CU Thread on Shilling Dealer

[smtjoy]

http://forums.collectors.com/message...hreadid=790326

I just wanted to post this up here from the CU boards to give a heads up for anyone looking to bid on any of their lots- mainly postwar but some prewar.
You be the judge if this is shilling or not but those zero feedback accounts with 200 bids on only the dealers lots are hard to ignore. Plus them relisting items soon after the other accounts won them is pretty blatant.

[ChiefBenderForever]

Is this the ex major leaguer doing this ?

[AndyG09]

I dumped a ton of my modern stuff at with this seller a few years ago. The place quite a huge warehouse full of modern wax boxes and cases, game bats, sets, really anything you could imagine. An absolute ton of stuff. They moved stuff around with a forklift on pallets. It was a cool operation. I remember seeing the guy in the lobby on their Ebay page. I never realized he was bidding on their own stuff.

[Bosox Blair]

Thanks for the heads-up...and this is a longtime dealer...interesting.

Cheers,
Blair

[chaddurbin]

their response in that thread:

A response from Kruk,

"You have evidence of shill bidding on our accounts? That's surprising, because that is not something we do at all.

Steve


- krukcards"

good enough for me...

and john kruk is too dumb to shill bid, or be a baseball tv analyst.

[calvindog]

Steve seems truly surprised by the accusations. I'm sure it's just a minor misunderstanding.

[glchen]

A lot of negative feedbacks including another that claims shill bidding.

[ethicsprof]

many thanks for sharing.

best,
barry

[D. Bergin]

I have no idea if this is true or not but it seems pretty odd that the key piece of evidence that gets harped on over there is the re-listing of a lot of modern cards.

Kruk has pallets full of a lot of this crap.

Are these alleged shills winning these lots? If so it doesn't make sense because Kruk would have to pay Ebay their share every time this happened and risk taking another loss each time they relisted the same item they are allegedly shilling.

I could also see a lot of flea market and show dealers using them as a source for material, explaining several bidders with recent bid histories of mainly Kruk based bids.

I guess it would all be cleared up if Ebay just made the bidding histories public. Some bidders are just strange. I had one guy bid on one of my auctions last week and retract the bid minutes later and listed the reason as "wrong amount"...........and then he never put another bid in. I was worried it might look like a shill from the outside looking in. If the bids were all made public it would make me feel better, as somebody trying to go about things as honestly as possible.

Makes me defensive every time I read somebody make the broad stroke argument that ALL sellers must be shilling because they couldn't possibly sell something on Ebay at below market value..........which is crap. I've sold plenty of stuff at supposed below market value. It comes with the territory that an item on Ebay with a 7-10 day window is usually going to sell for less then what somebody has it priced in a store setting and has it sitting there for months or years on end, waiting for the "right" buyer to come along.

On the other hand, if they ARE shilling, then burn 'em I guess.

[Bosox Blair]

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

(1) Are these alleged shills winning these lots? If so it doesn't make sense because Kruk would have to pay Ebay their share every time this happened and risk taking another loss each time they relisted the same item they are allegedly shilling.

(2) Makes me defensive every time I read somebody make the broad stroke argument that ALL sellers must be shilling because they couldn't possibly sell something on Ebay at below market value..........which is crap. I've sold plenty of stuff at supposed below market value. It comes with the territory that an item on Ebay with a 7-10 day window is usually going to sell for less then what somebody has it priced in a store setting and has it sitting there for months or years on end, waiting for the "right" buyer to come along.

Regarding point #1, I think the scam is that if the shill actually wins (not what the seller is going for ideally) then the seller can try a couple things. First, he can contact the underbidder to offer a "second chance" saying that the winner has bailed out. Since the shill has flushed out the very top limit of the underbidder, the seller can try to get the absolute max out of the card. If nobody will bite, the seller reports it to Ebay as a non-paying buyer, and I believe then pays no fees on the listing.

Regarding point #2, I don't think the hunt for shills involved looking for sales below the real market value - quite the opposite. On the other hand, there is the prospect that for certain cards with a limited number of transactions, a fake high bid recorded distorts what people view as the market price, making a subsequent sale of the same or similar card possible at a higher price (even if it is still below the shill price recorded).

Cheers,
Blair

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by chaddurbin

their response in that thread:

A response from Kruk,

"You have evidence of shill bidding on our accounts? That's surprising, because that is not something we do at all.

Steve


- krukcards"

good enough for me...

and john kruk is too dumb to shill bid, or be a baseball tv analyst.

I am sure they both enjoy a cheap buffet

[BleedinBlue]

CU just killed the thread on Kruk Cards. I wonder if they threatened legal action?

[bobbyw8469]

Joe O says "never get cheated".....how ironic....

[Leon]

Originally Posted by BleedinBlue

CU just killed the thread on Kruk Cards. I wonder if they threatened legal action?

It might have got pulled because of a Cease and Desist letter from a lawyer, but CU probably should know better than to be threatened by that. It would be rare, if ever, that they would be liable for what someone says on their board. Sometimes a threat will make folks cave in though. No one, except lawyers, likes legal action.

[vintagechris]

Originally Posted by Leon

It might have got pulled because of a Cease and Desist letter from a lawyer, .

Or maybe they are large submitters to PSA.

[bh3443]

During a conversation with two friends that are collectors/dealers like me, we were talking about how we have never won a single item from Kruk, ever.

Years back we all bought cards from Kruk at decent prices and we agreed that their customer service was great.

How sad it is when things change for the worse. Just our opinion!

[vintagechris]

Originally Posted by bh3443

During a conversation with two friends that are collectors/dealers like me, we were talking about how we have never won a single item from Kruk, ever.

Consider it a blessing. IMO, they are some of the worse over graders out there.
They will be more than happy to give you a refund if you complain, but all that means is they make their money on people who don't take the time to complain.

[Teamsets4u]

Since the link is gone I do not know the whole story but I am going to add my $0.02.
I doubt he is schilling the modern cards.
I have won many auction from Kruk cards.
Some of the items more than once.
I know they have truck loads of it and I have won at the lower end of the prices that the same items have sold for.
I will continue to bid on their items when they help me.

[mintacular]

My completely random thoughts on Kruk...

I met them at the national a couple years ago near the closing time. The youngish Kruk was manning the booth and as I was leaving the exit I noticed their booth and made a comment such as "I know you, I bought 'x' from your store on eBay, etc." I then tried to ask how they come across their such large inventory and the guy basically blows me off, dismisses my Q. He is clearly interested in packing up rather than talking to me. Bad customer service, I haven't bought since.

On the issue of shilling--this is a very serious accusation against anyone. I am NOT an expert at reading "bid histories" and figuring out if shilling has occurred. I would say it must be hard to prove. There are alot of casual collectors that might get lost on eBay, save a couple of large sellers (like Kruk) and perhaps only bid on their items rather than navigate thru the eBay web. That is why I get nervous when someone accuses those of "shilling" b/c buyer "x" might just bid with that seller 80% of the time simply out of convenience.Also, I did buy and got a great deal on a lot from Kruk so that makes me suspicious they have a shill operation (of course this is a tiny sample size).

I would think a large seller might be tempted to shill (it would be so easy to pull off) but would also be equally cautious that if the info got out they would be killed...At the end of the day, it really comes down to integrity of the owners and I can only hope that Kruk is run by 100% honest guys that would not tolerate this shilling activity...

[bobbyw8469]

Notice the bidder with "83" feedback bidding on Kruk's card...96% activity with only Kruk, and was the underbidder in EVERY genre of card....modern...vintage....didn't matter.....

[glynparson]

A good friend of mine bought a 1979-80 OPC Hockey set from Kruk carsd out of SCD in 1998 or 1999. He described the Gretzky to me over the phone and I told him it was fake. Went to see the card at his work and I was 100% correct. They deal enought to have known without a doubt the card was fake. I mean I could tell it without even looking at it. They did give my friend a full refund including return shipping, not that that means anything as that is what all smart crooks do.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

Notice the bidder with "83" feedback bidding on Kruk's card...96% activity with only Kruk, and was the underbidder in EVERY genre of card....modern...vintage....didn't matter.....

That's all you need to know. Fraud. If Kruk wants to sue me, they know where to find me.