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  #51  
Old 06-04-2019, 07:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fballguy View Post
Sounds like he's pointing the finger away from PSA...talking only about the "actors" who submit. What about the "actors" who graded them? How does that get explained?
This is the first thing that hit me as well...

Everyone who's been wondering whether it is

A. Incompetence

or

B. Favorable Grading to preferred customers

Got nothing answered. Zero explanation for the hundreds of glaring mistakes they've recently made (likely thousands before this is put to bed). Why would we continue to put our faith in this company, with a pathetic canned "pass the buck" response like that? Written by some faceless attorney who doesn't give a crap about what's right, or the state of the hobby. Screw them.

Last edited by perezfan; 06-04-2019 at 07:23 PM.
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  #52  
Old 06-04-2019, 07:19 PM
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Originally Posted by ejharrington View Post
Is PWCC considered the seller or the auctioneer?
That's for them to pass the buck down to the consignor. Except I bet those PayPal accounts are bone dry.
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  #53  
Old 06-04-2019, 07:21 PM
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I would have liked to be the fly on the wall in that conversation between Mr Sloan and Mr Huigens.

This pretty much sums it up. PSA stands by their process. Go through the red tape for any concerns. customerservice@collectors.com business as usual.
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  #54  
Old 06-04-2019, 07:22 PM
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I started sending links of the recent scandal(s) to the major holders of CLCT stock today. It really bothers me that people are making a profit based on high grading fees (and will not stand behind the product). Everyone should contact the principals of these organizations and let them know what they are holding.

Top Institutional Holders
Holder Shares Date Reported % Out Value
Renaissance Technologies, LLC 726,863 Mar 30, 2019 7.95% 12,734,639
Dimensional Fund Advisors LP 333,701 Mar 30, 2019 3.65% 5,846,441
North Star Investment Management Corp 302,325 Mar 30, 2019 3.30% 5,296,734
Vanguard Group, Inc. (The) 293,803 Mar 30, 2019 3.21% 5,147,428
Sterling Capital Management LLC 202,090 Mar 30, 2019 2.21% 3,540,616
Dalton, Greiner, Hartman, Maher & Company 194,472 Mar 30, 2019 2.13% 3,407,149
Royce & Associates LP 180,575 Mar 30, 2019 1.97% 3,163,674
Pembroke Management, LTD 138,337 Mar 30, 2019 1.51% 2,423,664
FMR, LLC 132,366 Mar 30, 2019 1.45% 2,319,052
Wells Fargo & Company 130,498 Mar 30, 2019 1.43% 2,286,324
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  #55  
Old 06-04-2019, 07:23 PM
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Maybe they'll rent PWCC's booths at the National to set up a refund line.
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SGC: Closed auto authentication business
JSA: Approved same T206 Autos before SGC
Oh, what a difference a year makes.
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  #56  
Old 06-04-2019, 07:25 PM
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Do Dave Forman and SGC have it in them to step up their game and win some business away from PSA at this point?
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  #57  
Old 06-04-2019, 07:29 PM
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Mr. Chow's hand is getting worn out by all these half-assed statements.
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  #58  
Old 06-04-2019, 07:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dwinters View Post
I started sending links of the recent scandal(s) to the major holders of CLCT stock today. It really bothers me that people are making a profit based on high grading fees (and will not stand behind the product). Everyone should contact the principals of these organizations and let them know what they are holding.

Top Institutional Holders
Holder Shares Date Reported % Out Value
Renaissance Technologies, LLC 726,863 Mar 30, 2019 7.95% 12,734,639
Dimensional Fund Advisors LP 333,701 Mar 30, 2019 3.65% 5,846,441
North Star Investment Management Corp 302,325 Mar 30, 2019 3.30% 5,296,734
Vanguard Group, Inc. (The) 293,803 Mar 30, 2019 3.21% 5,147,428
Sterling Capital Management LLC 202,090 Mar 30, 2019 2.21% 3,540,616
Dalton, Greiner, Hartman, Maher & Company 194,472 Mar 30, 2019 2.13% 3,407,149
Royce & Associates LP 180,575 Mar 30, 2019 1.97% 3,163,674
Pembroke Management, LTD 138,337 Mar 30, 2019 1.51% 2,423,664
FMR, LLC 132,366 Mar 30, 2019 1.45% 2,319,052
Wells Fargo & Company 130,498 Mar 30, 2019 1.43% 2,286,324

LOL, I find it funny that the largest holder is a quant fund. That's what you get for straying from fundamental investing.
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  #59  
Old 06-04-2019, 07:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Exhibitman View Post


Mr. Chow's hand is getting worn out by all these half-assed statements.
That is just the best post I ever saw on this board. LOL (and crying)...
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  #60  
Old 06-04-2019, 07:33 PM
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Default the most unbelievable line

"[PSA] will not let isolated acts from a few dishonest actors deter consumer confidence in our brand."

Ummm...aren't you the ones people are largely relying on and paying to deter the dishonest actors? Do that and maybe people will have confidence in the brand. Can't make this stuff up.
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  #61  
Old 06-04-2019, 07:33 PM
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Both PWCC and PSA are going to be at the Long Beach Coin Expo Thursday-Saturday. I'm sure that I'll give thanks to PWCC.
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  #62  
Old 06-04-2019, 07:36 PM
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PSA's live Facebook video day is tomorrow: early with Vintage Breaks, followed soon after by Rico Petrocelli's show. We'll see if they show up to those before claiming they'll be at a small show right now.
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SGC: Closed auto authentication business
JSA: Approved same T206 Autos before SGC
Oh, what a difference a year makes.
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  #63  
Old 06-04-2019, 07:40 PM
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Sloan is living in fantasyland. Yup, we should just trust him to handle this privately like we trusted him to grade our cards privately and then rely on the results the same way. A fraction of the people who have been directly impacted by this are probably even aware as to what has transpired so doing this his way will result in a very small percentage of cards getting returned for refunds. Well unfortunately for Mr. Sloan I'm pretty certain this time is going to be different and this is not going to get swept under the rug like it has in the past.

I can assure you lawyers are actively searching for plaintiffs to file lawsuits against PSA and others and they will be forced to turn over entire lists of cards submitted by the offending parties so that everyone impacted has an opportunity to be made whole. And then, whether it's found to be $1 or millions of dollars that need to be paid back, I suspect the courts or law enforcement will then determine who has liability for what and the chips will fall as they may.

And while it's mighty nice of you to pass the buck to the "few dishonest actors," perhaps it might be a better idea to look in the mirror and ask why at best your graders were completely incapable of stopping much of this? Why were you continuing to accept cards from known fraudsters? And finally why, if you "take consumer protection seriously" are you forcing people to sue you to get the lists of all cards submitted by Moser and PWCC instead of releasing it yourself? We are spending upwards of $5000 per card to rely on you to catch these folks and instead you chose to cash our checks and laugh. I'll be very surprised if you'll be laughing for long.
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  #64  
Old 06-04-2019, 07:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Goudey77 View Post
I would have liked to be the fly on the wall in that conversation between Mr Sloan and Mr Huigens.

This pretty much sums it up. PSA stands by their process. Go through the red tape for any concerns. customerservice@collectors.com business as usual.
I'm guessing that you're way off on that one.
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  #65  
Old 06-04-2019, 07:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
Do Dave Forman and SGC have it in them to step up their game and win some business away from PSA at this point?
Do you really believe there are no doctored cards in SGC holders?
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  #66  
Old 06-04-2019, 07:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rdwyer View Post
Back in the day, I was privileged to enter the "Vault" at GAI. I was there to educate the authenticator of cigarette packs per Steve Rochi's request. I was shown the process of grading cards. The first thing they always did was measure the card. Doesn't make any sense to do anything else after that if the card was trimmed because the card would be graded authentic. They then looked for altering. Same thing, doesn't make any sense to do anything else after that if the card was altered because the card would be graded authentic.. Then they look at the centering, corners. etc. And further evaluated the card for printer defects, creases, etc.

So how is it that PSA could skip the first part of the process for all those trimmed cards unless it was deliberate? I know that GAI was doing the same, and that their opinion on cards today are worthless. But still they had a procedure.
According to their website, they're not skipping it. It says so right here.

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  #67  
Old 06-04-2019, 07:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CuriousGeorge View Post
Sloan is living in fantasyland. Yup, we should just trust him to handle this privately like we trusted him to grade our cards privately and then rely on the results the same way. A fraction of the people who have been directly impacted by this are probably even aware as to what has transpired so doing this his way will result in a very small percentage of cards getting returned for refunds. Well unfortunately for Mr. Sloan I'm pretty certain this time is going to be different and this is not going to get swept under the rug like it has in the past.

I can assure you lawyers are actively searching for plaintiffs to file lawsuits against PSA and others and they will be forced to turn over entire lists of cards submitted by the offending parties so that everyone impacted has an opportunity to be made whole. And then, whether it's found to be $1 or millions of dollars that need to be paid back, I suspect the courts or law enforcement will then determine who has liability for what and the chips will fall as they may.

And while it's mighty nice of you to pass the buck to the "few dishonest actors," perhaps it might be a better idea to look in the mirror and ask why at best your graders were completely incapable of stopping much of this? Why were you continuing to accept cards from known fraudsters? And finally why, if you "take consumer protection seriously" are you forcing people to sue you to get the lists of all cards submitted by Moser and PWCC instead of releasing it yourself? We are spending upwards of $5000 per card to rely on you to catch these folks and instead you chose to cash our checks and laugh. I'll be very surprised if you'll be laughing for long.
Well said. And it isn't just Moser, not even close. They know who the card doctors are. How could they not, they are at the center of the hobby and the names of these guys are widely known. And it's more than a "few."
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Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 06-04-2019 at 08:18 PM.
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  #68  
Old 06-04-2019, 07:50 PM
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Do you really believe there are no doctored cards in SGC holders?
Of course not. But at this point I believe that overall they are better at this than PSA. The stuff identified on BO is in my opinion the tip of a very large iceberg of doctored cards in PSA holders. But we'll never know for sure if this is their response. WIWAG redux. Same response to a far more serious problem. The burden is on us.
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Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 06-04-2019 at 08:18 PM.
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  #69  
Old 06-04-2019, 07:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oldjudge View Post
Do you really believe there are no doctored cards in SGC holders?
Absolutely not. But SGC is currently not in the cross-hairs.
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  #70  
Old 06-04-2019, 07:54 PM
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I wonder if SGC was at the top of the grading mountain would they be in the same @#$%storm that PSA is in?
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  #71  
Old 06-04-2019, 07:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
Well said. And it isn't just Moser, not even close. They know who the card doctors are. And it's more than a "few."
Seems like a good time to name names. Call it the Colon Blow hobby cleanse. People are reading this thread and no longer want to sit on the sidelines.
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PWCC: The Fish Stinks From the Head
PSA: Regularly Get Cheated
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JSA: Approved same T206 Autos before SGC
Oh, what a difference a year makes.
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  #72  
Old 06-04-2019, 07:59 PM
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Originally Posted by JeremyW View Post
I wonder if SGC was at the top of the grading mountain would they be in the same @#$%storm that PSA is in?
Since there's almost no profit incentive in sending cards to SGC (compared to PSA and BGS), SGC will be largely unscathed from this scandal.

They were the smartest people by shuttering the auto authentication arm, either by chance or by intention.
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PWCC: The Fish Stinks From the Head
PSA: Regularly Get Cheated
BGS: Can't detect trimming on modern
SGC: Closed auto authentication business
JSA: Approved same T206 Autos before SGC
Oh, what a difference a year makes.
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  #73  
Old 06-04-2019, 08:04 PM
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Quote:
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Mr. Chow's hand is getting worn out by all these half-assed statements.
Chow just never gets old
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  #74  
Old 06-04-2019, 08:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JeremyW View Post
I wonder if SGC was at the top of the grading mountain would they be in the same @#$%storm that PSA is in?
Of course it is true. I think all TPGs are equally competent (or incompetent). In a way, PSA is a victim of their own success. If SGC cards were trading at a premium in the market Im sure the majority of the doctored cards would have been submitted to and graded by them.
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  #75  
Old 06-04-2019, 08:10 PM
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Absolutely not. But SGC is currently not in the cross-hairs.

Guess all those bad t206 autos just got brushed under the carpet.
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  #76  
Old 06-04-2019, 08:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oldjudge View Post
Of course it is true. I think all TPGs are equally competent (or incompetent). In a way, PSA is a victim of their own success. If SGC cards were trading at a premium in the market Im sure the majority of the doctored cards would have been submitted to and graded by them.
Jay maybe so, it's a hard hypothetical to test.
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  #77  
Old 06-04-2019, 08:11 PM
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Originally Posted by oldjudge View Post
Of course it is true. I think all TPGs are equally competent (or incompetent). In a way, PSA is a victim of their own success. If SGC cards were trading at a premium in the market Im sure the majority of the doctored cards would have been submitted to and graded by them.
You're probably right, but I've always given SGC more credit for the 19th Century cards.
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  #78  
Old 06-04-2019, 08:14 PM
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IMO the best customer-focused action that PSA could do at this point would be to publish all the certification numbers (or tag them via the certification verification) of cards submitted by or on behalf of known card doctors.

I believe they owe that to their customers, i.e., those who have supported their brand.

Edited to add that I emailed this request to Messrs. Orlando and Sloan
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  #79  
Old 06-04-2019, 08:14 PM
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I watched the hour long video & thought it was all B.S. He tried to stick up for PSA about not being able to see alterations. I think it's called CYA.
I dont know about CYA. From what I saw on The Wire and Breaking Bad, when you may be charged with a cime or a lawsuit, you should definitely NOT talk for 60 minutes on the record.
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  #80  
Old 06-04-2019, 08:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
Jay maybe so, it's a hard hypothetical to test.
It would be fun to watch SGC cards start to command higher prices than PSA, but that won't happen any time soon. It is possible though.

Last edited by JeremyW; 06-04-2019 at 08:17 PM.
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  #81  
Old 06-04-2019, 08:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scotgreb View Post
IMO the best customer-focused action that PSA could do at this point would be to publish all the certification numbers (or tag them via the certification verification) of cards submitted by or on behalf of known card doctors.

I believe they owe that to their customers, i.e., those who have supported their brand.
They might need to buy new bandwidth to publish such a list. It would be, IMO, stunningly long. But I agree, the current posture is wholly inadequate.
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  #82  
Old 06-04-2019, 08:18 PM
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Originally Posted by scotgreb View Post
IMO the best customer-focused action that PSA could do at this point would be to publish all the certification numbers (or tag them via the certification verification) of cards submitted by or on behalf of known card doctors.
This is another thing I've emailed them a few days ago. Maybe I missed my calling as a lawyer.

Quote:
John Rafferty
Thu, May 30, 11:39 AM (5 days ago)
to Betsy, Steve

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1296884
Well, the shit just hit the fan. I'd like PSA to remove all these cert numbers from their pop report; you can wait until next week when the Set Registry deadline is over.
It's also a great idea to remove all the cert numbers from the cracked cards from the registry as well. Feel free to give me a call if you need additional advice.
Thanks!
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PSA: Regularly Get Cheated
BGS: Can't detect trimming on modern
SGC: Closed auto authentication business
JSA: Approved same T206 Autos before SGC
Oh, what a difference a year makes.
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  #83  
Old 06-04-2019, 08:21 PM
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You're probably right, but I've always given SGC more credit for the 19th Century cards.
Who is better, the economist who predicted two of the last four recessions or the economist who predicted six of the last four recessions?
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  #84  
Old 06-04-2019, 08:24 PM
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This is another thing I've emailed them a few days ago. Maybe I missed my calling as a lawyer.
I am guessing Sloan did not respond to any of your emails or you would have posted the responses.
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  #85  
Old 06-04-2019, 08:27 PM
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Who is better, the economist who predicted two of the last four recessions or the economist who predicted six of the last four recessions?
The latter. More accuracy.
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  #86  
Old 06-04-2019, 08:29 PM
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The latter. More accuracy.
I think that's right. 2/3 as opposed to 1/2
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  #87  
Old 06-04-2019, 08:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
I am guessing Sloan did not respond to any of your emails or you would have posted the responses.
He and Betsy (copied both of them each time) stopped responding on May 7th. But no, I wasn't planning on posting them even if they did. Don't mind posting ones I sent them.
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PWCC: The Fish Stinks From the Head
PSA: Regularly Get Cheated
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Oh, what a difference a year makes.
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  #88  
Old 06-04-2019, 08:32 PM
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Originally Posted by swarmee View Post
He and Betsy (copied both of them each time) stopped responding on May 7th. But no, I wasn't planning on posting them even if they did. Don't mind posting ones I sent them.
Gods do not answer letters I guess.
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  #89  
Old 06-04-2019, 08:35 PM
Fuddjcal Fuddjcal is offline
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Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
Jesus the day I agree 100 percent with David, something must be wrong.
agreed. I guess we're not all that different after all? That we have a very low threshold for complete scammers in the hobby we all love(d). I've loved it on and off my entire life and this PWCC scam is neither fun nor funny, IMHO. Thanks Brent Mastro!, Thanks PSA!

I do try to stand up for I feel is right and fight authority whenever I can. PWCC has been on my s*** list but now you can add PSA to the list of companies I'm hating on right now after that very weak response. Just pathetic. My fake crap is going into the attic immediately right next to my fake autographed photos and fake baseballs. I'm done. What I have I have and not 1 more PERIOD!

I am done talking about it which will make many of you very joyous (especially Leon)

The last thing I do for the hobby and my fellow collectors will be to get the
F Face cards made for the National.

Last edited by Fuddjcal; 06-04-2019 at 08:38 PM.
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  #90  
Old 06-04-2019, 08:38 PM
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Originally Posted by oldjudge View Post
Of course it is true. I think all TPGs are equally competent (or incompetent). In a way, PSA is a victim of their own success. If SGC cards were trading at a premium in the market Im sure the majority of the doctored cards would have been submitted to and graded by them.
Just my personal opinion, but like I have said numerous times, I think SGC does a far better job at grading than PSA does?

I'd also go out on a limb and say, with regards to the T206 sig scandal, that it was likely one guy who authenticated the majority of those, and I would assume he is no longer employed?
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  #91  
Old 06-04-2019, 08:47 PM
hcv123 hcv123 is offline
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Originally Posted by Republicaninmass View Post
Guess all those bad t206 autos just got brushed under the carpet.
Nothing to help people forget about a scandal like a BIGGER scandal!!



Quote:
is well-versed in combating fraud
Perhaps it was a typo - combating-committing?
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  #92  
Old 06-04-2019, 09:04 PM
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This guy made a nice post over at the PSA message board. Looks like some of their guys are reading this board, and think we're being too harsh.

Those guys should read more threads and see how involved PSA is in this scandal.

The other thing I'm not thrilled with is that this is posted on only one of their message boards, and you have to click and scroll around on the site to even find it. Despite how weak it is, it needs to be plastered on the FRONT PAGE of their website in that center slot, so that everyone who visits the site can read it.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg graygator.jpg (62.0 KB, 490 views)
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PWCC: The Fish Stinks From the Head
PSA: Regularly Get Cheated
BGS: Can't detect trimming on modern
SGC: Closed auto authentication business
JSA: Approved same T206 Autos before SGC
Oh, what a difference a year makes.

Last edited by swarmee; 06-04-2019 at 09:07 PM.
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  #93  
Old 06-04-2019, 09:11 PM
Aquarian Sports Cards Aquarian Sports Cards is offline
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Originally Posted by JeremyW View Post
I wonder if SGC was at the top of the grading mountain would they be in the same @#$%storm that PSA is in?
DING DING DING we have a winner. Of course the doctors are going through PSA and to a lesser degree Beckett (for modern). That's where top dollar is. SGC's position saved them in this case.
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  #94  
Old 06-04-2019, 09:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards View Post
DING DING DING we have a winner. Of course the doctors are going through PSA and to a lesser degree Beckett (for modern). That's where top dollar is. SGC's position saved them in this case.
But would they have caved into the corruption of passing obviously corrupted cards along to their registry people?
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  #95  
Old 06-04-2019, 09:24 PM
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It would be fun to watch SGC cards start to command higher prices than PSA, but that won't happen any time soon. It is possible though.
Or maybe old-style PSA flips will become more in vogue, since those were submitted over 10 years ago before this was going on?
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  #96  
Old 06-04-2019, 09:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oldjudge View Post
Who is better, the economist who predicted two of the last four recessions or the economist who predicted six of the last four recessions?
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Originally Posted by JeremyW View Post
The latter. More accuracy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
I think that's right. 2/3 as opposed to 1/2
Is there a joke in there or a reference that I'm not getting? 6 of the last 4 recessions? Did you mean 4 of the last 6 recessions?
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  #97  
Old 06-04-2019, 09:43 PM
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Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy View Post
Is there a joke in there or a reference that I'm not getting? 6 of the last 4 recessions? Did you mean 4 of the last 6 recessions?
He means the economist predicted 6 but there were only 4.
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  #98  
Old 06-04-2019, 09:43 PM
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Through all this the PWCC banner ad remains up.
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  #99  
Old 06-04-2019, 09:44 PM
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Default Unconvincing Attempt at Damage Control

The scariest thing about the PSA statement is how much effort they put into trying to convince us that the virus is contained and will be eradicated — without any explanation as to what the cure is — by suggesting that it’s an “isolated act” and not an absolute plague on the hobby. Even Exxon had better statements after the Valdez oil spill.

Congratulations for rejecting “thousands of altered and counterfeit cards . . . each year.” If you reject thousands of altered cards and you encapsulate thousands of altered cards you’re doing about as well as a coin flip.

What exactly is “[y]our on-going investments in grading and holder technology”?
The “lighthouse logo” now acts more like a traditional lighthouse, alerting oncoming collectors to rocky shores beneath the glow. Never mind that if you lock a trimmed card in Fort Knox, all you’ve managed to do is protect a trimmed card. The seatbelt is somewhat less helpful after the crash.

“[i]solated acts from a few dishonest actors”? The bubonic plague requires humans to be isolated so that the disease doesn’t spread. These acts were the opposite — the were intentionally socialized, designed to spread altered cards into all of our collections. You can isolate as many actors as you want today, but the damage already done has extremely far-reaching, and invasive effects. These cards are in all of our collections, and they stain the good ones with an unwashable air of doubt and uncertainty.

“Rest assured that PSA will not let the actions of a few have any lingering impact on the hobby or the PSA brand.” You’ll forgive me if I’m not feeling all that reassured by this statement. How are you going to clean up the spill?
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Last edited by T206Collector; 06-04-2019 at 09:48 PM.
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  #100  
Old 06-04-2019, 09:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scooter729 View Post
Or maybe old-style PSA flips will become more in vogue, since those were submitted over 10 years ago before this was going on?
Who says it wasn't?
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