Am I misunderstanding?

[wdwfan]

I wasn't sure where to post this. So if this is the wrong section, please move to wherever it needs to be. Here's the deal...

I'm new to vintage and have been trying to study up on condition, etc. over the past month or 2. Since about mid-summer, I've been trying to buy up a few lots here and there to get me a vintage "trade box" going.

I understand Ex to be middle of the road, which is fine with me. I understand that Ex could mean rough corners or edges, off centered, etc. But I've been under the understand that a card can't be deemed "Ex" if it's got creases.

I always try to buy Ex to NM for my sets and trade boxes. But over the past few transactions (probably 5 or so individual card purchase on ebay), I've had 3 of the cards get here creased. One even had a couple of different creases.

Then in my last 2 trades I've received, cards have been creased. Again, I specifically ask the trader (or check the listing) and buy/trade for Ex. But can cards with creases be Ex? Am I just misinformed on what Ex is? Or are the buyers/traders just overstating the condition of their card?

Any help you can give me on understanding condition on vintage would be appreciated. Thanks in advance.

[Mdmtx]

I would agree that ex can't be creased. In fact a significant crease wouldn't even make vg imo.

[bnorth]

GEM-MT 10 Gem Mint
A PSA Gem Mint 10 card is a virtually perfect card.

Attributes include four perfectly sharp corners, sharp focus and full original gloss. A PSA Gem Mint 10 card must be free of staining of any kind, but an allowance may be made for a slight printing imperfection, if it doesn't impair the overall appeal of the card. The image must be centered on the card within a tolerance not to exceed approximately 55/45 to 60/40 percent on the front, and 75/25 percent on the reverse.

MINT 9 Mint
A PSA Mint 9 is a superb condition card that exhibits only one of the following minor flaws: a very slight wax stain on reverse, a minor printing imperfection or slightly off-white borders. Centering must be approximately 60/40 to 65/35 or better on the front and 90/10 or better on the reverse.

NM-MT 8 Near Mint-Mint
A PSA NM-MT 8 is a super high-end card that appears Mint 9 at first glance, but upon closer inspection, the card can exhibit the following: a very slight wax stain on reverse, slightest fraying at one or two corners, a minor printing imperfection, and/or slightly off-white borders. Centering must be approximately 65/35 to 70/30 or better on the front and 90/10 or better on the reverse.

NM 7 Near Mint
A PSA NM 7 is a card with just a slight surface wear visible upon close inspection. There may be slight fraying on some corners. Picture focus may be slightly out-of-register. A minor printing blemish is acceptable. Slight wax staining is acceptable on the back of the card only. Most of the original gloss is retained. Centering must be approximately 70/30 to 75/25 or better on the front and 90/10 or better on the back.

EX-MT 6 Excellent-Mint
A PSA EX-MT 6 card may have visible surface wear or a printing defect which does not detract from its overall appeal. A very light scratch may be detected only upon close inspection. Corners may have slightly graduated fraying. Picture focus may be slightly out-of-register. Card may show some loss of original gloss, may have minor wax stain on reverse, may exhibit very slight notching on edges and may also show some off-whiteness on borders. Centering must be 80/20 or better on the front and 90/10 or better on the reverse.

EX 5 Excellent
On PSA EX-5 cards, very minor rounding of the corners is becoming evident. Surface wear or printing defects are more visible. There may be minor chipping on edges. Loss of original gloss will be more apparent. Focus of picture may be slightly out-of-register. Several light scratches may be visible upon close inspection, but do not detract from the appeal of the card. Card may show some off-whiteness of borders. Centering must be 85/15 or better on the front and 90/10 or better on the back.

VG-EX 4 Very Good-Excellent
A PSA VG-EX 4 card's corners may be slightly rounded. Surface wear is noticeable but modest. The card may have light scuffing or light scratches. Some original gloss will be retained. Borders may be slightly off-white. A light crease may be visible. Centering must be 85/15 or better on the front and 90/10 or better on the back.

VG 3 Very Good
A PSA VG 3 card reveals some rounding of the corners, though not extreme. Some surface wear will be apparent, along with possible light scuffing or light scratches. Focus may be somewhat off-register and edges may exhibit noticeable wear. Much, but not all, of the card's original gloss will be lost. Borders may be somewhat yellowed and/or discolored. A crease may be visible. Printing defects are possible. Slight stain may show on obverse and wax staining on reverse may be more prominent. Centering must be 90/10 or better on the front and back.

GOOD 2 Good
A PSA Good 2 card's corners show accelerated rounding and surface wear is starting to become obvious. A good card may have scratching, scuffing, light staining, or chipping of enamel on obverse. There may be several creases. Original gloss may be completely absent. Card may show considerable discoloration. Centering must be 90/10 or better on the front and back.

FR 1.5 Fair
A PSA Fair 1.5 card's corners will show extreme wear, possibly affecting framing of the picture. The surface of the card will show advanced stages of wear, including scuffing, scratching, pitting, chipping and staining. The picture will possibly be quite out-of-register and the borders may have become brown and dirty. The card may have one or more heavy creases. In order to achieve a Fair grade, a card must be fully intact. Even though the card may be heavily worn, it cannot achieve this grade if it is missing solid pieces of the card as a result of a major tear, etc. This would include damage such as the removal of the back layer of the card or an entire corner. The centering must be approximately 90/10 or better on the front and back.

PR 1 Poor
A PSA Poor 1 will exhibit many of the same qualities of a PSA Fair 1.5 but the defects may have advanced to such a serious stage that the eye appeal of the card has nearly vanished in its entirety. A Poor card may be missing one or two small pieces, exhibit major creasing that nearly breaks through all the layers of cardboard or it may contain extreme discoloration or dirtiness throughout that may make it difficult to identify the issue or content of the card on either the front or back. A card of this nature may also show noticeable warping or another type of destructive defect.

[swarmee]

You are correct. Excellent means no creases and normally light corner wear. Your trade partners may need to be reminded before they send you subpar cards.
It could have a surface wrinkle, which is a crease on the front or back that doesn't go all the way through the card, but some people think those max out at VG-EX.
Centering can be independent of condition. Most people will say their cards are NM with OC or MC for miscut.

[midmo]

I'd recommend to just ask the seller/trader if there are any creases, surface wrinkles, etc that can't be seen in the photos before making a transaction.

[toledo_mudhen]

Been looking at cards Raw, TPG, and TPG submission returns for lots of years and have come to following conclusions :

1.) ANY issues with card (stain, crease, wrinkle, really bad centers, miscut, corners that aren't sharp) puts the cap at VG-EX - Period

2.) It is not possible for a normal human to correctly assess 10 out 10 raw cards as NRMT - So I dont acknowledge the 7 (NRMT) designation on anything raw that I buy or sell

3.) EX & EXMT - this is where all of the good looking raw cards reside.

EX cards should have nice corners (maybe very slight dings on corners) and good centers and most normal persons would think they should grade higher.

EXMT cards are truly high end examples of EX and most normal persons would try and call them as NRMT

So once you resign yourself to the fact that you cant accurately grade a card as NRMT (or above) - and cards with issues aren't ever any better than VG-EX then the opinion grading process becomes much easier and for the most part you wont ever be disappointed on TPG submissions and occasionally you will get a few back that grade better than your initial assessment.

So there you have it - a 3 step process - really easy

[JollyElm]

Most sellers, especially on ebay, overgrade their cards. We all know it, but at least there are pictures present, so you can see the corners and what not and judge each card for yourself. When not-visible-in-the-scan factors (such as creases) are present, there is no way in heck they should be calling a card EX. That is just plainly ridiculous and most likely a blatant attempt to screw you over.

[iwantitiwinit]

Don't buy raw cards.

[BruceinGa]

Originally Posted by iwantitiwinit

Don't buy raw cards.

+1

[wdwfan]

I don't deal with the whole 'graded' thing and will only buy raw. Unless of course, it's a big name RC like Clemente or Koufax or something. I might consider buying raw then. But otherwise, it's raw for me.

Never bought graded, never sold graded. Don't want anything to do with graded.

Originally Posted by iwantitiwinit

Don't buy raw cards.

[savedfrommyspokes]

Originally Posted by iwantitiwinit

Don't buy raw cards.

Between a quarter to a third of the PSA 5 and 6 52 Topps cards I possess have some sort of small crease, albeit "just" a wrinkle.

I get when buying raw lots singles on ebay that even the most reputable sellers may miss one small crease or wrinkle out of a large number of cards. It happens.

But what I do not understand are how some of these ebay sellers can continue to sell raw EX cards which consistently have small creases/wrinkles and not get dinged via feedback and lose business......unless now a days most buyers simply just accept EX as the new VG-EX.

I have bought a fair number of raw lots advertised as "EX or better" and "crease free" only to receive a lot where the majority of cards come with small creases/wrinkles. Typically the seller in a case like this gets defensive, makes some excuses and says in so many words "tough". My next response is will you be providing the return label or is ebay. I can never seem to decide if describing a crease riddled lot/single card as EX is just the seller being oblivious or it is intentional.


End rant.

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by midmo

I'd recommend to just ask the seller/trader if there are any creases, surface wrinkles, etc that can't be seen in the photos before making a transaction.

This. If the card arrived creased after you've been told it wasn't you can simply return as the card did not arrive as described.

[wdwfan]

I will be doing it from now on. What I've been doing is just asking if the card is Ex to NM because that's what I look for. I never though creased would be considered Ex, but I guess some people do.

From now on, though, I'll be asking if there's any creases, bends, etc in the card.

With the few I've gotten thus far (about 6-8), I've just put them in my set and marked that number as needing an upgrade. I'll just leave the creased ones in there for now then pick up a better copy later and toss the creased one.

Originally Posted by midmo

I'd recommend to just ask the seller/trader if there are any creases, surface wrinkles, etc that can't be seen in the photos before making a transaction.

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

This. If the card arrived creased after you've been told it wasn't you can simply return as the card did not arrive as described.

[midmo]

Then there's times like last night when I sent a seller a message asking about issues and by the time I saw his response the card had already sold. You can't win em all.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by iwantitiwinit

Don't buy raw cards.

LOL....Ex cards shouldn't have a crease.

[ls7plus]

Originally Posted by wdwfan

I don't deal with the whole 'graded' thing and will only buy raw. Unless of course, it's a big name RC like Clemente or Koufax or something. I might consider buying raw then. But otherwise, it's raw for me.

Never bought graded, never sold graded. Don't want anything to do with graded.

Unless you have the opportunity to examine raw cards in person and a loupe to carefully examine the cards, especially the edges (scrupulously avoiding those with razor sharp edges or corners pinched at the top, indicating the card has been put through a paper mill/press, enlarged and then cut back to size with corner defects removed to simulate a NrMt or better appearance), buying raw cards, notably expensive ones, is indeed a practice to be avoided, especially if the card's retention or appreciation of value means anything to you. The card doctors are still out there, even with graded cards (I recently saw a 1907 Wolverine News Ty Cobb rookie--with significant surface markings to establish there was no doubt whatsoever that it was the same card-- go from SGC poor to SGC Ex when someone was able to remove some light writing from the low end of the card without SGC detecting it), but buying graded does offer some significant assurance of authenticity and thus acceptance in the marketplace.

Just some words to the wise,

Larry

[rhettyeakley]

Originally Posted by iwantitiwinit

Don't buy raw cards.

Good luck with this, my collection wouldn't be 1/100th what it is today if I lived by these words.

You have gotten some good advice here. The one thing I would add is to just simply point out that (in regards to Pre-WW2 cards) EX is actually a pretty high grade.

I personally tend to think of an 5 (EX) pre-war card the same way I think of a 7 to 7.5 (NM to NM+) post-war vintage card. It in many cases is about as nice of a card as one can possibly expect to find for some issues-- even more true when you take out the Goudey, Play Ball and a few other sets that have survived in better condition than the norm for the era.

[Touch'EmAll]

Have fun with the raw cards, if you like. However, life as we know it today in this hobby often deals with graded cards. Anything you might call close to "investment" type, you might want to consider purchasing graded. Its no fun to pony up for a nice raw card, then someday later realize its not quite what you thought.

[Stampsfan]

A card with a crease just isn't very Excellent...