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  #101  
Old 06-03-2019, 12:03 AM
jfkheat jfkheat is online now
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I just saw this posted on Facebook. I don't know if it has been posted here.

http://www.sportscardradio.com/gary-...E1HC8J1wLRDR2A
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  #102  
Old 06-03-2019, 12:07 AM
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What are the odds that a year from now, there is a significant change to the viability of PSA and/or PWCC as a company? Is this a bump in the road, or the beginning of a major change in the hobby? Will card prices continue to rise, especially for higher grade examples, or will we see a bear market? I think it all hinges on any legal proceedings and prosecution of the guilty.
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  #103  
Old 06-03-2019, 12:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cdogstu99 View Post
Iím buying puts on CLCT tomorrow.

I can see this leading to PSA needing to repurchase altered cards that are likely worth a fraction of their original value.

Even if they werenít in cahoots with PWCC, it has been proven that their grading capabilities are horrendous. Reputation completely tarnished with a high likelihood that their future grading revenues decline significantly.

And if they were in cahoots, this ship is going to sink even quicker.


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I think youíll find that CLCT options have bid/ask spreads wide enough to navigate a VLCC through and, even with those spreads, the volumes available are really small.
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  #104  
Old 06-03-2019, 05:50 AM
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Most investors will avoid like the plague because they as a whole, I know I do despise uncertainty…… Too many big-time people own big cards in their holders PSA will be fine…… Short term glitch yes correct Correction in the market? I can see that big time…… Best time to buy is when the prices tank…… Verify first then trust… Until court in plastic holders pay me a quarterly dividend I will avoid

Last edited by Johnny630; 06-03-2019 at 05:51 AM.
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  #105  
Old 06-03-2019, 06:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Huigens View Post
We are obviously very aware of the issues surrounding the cards submitted to us by Gary Moser (how could we not be, with all the threads on Blowout). First, we want to apologize to all those who have been affected by (us being caught with) the purchasing of trimmed or altered cards. We are not disappearing or burying our heads in the sand about this (since we have or will be contacted by law enforcement). Next, we are presently working with both PSA and law enforcement (who contacted us and made indicated it would be in our best interest to cooporate) to ensure that all affected cards are brought to light and this information makes its way to our customers. We understand that we (were caught and) are responsible for our part in this mess and will do all that we can (as far as we HAVE to) to make it right in connection with Moser-submitted cards as well as other submitters who may have altered cards of which we auctioned. We understand how difficult it is to be patient through this process (because heck, the wheels of justice grind slowly) but we are working through this as quickly as we can (because heck, the wheels of justice grind slowly) at the direction of counsel and the appropriate authorities (re all previous comments). Finally, in response to these recent findings (and knowing a full investigation is coming and for damage control as best we can at this point), we are no longer selling any Moser-submitted cards (though we may decide to continue selling cards submitted by others, including those we might not be able to "prove" were submitted by someone else on Moser's behalf).

We are very sorry for the trouble that has occurred (that we find ourselves in) and will work to regain your trust (gullibility).
Is my parsing of the statement (in bold) about right?
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  #106  
Old 06-03-2019, 06:50 AM
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Nice try, but how many people have been screwed buying this crap. This will now have a hard impact on the hobby. You turned into a greedy pig and I hope you go to lockup for it. Your a disgrace.
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  #107  
Old 06-03-2019, 06:53 AM
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For the non-lawyers here is the statement translated from legalese.

"Nobody will work harder than me to find the killer." -- O.J. Simpson

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  #108  
Old 06-03-2019, 07:07 AM
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This!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snapolit1 View Post
If I sell house and donít tell the buyer there was six feet of water in the basement of the house last year that is not a crime. If I signed a disclosure document affirmatively saying there was never a flood at the house that could be a crime.
If someone can point me to a law saying that the seller of a collectible needs to disclosure any alterations done to the card prior to the sale Iím all ears.

Not justifying this just wondering what law enforcement is up to. If they are up to anything.
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  #109  
Old 06-03-2019, 07:11 AM
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So if nothing potentially illegal occurred why is Brent working with law enforcement? Your wishful thinking doesn't change the scope of the law which several here have explained.
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  #110  
Old 06-03-2019, 07:13 AM
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I didn't say nothing illegal occured. Why not just answer the question, counselor?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
So if nothing potentially illegal occurred why is Brent working with law enforcement? Your wishful thinking doesn't change the scope of the law which several here have explained.
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  #111  
Old 06-03-2019, 07:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leon View Post
I didn't say nothing illegal occured. Why not just answer the question, counselor?
How many times do I have to say it. Mail fraud and wire fraud. 18 USC 1341 and 1343.
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  #112  
Old 06-03-2019, 07:17 AM
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I am not a lawyer but this doesn't seem to fit those statutes. Try again. No one committed fraud if they didn't do anything illegal? Still no answer and I am all ears as Steve and some others are. No one is saying this is good. But how can you say someone is guilty of mail fraud or wire fraud when they didn't do anything illegal. Trimming a card isn't illegal. Doing it AND saying you didn't would be.

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Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
How many times do I have to say it. Mail fraud and wire fraud. 18 USC 1341 and 1343.
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  #113  
Old 06-03-2019, 07:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leon View Post
I am not a lawyer but this doesn't seem to fit those statutes. Try again. No one committed fraud if they didn't do anything illegal? Still no answer and I am all ears as Steve and some others are. No one is saying this is good. But how can you say someone is guilty of mail fraud or wire fraud when they didn't do anything illegal. Trimming a card isn't illegal. Doing it AND saying you didn't would be.
It is illegal to use the mail or wires to commit fraud. Selling something while intentionally misrepresenting or concealing a material fact is fraud. Doing it repeatedly is a scheme to defraud. I can't do this over and over. If you think you know the law better than I do, that's fine, I really don't care at this point honestly.
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  #114  
Old 06-03-2019, 07:34 AM
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Default Oregon State Consumer Protection Laws

Let’s start here:

“The Oregon Department of Justice is committed to ensuring a fair and safe market place. If you feel you’ve been taken advantage of, there are steps you can take — both online and on the phone.”

Report “scams & fraud” here:

https://www.doj.state.or.us/consumer...t-scams-fraud/

Right now there do not appear to be any consumer complaints filed against PWCC. We can all fix that by clicking the link above.
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Last edited by T206Collector; 06-03-2019 at 07:38 AM.
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  #115  
Old 06-03-2019, 07:37 AM
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There was no material misrepresentation and no fraud unless the trimmer said he didn't do it. Trimming a card isn't illegal. Sending a trimmed card through the mail isn't illegal. You can quit now.

I am not condoning any of this mess I am just not sensing the strong case you think there is UNLESS there is some paper trail evidence that comes about. I expect there very well could be. But you are the lawyer. I guess we will see. I hope heads do roll for whomever is committing fraud. And I think this whole debacle sucks and is bad for the hobby short term and good for it long term.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
It is illegal to use the mail or wires to commit fraud. Selling something while intentionally misrepresenting or concealing a material fact is fraud. Doing it repeatedly is a scheme to defraud. I can't do this over and over. If you think you know the law better than I do, that's fine, I really don't care at this point honestly.
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Last edited by Leon; 06-03-2019 at 07:37 AM.
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  #116  
Old 06-03-2019, 07:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leon View Post
There was no material misrepresentation and no fraud unless the trimmer said he didn't do it. Trimming a card isn't illegal. Sending a trimmed card through the mail isn't illegal. You can quit now.

I am not condoning any of this mess I am just not sensing the strong case you think there is UNLESS there is some paper trail evidence that comes about. I expect there very well could be. But you are the lawyer. I guess we will see. I hope heads do roll for whomever is committing fraud. And I think this whole debacle sucks and is bad for the hobby short term and good for it long term.
I'm done. You're not listening and or you don't understand. I'm not debating the law with non-lawyers any more. If you think you know the law better than I do, God bless.
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Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 06-03-2019 at 07:44 AM.
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  #117  
Old 06-03-2019, 07:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
I'm done. You're not listening and or you don't understand. I'm not debating the law with non-lawyers any more. If you think you know the law better than I do, God bless.
You keep directing us to these Codes. We're not lawyers, but we're not stupid either. The act to which these Codes applies has to be illegal. We're just questioning if the act (doctoring) is legal or not?

We're not question the morality of it, just the legality of it.

In other words, at what point does it become an illegal activity? It is illegal to trim a card? Is it illegal to send that card in for grading? If it receives a numeric grade, is it illegal to sell it? At which point, which one of these steps, does it become illegal and how?

Last edited by vintagetoppsguy; 06-03-2019 at 07:58 AM.
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  #118  
Old 06-03-2019, 07:56 AM
griffon512 griffon512 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leon View Post
There was no material misrepresentation and no fraud unless the trimmer said he didn't do it. Trimming a card isn't illegal. Sending a trimmed card through the mail isn't illegal. You can quit now.

I am not condoning any of this mess I am just not sensing the strong case you think there is UNLESS there is some paper trail evidence that comes about. I expect there very well could be. But you are the lawyer. I guess we will see. I hope heads do roll for whomever is committing fraud. And I think this whole debacle sucks and is bad for the hobby short term and good for it long term.
for us non-lawyers the following two links explain peter's point:

1) very simple (look at questions 47-50): https://quizlet.com/56869821/chapter-13-flash-cards/

2) more comprehensive if one is looking for a greater understanding: https://guide.iacrc.org/the-basics-o...investigators/
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  #119  
Old 06-03-2019, 07:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy View Post
You keep directing us to these Codes. We're not lawyers, but we're not stupid either. The act to which these Codes applies has to be illegal. We're just questioning if the act (doctoring) is legal or not?

We're not question the morality of it, just the legality of it.

In other words, at what point does it become an illegal activity? It is illegal to trim a card? Is it illegal to send that card in for grading? If it receives a numeric grade, is it illegal to sell it. At which point, which one of these steps, does it become illegal and how?
Last time. It's not the doctoring itself, it's the fraudulent selling of a doctored card, or participating in a scheme to do so, using the mail and or the wires. Fraud is the knowing misrepresentation or concealment of a material fact.
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Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 06-03-2019 at 08:04 AM.
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  #120  
Old 06-03-2019, 08:03 AM
griffon512 griffon512 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
Last time. It's not the doctoring itself, it's the fraudulent selling of a doctored card, using the mail and or the wires to do so. Fraud is the knowing misrepresentation or concealment of a material fact.
where, as alluded to before, fraudulent is this:

Legal Definition of Scheme Or Artifice To Defraud
www.lectlaw.com/def2/s003.htm
SCHEME OR ARTIFICE TO DEFRAUD. A scheme or artifice to deprive another of the intangible right of honest services. 18 USC; Any plan or course of action intended to deceive others, and to obtain, by false or fraudulent pretenses, representations, or promises, money or property from persons so deceived.
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  #121  
Old 06-03-2019, 08:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
Last time. It's not the doctoring itself, it's the fraudulent selling of a doctored card, using the mail and or the wires to do so. Fraud is the knowing misrepresentation or concealment of a material fact.
So, by your answer, if its sold using mail or wire it's illegal, but if they sold them it shows it wouldn't be illegal? Yeah, that makes sense.
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  #122  
Old 06-03-2019, 08:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy View Post
So, by your answer, if its sold using mail or wire it's illegal, but if they sold them it shows it wouldn't be illegal? Yeah, that makes sense.
He got you there, Pete!
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  #123  
Old 06-03-2019, 08:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy View Post
So, by your answer, if its sold using mail or wire it's illegal, but if they sold them it shows it wouldn't be illegal? Yeah, that makes sense.
I didn't draft the statutes, David, they are what they are. There are jurisdictional limitations on the reach of federal law. Other laws might apply to your situation.
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Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 06-03-2019 at 08:07 AM.
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  #124  
Old 06-03-2019, 08:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by griffon512 View Post
where, as alluded to before, fraudulent is this:

Legal Definition of Scheme Or Artifice To Defraud
www.lectlaw.com/def2/s003.htm
SCHEME OR ARTIFICE TO DEFRAUD. A scheme or artifice to deprive another of the intangible right of honest services. 18 USC; Any plan or course of action intended to deceive others, and to obtain, by false or fraudulent pretenses, representations, or promises, money or property from persons so deceived.
Understood. But some could argue that it's not fraud if it improved the condition of the card as some truly believe. See my example above. If I re-wire a house because it has old, faulty wiring and then sell the house, do I have to disclose that it was re-wired? Do I have to disclose other upgrades? Do you not see where I'm coming from?

I guess what I'm saying is that Moser, Brent or whoever could argue that the customer wasn't deceived, but instead they were done a favor by improving the condition of the card.

Last edited by vintagetoppsguy; 06-03-2019 at 08:09 AM.
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  #125  
Old 06-03-2019, 08:08 AM
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Failing to disclose a material fact is fraud by non-disclosure, also known as fraudulent concealment. You don't have to affirmatively lie by saying something that isn't the truth. Failing to speak may also be fraud. I think that may be part of the disconnect.

If you trim a card, get it by the graders (which seems to be much easier that I had previously thought it might be) and either consign it to be sold or sell it directly yourself as worth whatever numerical grade it was given, that is fraud. The numerical grade is a material fact upon which the buyer based their decision to pay $XXX.00 for it upon. If you trimmed it (or knew it was trimmed) you have committed fraud by non-disclosure because you knew it didn't deserve a numerical grade. You have a duty to disclose that, plain and simple. Every time. If you use the mails or wires as part of your selling scheme, you get to look at mail or wire fraud.

Last edited by Kenny Cole; 06-03-2019 at 08:10 AM.
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  #126  
Old 06-03-2019, 08:09 AM
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What Peter is trying to say is that federal mail and wire fraud statutes donít cover the entirety of all criminal fraud statutes.
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  #127  
Old 06-03-2019, 08:19 AM
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I'd be stunned if this goes anywhere criminally. But I am not a criminal attorney. The board has a really good one, and it ain't me.

In a similar vein, let's see if anyone goes after Boeing criminally after a few hundred thousand scathing articles in the press and a few planes dropping out of the sky.

Last edited by Snapolit1; 06-03-2019 at 08:19 AM.
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  #128  
Old 06-03-2019, 08:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy View Post
While what they're doing is unethical, Im not so sure it's against the law. They're representing it as it is certified to be. If (insert any TPG here) says it's a (insert grade here) and they're selling it as such, not sure they're breaking any law. Let me be clear for all. I'm not justifying it, I just don't see how they're legally (key word) misrepresenting it. Wouldn't their defense in court be that they paid for a 3rd party opinion and that third party is supposed to label altered cards as such? That they were expecting the TPG to label it as such?
I do...It's knowingly duping people out of their money. It's the same thing that Mastro did, and did jail time for. Hence the name Brent mastro. Are you guys kiddin or just taking the asses point or just moronic? Pretty laughable you don't think its a crime to steal money from people. To each there own. "Youre not justifying it what a tra la la goon D A

Last edited by Fuddjcal; 06-03-2019 at 08:31 AM.
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  #129  
Old 06-03-2019, 08:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuddjcal View Post
I do...It's knowingly duping people out of their money. It's the same thing that Mastro did, and did jail time for. Hence the name Brent mastro. Are you guys kiddin or just taking the asses point or just moronic? Pretty laughable you don't think its a crime to steal money from people. To each there own. "Youre not justifying it what a tra la la goon D A
Nice Bugs Bunny reference. A+

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxGgnI6kCrs

Last edited by calvindog; 06-03-2019 at 08:34 AM.
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  #130  
Old 06-03-2019, 08:32 AM
Fuddjcal Fuddjcal is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by calvindog View Post
What Peter is trying to say is that federal mail and wire fraud statutes donít cover the entirety of all criminal fraud statutes.
thanks for helping these few gentlemen that are very confused about stealing $$$ from people being criminal.
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  #131  
Old 06-03-2019, 08:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T206Collector View Post
Letís start here:

ďThe Oregon Department of Justice is committed to ensuring a fair and safe market place. If you feel youíve been taken advantage of, there are steps you can take ó both online and on the phone.Ē

Report ďscams & fraudĒ here:

https://www.doj.state.or.us/consumer...t-scams-fraud/

Right now there do not appear to be any consumer complaints filed against PWCC. We can all fix that by clicking the link above.
Now Leon's a lawyer and this is all fine a good. Thanks Leon. I thought you were better than that.
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  #132  
Old 06-03-2019, 08:37 AM
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Nice spin, Chuck. None of us were defending their actions or questioning the morality of it. We were questioning the legality of it.

In another thread I was willing to give 4:1 odds that says Brent is not indicted. Wanna take that bet? Got balls, or are you dickless?
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  #133  
Old 06-03-2019, 08:39 AM
griffon512 griffon512 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy View Post
Understood. But some could argue that it's not fraud if it improved the condition of the card as some truly believe. See my example above. If I re-wire a house because it has old, faulty wiring and then sell the house, do I have to disclose that it was re-wired? Do I have to disclose other upgrades? Do you not see where I'm coming from?

I guess what I'm saying is that Moser, Brent or whoever could argue that the customer wasn't deceived, but instead they were done a favor by improving the condition of the card.
if it comes to it, they can argue whatever they want...a spade is still a spade...or at least it should be if shown to be

re: this: "could argue that the customer wasn't deceived, but instead they were done a favor by improving the condition of the card."

"deception" and "favor" are not mutually exclusive, nor does the law say they have to be to show fraud i would imagine. in other words, if an act is fraudulent whether it is determined to be beneficial does not make it something other than fraud...that would be my layman's assumption at least.

Last edited by griffon512; 06-03-2019 at 08:41 AM.
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  #134  
Old 06-03-2019, 08:47 AM
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Default Oregon State Law

The reason you need the interstate commerce piece -- mail and wire, etc. -- is to get into Federal jurisdiction. But, you can sue civilly or file a criminal complaint against PWCC relying on Oregon State Law (ORS 687.011):

"Fraud or misrepresentation" means knowingly giving misinformation or a false impression through the intentional misstatement of, concealment of or failure to make known a material fact or by other means.

Here's a direct link for filing an on-line complaint (notice that the website contemplates that you can file the complaint from any state, not just Oregon):

OREGON DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE Consumer Protection Fighting Fraud.


https://justice.oregon.gov/consumercomplaints/

There is a space for identifying the entity you are complaining about if it is a website, as opposed to a brick and mortar shop.
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  #135  
Old 06-03-2019, 09:03 AM
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Quit being so dramatic. I am no lawyer I am just having a discussion.

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Now Leon's a lawyer and this is all fine a good. Thanks Leon. I thought you were better than that.
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  #136  
Old 06-03-2019, 09:03 AM
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Some of you guys have a really short memory. Remember the Joseph Pankiewicz threads? Cards going from 7s to 10s? Whatever came of that? Other than being exposed, nothing. If you're not sure what I'm referring to, just search this site by that name.

Same thing will happen in this case. Nothing. I keep repeating it, but most don't want to hear it. The grading companies are in on it. It's all fixed. I alluded to that over 5 years ago (post 429 in the thread below). Still the same 5 years later. Nothing changed, nothing will change. Most are focusing on the wrong parties involved instead of focusing on PSA. Until the focus is put on PSA, nothing changes. One thing I can say is that Brent has posted a few times about this subject. How many times has PSA posted? And that's all good. Keep ignoring PSA's involvement and using their service and buying their cards. We'll have this same conversation in another 5 years when another doctor is caught.

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?p=1274471
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  #137  
Old 06-03-2019, 09:12 AM
1952boyntoncollector 1952boyntoncollector is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy View Post
So, by your answer, if its sold using mail or wire it's illegal, but if they sold them it shows it wouldn't be illegal? Yeah, that makes sense.
Laws like that are actually common. The legislators figure the people that can sell through the mail have 1000s of more potential customers that someone that has to have someone show up at a show. So they are trying to catch the bigger players. Not saying there are loopholes are that it isnt silly but thats the justification of that conflict...
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  #138  
Old 06-03-2019, 09:13 AM
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I think most here would be happy if Brent and Moser went to prison and were paid a visit by "Bubba" every night. I don't blame you if that's how you feel. But let's say that does happen. Problem solved? No! For every Moser that's caught, there is another to take his place. You guys just don't get that. As long as the doctors can get numeric grades on doctored cards, it's going to continue to happen. So the problem isn't with the doctors, it's with the TPGs. If they did their job, none of these threads would even exist, right? Sorry you don't want to see PSA take the fall and the value of your cards take a hit, but that's what's going to have to happen to see change occur. Otherwise we can continue to have these same old tiring discussions year after year.
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  #139  
Old 06-03-2019, 09:14 AM
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David I am hopeful the magnitude of this will make a difference, but like you I am far from confident in the outcome.
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  #140  
Old 06-03-2019, 09:14 AM
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It's sad to see so many essentially sticking up for the trimmers. A couple articles

First, when it becomes acceptable to use a nonsense story about "I didn't know" and what happens after.
https://www.wweek.com/news/courts/20...-it-heres-how/


And the "is it really a crime" thing...Ö

https://www.autoblog.com/2019/02/07/...ed-each-night/
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  #141  
Old 06-03-2019, 09:17 AM
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It's sad to see so many essentially sticking up for the trimmers.
Sad to see comprehension of the English language is lost as well. Nobody stuck up for the trimmers.
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  #142  
Old 06-03-2019, 09:20 AM
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I'll take the bet that Brent is indicted by Jan 1, 2021 or that he turns state's evidence against BGS and/or PSA and one of their principals is indicted. $500
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  #143  
Old 06-03-2019, 09:23 AM
1952boyntoncollector 1952boyntoncollector is offline
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Who actually has been harmed and what cards. Maybe if we had names and cards and saw a growing list of specific harm it would be more tangible.

Maybe im in the minority but everything to me is too vague as to the harm when there arent really any specific victims complaining and what amounts are being alleged...


general market value going down is too vague.

I know it will be hard to identify some true victims but if you cant identify any than it is what it is..
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  #144  
Old 06-03-2019, 09:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swarmee View Post
I'll take the bet that Brent is indicted by Jan 1, 2021 or that he turns state's evidence against BGS and/or PSA and one of their principals is indicted. $500
That wasn't the bet. I will you $500 that Brent is indicted by 1/1/21. Your $500, my $2000. That's the bet if you want it...and I'm actually extending the timeframe in your favor (I originally said within 1 year).
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  #145  
Old 06-03-2019, 09:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy View Post
That wasn't the bet. I will you $500 that Brent is indicted by 1/1/21. Your $500, my $2000. That's the bet if you want it...and I'm actually extending the timeframe in your favor (I originally said within 1 year).
David, Brent has admitted that he is already dealing with law enforcement after about 2 weeks of this. Youíre making like this is Monty Python and thatís just a flesh wound. Who knows what happens next? Does he roll on Moser? Anyone at PSA? If he does and they have issues and he just has to pay back a small fortune in restitution but doesnít get indicted, does that make you a winner in the bet? Iím not sure youíre clearly seeing whatís going on here. 2 weeks in and already law enforcement involved. This time is different.
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  #146  
Old 06-03-2019, 09:43 AM
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You can take my bet or not. No harm. It didnt look like you thought PSA would get damaged in this.
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  #147  
Old 06-03-2019, 09:46 AM
36GoudeyMan 36GoudeyMan is offline
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There is NO doubt that PWCC is engaging in a criminal activity. I'm a lawyer with 40 years experience, including RICO cases. But so what? We shut down a dealer and someone else becomes the outlet for fraudulently altered cards. It becomes Whack-A-Mole.

The bigger issue is TPG authentication of clearly altered cards. The blessing/imprimatur of TPG authentication is a public statement that the card is, in fact (not opinion), unaltered (inasmuch as TPGs have categorization ability for altered cards). Is the TPG is unaware of the alteration, then its competence has to be questioned, and its exposure to "buy back"guarantees must be disclosed publicly, if it is a publicly-traded company. If it knows of the alterations and authenticates it anyway, it is engaged in fraud and a conspiracy to commit fraud by use of instrumentalities of interstate commerce.

I am not generally considered an hysteric. Most of you have no clue who I am, or care, and that's fine. However, this is a really, really huge issue, and implicates the SEC and FTC in their regulatory powers over TPGs. I say this with all due caution: this scandal can destroy this hobby. Everyone who has any affection for this universe of collectibles needs to start demanding public accountability. File complaints with the SEC (CLCT, etc.), and the FTC, before this becomes so pervasive and rampant (or has it already) that there is no dependable collectability of these treasures any longer.
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  #148  
Old 06-03-2019, 09:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swarmee View Post
You can take my bet or not. No harm. It didnt look like you thought PSA would get damaged in this.
I think PSA is going to be very damaged from this. At some point the directors of their parent CLCT are presumably going to have to put out a statement to alert shareholders because the losses to them are potentially massive and theyíre holding an 800K reserve.
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  #149  
Old 06-03-2019, 09:51 AM
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Relatedly I have thought and mentioned that if analysts became interested, due to the loss reserve implications or otherwise, PSA would have a harder time ignoring them than it historically has had ignoring collectors (see WIWAG scandal).
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  #150  
Old 06-03-2019, 09:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 36GoudeyMan View Post
There is NO doubt that PWCC is engaging in a criminal activity. I'm a lawyer with 40 years experience, including RICO cases. But so what? We shut down a dealer and someone else becomes the outlet for fraudulently altered cards. It becomes Whack-A-Mole.

The bigger issue is TPG authentication of clearly altered cards. The blessing/imprimatur of TPG authentication is a public statement that the card is, in fact (not opinion), unaltered (inasmuch as TPGs have categorization ability for altered cards). Is the TPG is unaware of the alteration, then its competence has to be questioned, and its exposure to "buy back"guarantees must be disclosed publicly, if it is a publicly-traded company. If it knows of the alterations and authenticates it anyway, it is engaged in fraud and a conspiracy to commit fraud by use of instrumentalities of interstate commerce.
I am not generally considered an hysteric. Most of you have no clue who I am, or care, and that's fine. However, this is a really, really huge issue, and implicates the SEC and FTC in their regulatory powers over TPGs. I say this with all due caution: this scandal can destroy this hobby. Everyone who has any affection for this universe of collectibles needs to start demanding public accountability. File complaints with the SEC (CLCT, etc.), and the FTC, before this becomes so pervasive and rampant (or has it already) that there is no dependable collectability of these treasures any longer.
Thank you!

Brent/Moser going to jail or not does not stop the problem. As long as TPGs continue to assign numeric grades to altered cards, this will continue. Like I said a few posts above, people need to hold PSA accountable, even if it does have an impact on the value of their collection.
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