Texas Rangers / Washington Senators - Toby Harrah
Chicago White Sox - Harold Baines
Minnesota Twins - Tony Oliva
California Angels - Don Baylor
Seattle Mariners - NONE
Oakland A's - Sal Bando

Philadelphia Phillies - Larry Bowa
Pittsburgh Pirates - Dave Parker
St. Louis Cardinals - Willie McGee
Chicago Cubs - Bill Madlock
Montreal Expos / Washington Nationals - Ellis Valentine
New York Mets - Dave Kingman

Los Angeles Dodgers / Brooklyin Dodgers - Steve Garvey
Cincinnati Reds - George Foster
Houston Astros - Cesar Cedeno
San Francisco Giants/New York Giants - Bobby Bonds
San Diego Padres - NONE
Atlanta Braves / Milwaukee Braves - Darrell Evans

[nolemmings]

New York Yankees - Thurman Munson
Baltimore Orioles - Boog Powell
Boston Red Sox - Nomar Garciaparra
Detroit Tigers - Norm Cash
Cleveland Indians - Albert Belle
Milwaukee Brewers/Seattle Pilots - Cecil Cooper
Toronto Blue Jays - Dave Stieb

Kansas City Royals - Amos Otis
Texas Rangers / Washington Senators - Frank Howard
Chicago White Sox - Harold Baines
Minnesota Twins - Jim Perry
California Angels - Bobby Grich
Seattle Mariners - Jay Buhner
Kansas City A's / Oakland A's - Carney Lansford

Philadelphia Phillies - Richie Allen
Pittsburgh Pirates - Dave Parker
St. Louis Cardinals - Ken Boyer/Jim Edmonds
Chicago Cubs - Mark Grace
Montreal Expos / Washington Nationals - Tim Wallach
New York Mets -Darryl Strawberry

Los Angeles Dodgers / Brooklyn Dodgers - Maury Wills
Cincinnati Reds - George Foster/Vada Pinson
Houston Astros - Jim Wynn
San Francisco Giants/New York Giants - Will Clark
San Diego Padres - Benito Santiago
Atlanta Braves / Milwaukee Braves - Lew Burdette

I would add a few players who don’t line up well with just one team because they performed well for many years: Al Oliver, Bill Madlock, Darrel Evans, Tommy Davis, Reggie Smith, Don Baylor & Joe Carter. Oliver and Madlock should be in the HOF, IMO.

[bn2cardz]

Originally Posted by BradH

Mark-
I would agree with most of your choices, but would say that Alex Rodriguez will ALWAYS be in the Hall of Fame discussion. Whether he gets in or not is another topic, but he - like Pete Rose and others - will always be mentioned simply because of the amazing career he produced (albeit with help).

As a childhood White Sox fan, I’d choose Wilbur Wood over Dick Allen, and maybe make Allen a great choice for the Phils.

In addition to Crandall, a good choice for the Braves would be Ralph Garr.

He also didn't even stick to his own rules about the years... neither did a lot of other people to follow but at least they didn't set the rules.

Originally Posted by darkhorse9

For the purposes of this discussion we keep it to the Topps years (1951 - 1980)

[6-4-3memorabilia]

Originally Posted by bn2cardz

He also didn't even stick to his own rules about the years... neither did a lot of other people to follow but at least they didn't set the rules.

I thought the same thing. Kind of hard to have the Mariners in there when they didn't come to be until 1977 I believe. I also see one person has Jacoby Ellsbury and Tim Lincecum on the list who are still playing and we have no idea what their numbers will be at the end

[T2069bk]

Jay Buhner
Mark Langston
Harold Reynolds
Phil Bradley was entertaining in his time (Although his stats are way lower than I remember)

[kailes2872]

Julio Cruz

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by darkhorse9

There are several players listed that should be considered that people have listed. Gil Hodges, Dale Murphy, Fred Lynn, Rocky Colavito and Dave Parker all certainly have the cred to be in the Hall Of Fame discussion.

I'd add Cooper to your list of players with Hall credibility. Cooper's problem (and the thing ultimately keeping him out of some real serious consideration for the Hall) is that the Red Sox never used him as a full time player. He didn't play more than 125 games in a season until he was 27 years old.

In 1971 and 1972, he only played 26 games. Ok, he was still pretty young then (21 & 22 years of age). Figure he gets another 50 games played if the Sox have him on any kind of fast track towards being a starter.

In 1971, George Scott blocked him. Ok, Scott was a really good player.
In 1972, a guy named Danny Cater blocked him. This guy sucked. He hit .237 with 8 HR and 39 RBI in just under 100 games.
In 1973 and 1974, Carl Yastrzemski was at first.
In 1975, they used Cooper at DH, and kept Yaz at first. Interesting to me, as Cooper was a young guy, and a future Gold Glover at first base. One would think Yaz being DH would have been the best use of the future Hall of Famer. Keep him fresh for those at bats.

Anyway, Cooper hit .311 with 14 HR and 44 RBI in 1975 in 106 games (305 at bats). A player on the rise, right? He only played 123 games the next season before being traded. He was immediately a star in his first season as a starter in Milwaukee, hitting .300 with 20 HR and 78 RBI. His 193 hits were 6th best in the American League. But you had to figure that while in Boston, he should have played at least another 340 games. Two full years of his prime lost. Then, the 1981 strike cost him another 51 games.

Look at his 162 game averages for his career (which take into consideration the last few years of his career when his abilities had eroded:

628 at bats, 86 runs, 187 hits, 35 doubles, 6 triples, 21 home runs, 96 RBI.

All in all, he missed about 3 years in his prime.

Add in another 258 runs scored.
Add in another 561 hits.
Add in another 105 doubles.
Add in another 18 triples.
Add in another 63 home runs.
Add in another 288 RBI.

He's not a lock for the Hall, and he's likely never voted in on the regular ballot. But if these are his career numbers, he merits some real consideration from the veteran's committee down the road. And remember, I'm just adding in his career averages, not his averages during his prime. So the following numbers are a little low.

.298 career average
1,270 runs scored
2,753 hits
520 doubles
65 triples
304 home runs
1,413 RBI

He probably wins another Gold Glove, and another Silver Slugger. Maybe wins a batting title. There's no telling what he could have done if his career hadn't gotten underway so late.

I'll tell you what, though. He was one of my favorite players to watch. Coop had a sweet swing. He was smooth in the field. And the man was clutch. He had more big RBIs than any other hitter I've ever seen. Baseball Reference says he is a career .307 hitter with runners in scoring position, and a .303 hitter in high leverage situations. I feel those numbers are a little low. Or, they may have really been hurt in his final few seasons. Because between 1979 and 1983, his 535 RBI were the most by any hitter in the Major leagues. His 162 game averages those 5 peak years were sensational:

.320 AVG
103 runs scored
212 hits
42 doubles
28 home runs
120 RBI
341 total bases
.876 OPS

Pretty darned good.


Coooooooooooooooooop!

[the 'stache]

One more thing. The closest I've ever seen to Coop's complete skill set as a first baseman and at the plate is Don Mattingly. Those two men could do it all.

[Tim Fritz]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

One more thing. The closest I've ever seen to Coop's complete skill set as a first baseman and at the plate is Don Mattingly. Those two men could do it all.

I loved watching Coop play as a kid growing up in WI. I just read his WIKI page and they had some interesting tidbits about why he didn't play much in his early Red Sox days. It was probably a good thing for the Brewers, because if the Red Sox had played him more they probably never would have traded him.

One of my fondest childhood memories was jumping up and down with my mom in our living room when he drove in the winning runs in game 5 of the '82 ALCS.

And he had a very cool hitting stance.

[Rich Klein]

Just a note on Danny Cater, the Red Sox felt they "HAD" to play him in 1972 as they had just traded Sparky Lyle for him. Well, we know it was a bad trade, but you have to play some people for political reasons at times.

[nolemmings]

Plus Cater was not a bad player. He once finished second in the league in hitting and had hit .300 for the Yanks in 155 games two years prior. The Bosox platoon strategy just didn't work (plus Cater had some injuries)--although he would rebound to over .300 the following year, again playing only part-time. The guy could hit and seldom whiffed.

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by Tim Fritz

I loved watching Coop play as a kid growing up in WI. I just read his WIKI page and they had some interesting tidbits about why he didn't play much in his early Red Sox days. It was probably a good thing for the Brewers, because if the Red Sox had played him more they probably never would have traded him.

I can't believe I haven't read his Wiki bio before. Pretty interesting, to be sure. You're right, though. If the Red Sox had played him more, we would have never gotten him in Milwaukee. So that was a blessing for us.

Originally Posted by Tim Fritz

One of my fondest childhood memories was jumping up and down with my mom in our living room when he drove in the winning runs in game 5 of the '82 ALCS.

And he had a very cool hitting stance.

You mean this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0W-isKje3Rg



I was in 5th or 6th grade at Bethesda elementary school in Waukesha when this happened. Our teacher Mrs. Trovato was married to a man that worked in the Brewers' front office. It was a really exciting time for all of us, more so because we felt like we were part of the team.

And yeah, Coop had a cool stance. He was just smooth. Very cool at the plate. Like Sal Bando said, "he can beat you with a home run, a flare to left, or a bunt." Cecil had those quick wrists. He could just slap the ball anywhere he wanted it. He reminded me of Rod Carew with how he could do that.

And he could hit it out of the park, too. It's funny. His home runs didn't have the jaw dropping hang time that Stormin' Gorman's did. But he just put some sizzle into that ball, didn't he?

[glynparson]

Cut and Paste your selections:
I am a pretty lenient Hall Guy but I feel all of these fall just short, if I did not list here it is probably because i feel they are hall worthy, or i just forgot them lol. I would not cry if just about anyone from my list made it to be honest.

New York Yankees - David cone
Baltimore Orioles - boog Powell
Boston Red Sox - bill Buckner
Detroit Tigers - lance Parrish
Cleveland Indians - Rocky Colavito
Milwaukee Brewers/Seattle Pilots - Cecil cooper
Toronto Blue Jays - Dave stieb

Kansas City Royals - Brett Saberhagen
Texas Rangers / Washington Senators - Washington: frank Howard Texas: Toby Harrah
Chicago White Sox - dick Allen
Minnesota Twins - kent hrbek
California Angels - Fred Lynn
Seattle Mariners - Alvin Davis
Kansas City A's / Oakland A's - gene tenace

Philadelphia Phillies - bob Boone
Pittsburgh Pirates - al Oliver
St. Louis Cardinals - Keith Hernandez
Chicago Cubs - Mark Grace
Montreal Expos / Washington Nationals - Rusty staub
New York Mets - Darryl Strawberry

Los Angeles Dodgers / Brooklyin Dodgers - Brooklyn:Carl furillo LA: Orel Hershiser
Cincinnati Reds - George foster
Houston Astros - jr Richard
San Francisco Giants/New York Giants - NY: bobby Thompson SF: Will Clark
San Diego Padres - Benito Santiago
Atlanta Braves / Milwaukee Braves -Atlanta : Dale Murphy Milwaukee: Del Crandall

Florida/Miami Marlins: Al Leiter
Tampa Bay Devil Rays: Joel Madden

[Jayworld]

Can't do the whole list (for lack of knowledge about some of the teams), but definitely these:

Cleveland Indians - Len Barker
Texas Rangers - Jim Sundberg
San Diego Padres - Gene Richards