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  #1  
Old 09-02-2018, 04:16 PM
griffon512 griffon512 is offline
James
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Default Help Request Re: Background Info on 1888 Boston Baseball Club Trade Card, $100 Reward

Hello All,

This is a long, link heavy post. I’m requesting help in the hopes of getting an item encapsulated by PSA. In order to encapsulate the item PSA needs to do due diligence, as the item is very rare. I have provided a lot of due diligence to PSA, but they are requiring more, which is where my request comes in. If PSA encapsulates the item, I will send $100 to whomever (or a charity of their choosing) provides me the “most helpful” background information addressing PSA’s request. Most helpful will be determined at my sole discretion, but there will be a winner as long as the item is encapsulated. Here is a link to the item (pictures are at the bottom, sorry for the sideways back image, not sure how to fix):
https://memorylaneinc.com/site/bids/...e?itemid=46052. It is a trade card, different in substance and size than a lithographic print. Trade cards became very popular as an advertising medium in the 19th Century. Perhaps the most famous baseball trade card in the 19th Century is the 1869 Red Stockings Peck & Snyder trade card. Depictions of King Kelly, John Clarkson, and Harry Wright, among others, are included in the 1888 Boston Baseball Club trade card, making it one the neater 19th Century items I have come across (I'm biased).

This is a quote from a PSA representative regarding the information they need to encapsulate the item:

“We could not find suitable information beyond the REA links as to why the various sizes exist or what other manufacturers may have used the same image from G.H. Hastings [the photographer of this image used in lithographic prints and trade cards].
During this Era – advertisers would use the same image to display their ad’s, in this case it was for Cigar’s. Various ads from different manufacturers may exist and we simply do not have the information even given the links from REA or Memory Lane. We need documentation explaining the differences in sizes/manufacturers.”

Listed below are links I provided to PSA to help them with their research.

https://www.robertedwardauctions.com...display-print/

https://www.robertedwardauctions.com...display-print/

https://www.robertedwardauctions.com...display-print/

https://www.robertedwardauctions.com...display-print/

Hunt Auction showing there is one other known John A. Andrews trade card:

https://www.huntauctions.com/live/im...=613&lot_qual=

Mears auction with a John A. Andrews print:

http://sports.mearsonlineauctions.co...-lot63079.aspx

Publication referencing history of John A. Andrews & Co. in Boston:

https://books.google.com/books?id=Vu...cigars&f=false

Library of Congress listing of print:
https://www.loc.gov/resource/ppmsca.18836/
Attached Images
File Type: jpg trade1.jpg (64.9 KB, 299 views)
File Type: jpg trade2.jpg (70.4 KB, 303 views)

Last edited by Leon; 09-02-2018 at 09:04 PM.
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  #2  
Old 09-02-2018, 09:00 PM
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Leon Leon is offline
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There are numerous examples where PSA and SGC won't encapsulate something either first, or something which they don't know a lot about. I think they are overly cautious sometimes but I am not the one on the hook for a bad card that they grade either.
Beckett has done a better job at encapsulating original and rare items. SGC is still my grader of choice as I think they do a very good job at grading vintage, which is all I collect . Of course they advertise here too and that is appreciated. However,I used them long before they started advertising, so I was already a fan.

ps..fixed the pic for ya...
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Last edited by Leon; 09-02-2018 at 09:04 PM.
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Old 09-02-2018, 09:12 PM
griffon512 griffon512 is offline
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thanks for fixing the pic leon!

sgc doesn't have a jumbo holder that they can put this piece into. that leaves psa and beckett -- psa having just introduced jumbo holders at the national. i think psa has more credibility among collectors of 19th century pieces so choosing to go with them. i wouldn't have imagined with all the information i gave to psa that they would be reluctant to encapsulate it without more information, but it is what it is.
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Old 09-02-2018, 10:04 PM
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I’m not sure why PSA is reluctant to slab the trade card, despite their questions. Obviously, Hastings was the source of the art work. They probably sold some prints themselves and also sold the use of the art work in advertising. In this case John Andrews & Co. was their client. My guess is that Hastings printed the trade cards for Andrews for a fee, although I guess it is possible that they were printed by a third party. I would also not be surprised if other similar trade cards with different advertisers turn up. This is really no different that Felix Mendelssohn selling his photographs to be used by various businesses for advertising.
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Old 09-02-2018, 10:29 PM
griffon512 griffon512 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oldjudge View Post
I’m not sure why PSA is reluctant to slab the trade card, despite their questions. Obviously, Hastings was the source of the art work. They probably sold some prints themselves and also sold the use of the art work in advertising. In this case John Andrews & Co. was their client. My guess is that Hastings printed the trade cards for Andrews for a fee, although I guess it is possible that they were printed by a third party. I would also not be surprised if other similar trade cards with different advertisers turn up. This is really no different that Felix Mendelssohn selling his photographs to be used by various businesses for advertising.
I don't really get PSA's reluctance either Jay. By the way, do you know if it was common for photographers or a third party to manufacture both lithographic prints and trade cards using the same image in the 19th Century? Are there other examples you know of? Finally, who on the net54 Board do you feel would be most knowledgeable regarding PSA's questions in case those individuals don't see this thread?
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  #6  
Old 09-10-2018, 04:01 PM
aquarius31 aquarius31 is offline
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That's a great item! There are quit a few 'game in progress' 19th century baseball prints although 3 stand out as having very similar styles.

- 1884 Philadelphia Athletics (Gilbert & Bacon)
- 1888 Boston Baseball Club (Hastings)
- 1889 Boston Baseball Club (G. Waldon Smith)

I can't speak for the 1884 print as I've only seen it in large format (non advertised piece), however the 1888 and 1889 prints come in at few different sizes as follows:

1888 Boston Baseball Club (Hastings)
16.75" x 12" (no advertisement link)
26" x 20" (“John A. Andrews & CO.’s, Boston Club Cigar”...I own this one link)
9.75"x7"("Boston Club Cigar" "John A. Andrews and Co." verso link)

1889 Boston Baseball Club (G. Waldon Smith)
24" x 20" (""The Boston Club Cigars and Tobacco" and "John A. Andrews & Co, Boston Club Cigar” link)
12" x 9" ("Sold exclusively by Jordan, Marsh & Co"...I have this exact print)

Interestingly enough, I can't find any 1889 lithographs that are large format without an advertisement unlike the 1888 print which seems to be the exception. There's clearly a connection with John A. Andrews advertising for both years however the 1889 print confirms that there were other advertisers namely Jordan, Marsh & Co.

The original trade card in question has been reproduced at least once...I know because I recently purchased one from an unknowing seller. If PSA is reluctant, you should confirm that it's due to not understanding why there are varying sizes and advertisers. To a previous point, perhaps there was some exclusivity with John A. Andrews although clearly this was opened up to other advertisers for the 1889 print. They could have promoted it in a number of ways in a storefront, a mailer, a newspaper supplement or some other form to get the word out.

The one other area that perplexes me is that the smaller format trade card is referenced as a 'woodcut'. There are much smarter people on this forum but I'd be very surprised if that's accurate vs some sort of lithograph. If this was a larger format newspaper sized print on thinner stock than I would expect it to be a woodcut but seems odd for smaller format, thicker stock.

Not sure if this helps but my data dump for now.
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  #7  
Old 09-10-2018, 04:44 PM
bgar3 bgar3 is offline
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There is an example of the 1866 Currier and Ives base ball print on a cdv with a Base Ball emporium ad on the back, that was slabbed. I think it sold in REA about 5 years ago.
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Old 09-10-2018, 05:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bgar3 View Post
There is an example of the 1866 Currier and Ives base ball print on a cdv with a Base Ball emporium ad on the back, that was slabbed. I think it sold in REA about 5 years ago.
https://www.robertedwardauctions.com...mes-creighton/

The same graded cdv also sold in 2005 and 2008 via REA
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Last edited by h2oya311; 09-10-2018 at 05:09 PM.
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Old 09-10-2018, 06:39 PM
griffon512 griffon512 is offline
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that's helpful george, thank you.

you mentioned that you purchased a reproduction of the original trade card. do you still own it? if you do, can you post pics and describe why you believe your copy is a reproduction? psa is only questioning the advertising/size on mine.

the item i purchased sold in heritage (the link you provided) before it was resold to me in memory lane. it has "midweight" card stock as mentioned in the heritage auction and the same identifying marks on the back. i'm not sure of the basis for the woodcut reference in the memory lane description, but your explanation makes sense.

Last edited by griffon512; 09-10-2018 at 07:49 PM.
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  #10  
Old 09-10-2018, 06:41 PM
griffon512 griffon512 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by h2oya311 View Post
https://www.robertedwardauctions.com...mes-creighton/

The same graded cdv also sold in 2005 and 2008 via REA
thanks derek and bgar3
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