NonSports Forum

Net54baseball.com
Welcome to Net54baseball.com. These forums are devoted to both Pre- and Post- war baseball cards and vintage memorabilia, as well as other sports. There is a separate section for Buying, Selling and Trading - the B/S/T area!! If you give an opinion of a person or company your full name needs to be in your post. Contact the moderator at leon@net54baseball.com should you have any questions or concerns. Enjoy!
Net54baseball.com
Net54baseball.com
ebay GSB
T206s on Ebay
Pre-WWII Cards
Post WWII Cards
Vintage Memorabilia
Babe Ruth Cards
Ty Cobb Cards
Lou Gehrig Cards
Mickey Mantle Cards
Goudey Cards
Bowman Cards
T205s on Ebay
Tobacco "T" Cards
Caramel "E" Cards
Vintage Baseball Postcards
Football Cards on Ebay
Exhibit Cards
Strip Cards
Baking Cards
Sporting News
Playball Cards on Ebay

Go Back   Net54baseball.com Forums > Net54baseball Main Forum - WWII & Older Baseball Cards > Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 10-14-2018, 09:08 PM
Throttlesteer Throttlesteer is offline
Anson
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Posts: 482
Default Matty Portrait SGC 5 for $4k+

Am I losing my mind, or did this just happen? The insanity continues.
__________________
An$on Lyt!e
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 10-14-2018, 09:34 PM
Rhotchkiss's Avatar
Rhotchkiss Rhotchkiss is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Posts: 1,408
Default

How about the Tinker Hands on knees PSA 6.5 that just went for $4702 (last sale was 7/5/17 for $1778)? All the t206ís in pwcc are nuts tonight.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 10-14-2018, 09:41 PM
Aquarian Sports Cards Aquarian Sports Cards is offline
Scott Russell
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 3,078
Default

it's only a matter of time before this shilling has a massive negative impact on the hobby
__________________
Great experience buying from edjs and mybuddyinc. Check out my ebay store, weird, eclectic, accurate, and reasonable! http://stores.ebay.com/Aquarian-Sports-Cards Also check out http://www.birminghamauctioneers.com
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 10-14-2018, 09:47 PM
3-2-count's Avatar
3-2-count 3-2-count is online now
Tony Andrea
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: AZ
Posts: 1,327
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Throttlesteer View Post
Am I losing my mind, or did this just happen? The insanity continues.

The last two Psa 5 Matty portraits which have sold within the last 6 months ended at $3600 and $3471.

The Sgc 5 which ended tonight @ $4200 was far superior in eye appeal to both of those examples. I'm not surprised!
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 10-15-2018, 07:45 AM
NotVader NotVader is offline
Christina Vader - banned
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Posts: 54
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Throttlesteer View Post
Am I losing my mind, or did this just happen? The insanity continues.
Insanity ?

Is it insane apple stock APL is up 800% since I bought it?

Gold is up up up

T206 cards are a commodity!

CV
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 10-15-2018, 08:51 AM
griffon512 griffon512 is offline
James
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 234
Default

without getting into whether the percentage increases are too high, there is a general shift in the market to eye appeal over grade. the price of the sgc 5 mathewson reflects that.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 10-15-2018, 09:21 AM
frankbmd's Avatar
frankbmd frankbmd is offline
Fr@nk Burke++
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Between the 1st tee and the 19th hole
Posts: 5,798
Default

Itís gotta be the flip.
__________________
FRANK:BUR:KETT - RAUCOUS SPORTS CARD FORUM MEMBER BUT CLEARLY........

GOOD FOR THE HOBBY AND THE FORUM WITH A VAULT IN AN UNDISCLOSED LOCATION


518/1000 Monster Number

Over*760* successful B/S/T transactions completed in 2012-19.
Over 550 sales with satisfied Board members served.
Thank you all.



Now nearly PQ.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 10-15-2018, 10:08 AM
1952boyntoncollector 1952boyntoncollector is offline
ja.ke liebe.rman
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: http://www.psacard.com/PSASetRegistry/alltimeset.aspx?s=175000&ac=1
Posts: 4,524
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards View Post
it's only a matter of time before this shilling has a massive negative impact on the hobby
agreed..silly to compare this to stock prices........how much were clemente 1955 psa 7 rookies 'going' for last year...and a slew of others than magically declined in value even after the stock market went up

Shill...
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 10-15-2018, 10:28 AM
Leon's Avatar
Leon Leon is offline
Leon
peasant/forum owner
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: near Dallas
Posts: 27,459
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector View Post
agreed..silly to compare this to stock prices........how much were clemente 1955 psa 7 rookies 'going' for last year...and a slew of others than magically declined in value even after the stock market went up

Shill...
How come you and Scott say it was a shill when, in post 4, Tony says there are lesser looking examples that only went for a little less? This was not an extraordinarily high price with respect to those? Unless there is more to it, I think ya'll are reckless in this particular case. NO doubt there are consignors or friends and family that shill on ebay (and in AH's auctions) but I would be careful about accusing with no corroborating evidence.
__________________
Leon Luckey
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 10-15-2018, 10:50 AM
clydepepper's Avatar
clydepepper clydepepper is offline
Raymond 'Robbie' Culpepper
Member
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Columbus, GA
Posts: 5,179
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leon View Post
How come you and Scott say it was a shill when, in post 4, Tony says there are lesser looking examples that only went for a little less? This was not an extraordinarily high price with respect to those? Unless there is more to it, I think ya'll are reckless in this particular case. NO doubt there are consignors or friends and family that shill on ebay (and in AH's auctions) but I would be careful about accusing with no corroborating evidence.


Leon- I hope you are right as I'm going after a 'big dog' tonight.
__________________
.
"A life is not important except in the impact it has on others lives" - Jackie Robinson


MY BIG CONCERNS ABOUT AMERICA:

Internally- We spend too much time assuring our rights without learning the responsibilities that should accompany them.
Externally - No matter how much we claim to take the higher moral ground, we have neither respected nor attempted to understand other cultures.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 10-15-2018, 10:59 AM
Aquarian Sports Cards Aquarian Sports Cards is offline
Scott Russell
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 3,078
Default

My comment was more in general, but was irresponsible since it was made in a thread about a specific item.

That being said the two bidders with the most individual bids on the Matty have 52% and 72% of all of their bids with PWCC. Coupled with the fact that these two bidders inched the price up in tandem does cause one (me anyway) concern.

However this is not a knock on Brent, as I am currently pondering how to prevent this kind of thing in my own online auction
__________________
Great experience buying from edjs and mybuddyinc. Check out my ebay store, weird, eclectic, accurate, and reasonable! http://stores.ebay.com/Aquarian-Sports-Cards Also check out http://www.birminghamauctioneers.com
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 10-15-2018, 11:58 AM
100backstroke 100backstroke is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 652
Default Hmm...

Also odd was the ending result bid for the T206 W. Johnson portrait PSA 1.5 that went for $1,650.

On ebay recently a PSA 1 went for $375. And there is currently up on ebay a PSA 2 with BIN for $1,299.99

So, is someone really buying the PSA 1.5 for $1,650. and passing on the PSA 2 for $1,299.99 ?

Last edited by 100backstroke; 10-15-2018 at 11:58 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 10-15-2018, 12:28 PM
boneheadandrube's Avatar
boneheadandrube boneheadandrube is offline
Greg B.
Greg Bish.op
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: South Eastern PA
Posts: 261
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards View Post
My comment was more in general, but was irresponsible since it was made in a thread about a specific item.

That being said the two bidders with the most individual bids on the Matty have 52% and 72% of all of their bids with PWCC. Coupled with the fact that these two bidders inched the price up in tandem does cause one (me anyway) concern.

However this is not a knock on Brent, as I am currently pondering how to prevent this kind of thing in my own online auction

I'm not trying to defend every bidding situation we see on PWCC here, but what you're describing there as tandem bidding is what happens in an auction as a bidding war no? I will sometimes place multiple bids at the end of an auction if it turns out my snipe was set too low, it can be a matter of impulse. I think some folks have that same impulse for the duration of the auction. Its not smart as it can lead to being bid up but I'm sure you've met competitive people who might enjoy doing the back and forth on an item especially if its below market price. Add a hot item into that equation and I'm sure you will find two bidders duking it out in an auction. Why would you want to prevent that in your own online auctions? I don't think that potential consignors with you will find that appealing. Not everyone has the same bidding habits that you might think are normal/traditional.

Whenever an ebay seller has 200-400 T206's listed in an auction on ebay my bidding percentage with them usually ends up above 75% for the duration of the auction as I collect T206. With the amount of advertising PWCC does I'll bet there are more than a few who don't bid on ebay unless its with PWCC, this would raise their percentage.. There are also not that many good cards auctioned as compared to lsited with a high set price, so bidding my be narrowed down to a certain seller when they have a large offering.

If you think about these things objectively you can see reasons for things that might otherwise be red flags. I don't see the price of Matty as crazy either, it went $500 higher than the last one... Just my 2c.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 10-15-2018, 12:49 PM
Bored5000's Avatar
Bored5000 Bored5000 is offline
Eddie S.
Eddie Smi.th
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Fleetwood, Pa.
Posts: 947
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards View Post
My comment was more in general, but was irresponsible since it was made in a thread about a specific item.

That being said the two bidders with the most individual bids on the Matty have 52% and 72% of all of their bids with PWCC. Coupled with the fact that these two bidders inched the price up in tandem does cause one (me anyway) concern.

However this is not a knock on Brent, as I am currently pondering how to prevent this kind of thing in my own online auction
I have not looked at the bidding history on this particular auction, but the percentage of bids with PWCC doesn't really mean much. There are months when I probably have a bidding percentage that high with PWCC, and I have never consigned anything with them or shilled an auction.

The real dubious indicator to look for is bid retractions.
__________________
Flawless BST transactions with Moonlight Graham, Arazi4442, wrestlingcardking and Justus.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 10-15-2018, 01:01 PM
Snapolit1's Avatar
Snapolit1 Snapolit1 is offline
Ste.ve Na.polit.ano
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 2,962
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bored5000 View Post
I have not looked at the bidding history on this particular auction, but the percentage of bids with PWCC doesn't really mean much. There are months when I probably have a bidding percentage that high with PWCC, and I have never consigned anything with them or shilled an auction.

The real dubious indicator to look for is bid retractions.
Two guys trying to top each other. . .trying to bid as little as they can to get it as cheaply as possible as the clock is running out . . . . Isn't that exactly how you figure ALL auctions end on eBay for highly coveted items? I do.

PWCC isn't an auction house where the closing clock gets reset repeatedly.

Last edited by Snapolit1; 10-15-2018 at 01:02 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 10-15-2018, 01:06 PM
3-2-count's Avatar
3-2-count 3-2-count is online now
Tony Andrea
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: AZ
Posts: 1,327
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 100backstroke View Post
Also odd was the ending result bid for the T206 W. Johnson portrait PSA 1.5 that went for $1,650.

On ebay recently a PSA 1 went for $375. And there is currently up on ebay a PSA 2 with BIN for $1,299.99

So, is someone really buying the PSA 1.5 for $1,650. and passing on the PSA 2 for $1,299.99 ?
Curious. What is the eye appeal of the Psa 1 and Psa 2 example you mention? The Psa 1.5 in PWCC last night was stellar for the grade, thus the ending price.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 10-15-2018, 01:46 PM
mechanicalman's Avatar
mechanicalman mechanicalman is online now
Sam Sw@rtz
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 990
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3-2-count View Post
Curious. What is the eye appeal of the Psa 1 and Psa 2 example you mention? The Psa 1.5 in PWCC last night was stellar for the grade, thus the ending price.
I actually took a look at both, and I can certainly understand why someone would pay more for the 1.5 over the 2.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 10-15-2018, 01:48 PM
Aquarian Sports Cards Aquarian Sports Cards is offline
Scott Russell
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 3,078
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snapolit1 View Post
Two guys trying to top each other. . .trying to bid as little as they can to get it as cheaply as possible as the clock is running out . . . . Isn't that exactly how you figure ALL auctions end on eBay for highly coveted items? I do.

PWCC isn't an auction house where the closing clock gets reset repeatedly.
except these two were NOT at the very end. and one of them "string bid" according to Brent's definition about a dozen times advancing the bid up the minimum each time.

No one of these things (bid patterns, frequency with pwcc, etc) is conclusive, but taken as a whole it's at the least suspicious.
__________________
Great experience buying from edjs and mybuddyinc. Check out my ebay store, weird, eclectic, accurate, and reasonable! http://stores.ebay.com/Aquarian-Sports-Cards Also check out http://www.birminghamauctioneers.com

Last edited by Aquarian Sports Cards; 10-15-2018 at 01:48 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 10-15-2018, 02:28 PM
clydepepper's Avatar
clydepepper clydepepper is offline
Raymond 'Robbie' Culpepper
Member
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Columbus, GA
Posts: 5,179
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mechanicalman View Post
I actually took a look at both, and I can certainly understand why someone would pay more for the 1.5 over the 2.


I've noticed that there are more and more lower graded cards selling for big money these days.

The new REA catalog is full of them.

Could it be that Net54's BST has enough clout to change shopping habits?
__________________
.
"A life is not important except in the impact it has on others lives" - Jackie Robinson


MY BIG CONCERNS ABOUT AMERICA:

Internally- We spend too much time assuring our rights without learning the responsibilities that should accompany them.
Externally - No matter how much we claim to take the higher moral ground, we have neither respected nor attempted to understand other cultures.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 10-15-2018, 02:41 PM
mechanicalman's Avatar
mechanicalman mechanicalman is online now
Sam Sw@rtz
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 990
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by clydepepper View Post
I've noticed that there are more and more lower graded cards selling for big money these days.

The new REA catalog is full of them.

Could it be that Net54's BST has enough clout to change shopping habits?
I think you're spot on with your observations.

And I also believe in the premise that N54 has a big influence on pricing trends.
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 10-15-2018, 03:27 PM
1952boyntoncollector 1952boyntoncollector is offline
ja.ke liebe.rman
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: http://www.psacard.com/PSASetRegistry/alltimeset.aspx?s=175000&ac=1
Posts: 4,524
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leon View Post
How come you and Scott say it was a shill when, in post 4, Tony says there are lesser looking examples that only went for a little less? This was not an extraordinarily high price with respect to those? Unless there is more to it, I think ya'll are reckless in this particular case. NO doubt there are consignors or friends and family that shill on ebay (and in AH's auctions) but I would be careful about accusing with no corroborating evidence.
I also am talking generally as well. Not saying for this particular item...also not saying it was on the 1955 clemente...just saying there is history of cards spiking out of nowhere where it may not be as organic as we would like....not saying it happened in this case....also was a reaction when someone was comparing the sales with recent stock prices...so was more of take on not comparing stocks with cards in this genre at this time until there is much more data points and time..

Last edited by 1952boyntoncollector; 10-15-2018 at 03:29 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 10-15-2018, 03:57 PM
griffon512 griffon512 is offline
James
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 234
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards View Post
except these two were NOT at the very end. and one of them "string bid" according to Brent's definition about a dozen times advancing the bid up the minimum each time.

No one of these things (bid patterns, frequency with pwcc, etc) is conclusive, but taken as a whole it's at the least suspicious.
i've never understood the issue with "string bidding." why wouldn't a buyer want to increase the next bid the minimum amount in many auction scenarios assuming there is no bid retraction and the buyer pays? please explain.

as for the price of the matty, t206 prices of iconic hofers are outpacing the market, and the sgc 5 has better eye appeal imo than recent psa 5 sales in the mid 3k range.

we're seeing more examples of sgc cards getting psa prices in popular registry sets based on the eye appeal of the card rather than the grade or tpg company. that's a good thing for the hobby.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 10-15-2018, 04:05 PM
Aquarian Sports Cards Aquarian Sports Cards is offline
Scott Russell
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 3,078
Default

I don't care much about it but PWCC created a policy against it, but they don't enforce their own policies very consistently.
__________________
Great experience buying from edjs and mybuddyinc. Check out my ebay store, weird, eclectic, accurate, and reasonable! http://stores.ebay.com/Aquarian-Sports-Cards Also check out http://www.birminghamauctioneers.com
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 10-15-2018, 04:11 PM
Peter_Spaeth's Avatar
Peter_Spaeth Peter_Spaeth is online now
Peter Spaeth
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 18,564
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by griffon512 View Post
i've never understood the issue with "string bidding." why wouldn't a buyer want to increase the next bid the minimum amount in many auction scenarios assuming there is no bid retraction and the buyer pays? please explain.

as for the price of the matty, t206 prices of iconic hofers are outpacing the market, and the sgc 5 has better eye appeal imo than recent psa 5 sales in the mid 3k range.

we're seeing more examples of sgc cards getting psa prices in popular registry sets based on the eye appeal of the card rather than the grade or tpg company. that's a good thing for the hobby.
It also can be used abusively to run up the high bidder, if the string bidder stops just below his max. Sometimes depending on the bid amounts you can tell when the next bid will top. There was at least one guy who did this all the time in PWCC and Brent was aware of it. That bidder is no longer active.

It also looks suspicious when it's done right out of the gate, nobody realistically is trying to win the auction on day one of ten but PWCC auctions have, or had at least, a lot of early string bidding.

So it depends on context.
__________________
Stuff trumps all. Even tainted stuff.

Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 10-15-2018 at 04:15 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 10-15-2018, 04:11 PM
griffon512 griffon512 is offline
James
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 234
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector View Post
I also am talking generally as well. Not saying for this particular item...also not saying it was on the 1955 clemente...just saying there is history of cards spiking out of nowhere where it may not be as organic as we would like....not saying it happened in this case....also was a reaction when someone was comparing the sales with recent stock prices...so was more of take on not comparing stocks with cards in this genre at this time until there is much more data points and time..
the 50's/60's/70's card bubble is very different than the dynamic in popular tobacco and cracker jack cards imo. the biggest difference is the pop. the second major difference is that buyers of the latter are differentiating between eye appeal and technical grade. buyers are paying prices that are sometimes 2-3 grades above the assigned grade for great eye appeal cards manufactured 100 years ago, not 50 years ago. that isn't to say that shilling isn't a factor...it is. but pricing seems less divorced from reality than what we were seeing in mid-2016 with high end clemente and rose rookies.

Last edited by griffon512; 10-15-2018 at 05:00 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 10-15-2018, 04:16 PM
griffon512 griffon512 is offline
James
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 234
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
It also can be used abusively to run up the high bidder, if the string bidder stops just below his max. Sometimes depending on the bid amounts you can tell when the next bid will top. There was at least one guy who did this all the time in PWCC and Brent was aware of it. That bidder is no longer active.
yes, some of the time you can tell when the next bid will top but i don't believe in most instances you can, which makes it a high risk strategy unless you are willing to pay for the card or retract your bid. that's the reason i've focused on the message of eliminating serial bid retractors from participating in ebay auctions.

Last edited by griffon512; 10-15-2018 at 04:17 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 10-15-2018, 04:30 PM
1952boyntoncollector 1952boyntoncollector is offline
ja.ke liebe.rman
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: http://www.psacard.com/PSASetRegistry/alltimeset.aspx?s=175000&ac=1
Posts: 4,524
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by griffon512 View Post
the 50's/60's/70's card bubble is very different than the dynamic in popular tobacco and cracker jack cards imo. the biggest difference is the pop. the second major difference is that buyers of the latter are differentiating between eye appeal and technical grade. buyers are paying prices that are sometimes 2-3 grades above the assigned grade for great eye appeal cards manufactured 100 years ago, not 50 years ago. that isn't to say that shilling isn't a factor...it is. but pricing seems less divorced from reality than what we were seeing in mid-2016 high end clemente and rose rookies.
i dont think pop is a factor when you are talking about a PSa 4-5 T206 versus a 1950s PSA 7-8
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 10-15-2018, 04:41 PM
griffon512 griffon512 is offline
James
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 234
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector View Post
i dont think pop is a factor when you are talking about a PSa 4-5 T206 versus a 1950s PSA 7-8
my point is that very strong eye appeal of a psa 4-5 t206 is adding a couple of grades to the final price, so the pop of a 4-5 is less relevant. pwcc's PQ and HE labels are a successful marketing tool to exploit that. buyers are willing to 6 prices for a really nice 4-5. that dynamic is less true of most 50s/60s cards -- with the exception of '51 and '52 mantle -- which have larger pops to begin with in general, and have less variation among high end examples because of better manufacturing processes 50 years later.

Last edited by griffon512; 10-15-2018 at 04:49 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 10-15-2018, 04:47 PM
Snapolit1's Avatar
Snapolit1 Snapolit1 is offline
Ste.ve Na.polit.ano
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 2,962
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by griffon512 View Post
yes, some of the time you can tell when the next bid will top but i don't believe in most instances you can, which makes it a high risk strategy unless you are willing to pay for the card or retract your bid. that's the reason i've focused on the message of eliminating serial bid retractors from participating in ebay auctions.
Logically it seems like the risk of this in a PWCC acution should be less than other eBay auctions, as Brett is going to collect payment whoever "wins" the item. If some guy is just listing an item himself and his buddy accidentally "wins" the item by bidding too high, they can just make believe the transaction never happened and re-list it. Or cancel the transaction on some fraudulent ground.

I once shiiled a Celine Dion meet and greet package at a live charity auction because my buddy who ran the event told me no way his friend was not going to win it. And it was for charity. And the winner was nearly a billionaire. But I still occasionally get a cold sweat thinking I had to pay $28,000 to meet her.

Last edited by Snapolit1; 10-15-2018 at 04:54 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 10-15-2018, 05:00 PM
Exhibitman's Avatar
Exhibitman Exhibitman is offline
Ad@m W@r$h@w
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Beautiful Downtown Burbank
Posts: 7,323
Default

1, 1.5 and 2 are all low grade, so I wouldn't read too much into the grades themselves. The "grade uber alles" mentality seems to be a trait of those trying to compete on the registry and those dudes aren't chasing 1.5 vs. 2. The eye appeal trend has been building for a while.
__________________
Please visit my web site: www.americasgreatboxingcards.com
So... move out of your studio apartment! And try speaking to a real live woman, and GROW THE HELL UP! I mean, it's just baseball cards dammit, IT'S JUST BASEBALL CARDS!
10% off any BIN in my eBay store (user name: exhibitman) for N54 members buying direct from me through this site instead, just PM me.

Last edited by Exhibitman; 10-15-2018 at 05:03 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #31  
Old 10-15-2018, 05:07 PM
Vintageclout Vintageclout is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 378
Default T206s

Quote:
Originally Posted by 100backstroke View Post
Also odd was the ending result bid for the T206 W. Johnson portrait PSA 1.5 that went for $1,650.

On ebay recently a PSA 1 went for $375. And there is currently up on ebay a PSA 2 with BIN for $1,299.99

So, is someone really buying the PSA 1.5 for $1,650. and passing on the PSA 2 for $1,299.99 ?
Itís ALL about the eye appeal. People rather have an extremely nice 1.5 (with a negligible technical defect that lowers the grade) than a borderline eye appeal 2 or 3. That is EXACTLY where the hobby has leaned towards. Bottom line is VCP is useless without an image.
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 10-15-2018, 05:14 PM
Vintageclout Vintageclout is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 378
Default T206s

Quote:
Originally Posted by griffon512 View Post
i've never understood the issue with "string bidding." why wouldn't a buyer want to increase the next bid the minimum amount in many auction scenarios assuming there is no bid retraction and the buyer pays? please explain.

as for the price of the matty, t206 prices of iconic hofers are outpacing the market, and the sgc 5 has better eye appeal imo than recent psa 5 sales in the mid 3k range.

we're seeing more examples of sgc cards getting psa prices in popular registry sets based on the eye appeal of the card rather than the grade or tpg company. that's a good thing for the hobby.
EXACTLY Jim! Collectors rather stare at a beautiful card than a higher numerical grade. Many times, the ďtechnicalĒ aspects for a cardís grade allows for lower graded cards to easily outdistance higher assessments with regard to superior aesthetics. This circumstance is widespread with low to mid grade cards, and we are seeing it with pricing results.
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 10-15-2018, 06:00 PM
swarmee's Avatar
swarmee swarmee is offline
J0hn Raff3rty
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Niceville FL
Posts: 4,010
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snapolit1 View Post
I once shiiled a Celine Dion meet and greet package at a live charity auction because my buddy who ran the event told me no way his friend was not going to win it. And it was for charity. And the winner was nearly a billionaire. But I still occasionally get a cold sweat thinking I had to pay $28,000 to meet her.
So, was this illegal in the state you placed the bid? Thanks for your confession.
__________________
--
PWCC: The Fish Stinks From the Head
PSA: Regularly Get Cheated
BGS: Can't detect trimming on modern
SGC: Closed auto authentication business
JSA: Approved same T206 Autos before SGC
Oh, what a difference a year makes.
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 10-15-2018, 06:22 PM
Sean's Avatar
Sean Sean is offline
Sean Costello
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Woodland, California
Posts: 3,575
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vintageclout View Post
Bottom line is VCP is useless without an image.
+1
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 10-15-2018, 06:41 PM
bounce bounce is offline
DR
David R@tliff
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Texas
Posts: 284
Default

VCP has images, they aren't hard to get. Here you go.

I feel like the price for the SGC was too high. Market value for their "holders" isn't really the same, and in these mid grades there are often flaws that PSA probably downgrades. I know I'm speaking broadly, but I think most that try and cross would tell you the same thing - expectation from SGC to PSA should normally be a grade lower. There are exceptions, and this might be one.

As someone who collects T206 portraits I can say the Matty is a tough one to find in the mid-grades that really ticks all the boxes. I've owned 4-5 of them at different times between 3-6, but don't currently have one as I still have not found the right one.

I don't think the auction bidding looks all that suspect, the winner put in two bids. One at $100, one to win.


This one sold in REA in May for $3,600
Registration is off, centering is good, color is really good



This one sold in PWCC in April for $3471, and in PWCC in February before that (...no additional comment) for $3018
Registration is really good, centering is great but color isn't quite as vivid



This one sold in Memory Lane in January for $2827
Registration is a little off, centering is great and color is great



This on sold in Goldin last November for $3300, and in PWCC in March 2017 for $3450 (oops...)
Registration is a little off, centering is great and color is great



And the SGC 5 Certified High End for $4209
Registration is great, centering is great, color is great
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 10-15-2018, 07:16 PM
Throttlesteer Throttlesteer is offline
Anson
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Posts: 482
Default

My original point was really focused on the continued escalation of the T206 "big boys". But, you have to be careful comparing color from different scans. There's a lot of variability in scanners, as well as how much an image has been processed to look good. You can tell a lot just looking at the differences in border colors on the PSA flips.
__________________
An$on Lyt!e
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 10-15-2018, 07:19 PM
MichelaiTorres83 MichelaiTorres83 is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Posts: 94
Default

I think the psa 5 in 2017 is the nicest. The corners are sharper.
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 10-15-2018, 07:33 PM
Peter_Spaeth's Avatar
Peter_Spaeth Peter_Spaeth is online now
Peter Spaeth
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 18,564
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Throttlesteer View Post
My original point was really focused on the continued escalation of the T206 "big boys". But, you have to be careful comparing color from different scans. There's a lot of variability in scanners, as well as how much an image has been processed to look good. You can tell a lot just looking at the differences in border colors on the PSA flips.
Yeah I have made this point time and again when people compare 52T Mantles. It drives me crazy when you see an obviously nuked scan and people ooh and aah at the color.
__________________
Stuff trumps all. Even tainted stuff.

Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 10-15-2018 at 07:34 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 10-15-2018, 07:40 PM
Andrew1975's Avatar
Andrew1975 Andrew1975 is online now
Andrew
member
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Virginia
Posts: 132
Default

This thread has been particularly interesting (and entertaining) to me, due to the fact that I am the buyer of the card. The price was high, but not insane in my opinion, and I am happy with the purchase. I researched past sales carefully to determine a price that I was comfortable with. For me, it simply came down to the fact that this particular card (IMO) had significantly better eye appeal than other recent mid grade sales (listed on VCP), and I bid accordingly. Incidentally, I think the SGC 5 card that I purchased last night and the PSA 5 card (posted above by bounce) with cert # ending in 146 are the same card. Contrast is definitely different in the scans, but appears to be the same card... I am a collector, with no intention of selling the card, and could not care less about the PWCC sticker (that I will probably remove), or set registries. Mid grade T206 portraits of elite HOFers, that are very well centered with good color and registration, just aren’t that easy to find, and I knew that I would have to bid strong to have a chance of winning the card. I bid twice on the card. Once at $100 (which was pretty pointless), and the final bid that I placed with about 10 seconds left in the auction. I hope that there was no shilling, but I guess it is always possible in an online auction. This was definitely no bargain purchase, but I am happy to have won the card and look forward to getting it in hand and adding it to my collection. I appreciate all the comments in this thread, including those that say I way overpaid. Thanks all!

Andrew

Last edited by Andrew1975; 10-15-2018 at 08:01 PM. Reason: Correct typo
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 10-15-2018, 07:43 PM
T206Collector's Avatar
T206Collector T206Collector is offline
P@u1 M1F5uD
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 4,121
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MichelaiTorres83 View Post
I think the psa 5 in 2017 is the nicest. The corners are sharper.
+1
__________________
Signed Pre-War Card Galleries
www.T206Collector.com
Reply With Quote
  #41  
Old 10-15-2018, 07:58 PM
RedsFan1941 RedsFan1941 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 989
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew1975 View Post
This thread has been particularly interesting (and entertaining) to me, due to the fact that I am the buyer of the card. The price was high, but not insane in my opinion, and I am happy with the purchase. I researched past sales carefully to determine a price that I was comfortable with. For me, it simply came down to the fact that this particular card (IMO) had significantly better eye appeal than other recent mid grade sales (listed on VCP), and I bid accordingly. Incidentally, I think the SGC 5 card that I purchased last night and the PSA 5 card (posted above by bounce) with cert # ending in 146 are the same card. Contrast is definitely different in the scans, but appears to be the same card... I am a collector, with no intention of selling the card, and could not care less about the PWCC sticker (that I will probably remove), or set registries. Mid grade T206 portraits of elite HOFers, that are very well centered with good color and registration, just arenít that easy to find, and I new that I would have to bid strong to have a chance of winning the card. I bid twice on the card. Once at $100 (which was pretty pointless), and the final bid that I placed with about 10 seconds left in the auction. I hope that there was no shilling, but I guess it is always possible in an online auction. This was definitely no bargain purchase, but I am happy to have won the card and look forward to getting it in hand and adding it to my collection. I appreciate all the comments in this thread, including those that say I way overpaid. Thanks all!

Andrew
back in my lurking days, i read many posts from a former member who would come on here the day after an auction and bemoan the crazy high price a piece of Negro League memorabilia or a HOF rookie card sold for. i mean he would nearly call the buyer stupid. then as these threads evolved, it would turn out the member more often than not was the underbidder. so his bid wasn't idiotic. only the person who went one click higher was.

the moral of the story is it's easy to criticize other people's purchases when they don't fit your perception of what's acceptable. more often than not these people find themselves doing more bitching than buying.
__________________
R0nnie L3hman
Reply With Quote
  #42  
Old 10-15-2018, 08:06 PM
bounce bounce is offline
DR
David R@tliff
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Texas
Posts: 284
Default

STRING BIDDING - I know a lot about this because Brent and I talked about it as I was doing it as they define it, and they asked me about it. It's still one of the least understood bidding practices out there. I don't agree with their policy, but I understand why it exists.

PWCC defined it as bumping the minimum bid multiple times without actually taking the lead. I understand how it could look odd when you can't see the names and broader bidding history, but without that you don't have all the facts or context. This was one of the big downsides of eBay not displaying the user IDs in the bid history.

For me, it's strategic to help manage my time bidding. I bid on literally hundreds if not thousands of items every week, so sniping isn't effective but I also don't want to have to come back to everything. Those "string bids" helped me rule out somewhere between 10-25% of auctions.

I wanted to either (1) get right behind the high bidder on something I really did want to win, or (2) drop out from any continued bidding because the high bid was sufficiently higher than I would want to pay. I normally did this a day or two prior to auction end to rule some auctions out, but sometimes did it late in the auction on things I really was trying to win.

When you're already high bidder in an auction, you don't have much incentive to bump your bid higher unless you've been outbid. If you know someone else is right there, it may put you to the test sooner - which for me is good because it helps me rule some things out so I could focus elsewhere.

Maybe other people did it to shill, but for me it was mostly time management.
Reply With Quote
  #43  
Old 10-15-2018, 08:08 PM
boneheadandrube's Avatar
boneheadandrube boneheadandrube is offline
Greg B.
Greg Bish.op
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: South Eastern PA
Posts: 261
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by T206Collector View Post
+1
I think they are the exact same card...
Reply With Quote
  #44  
Old 10-15-2018, 08:19 PM
bounce bounce is offline
DR
David R@tliff
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Texas
Posts: 284
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by boneheadandrube View Post
I think they are the exact same card...
I had thought the same thing, but wanted to see what others thought before I said anything. I suspect this was a crossover that didn't go as expected, and then did.

Couple of final thoughts

1) The price didn't bother me because it was $500 higher than the last one, but because it was 50% higher than a comparable card from 9 months ago. That's a big increase.

2) If it is the same card (and sure seems like it is), anyone else think it's weird that it WAS NOT Certified High End the first time PWCC sold it, but it was this time?
Reply With Quote
  #45  
Old 10-15-2018, 08:55 PM
MichelaiTorres83 MichelaiTorres83 is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Posts: 94
Default

I suppose it is possible it is the same card. The images are a tad fuzzy on my phone.

Last edited by MichelaiTorres83; 10-15-2018 at 08:55 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #46  
Old 10-15-2018, 09:29 PM
DeanH3's Avatar
DeanH3 DeanH3 is offline
D/e/@/n H/@/c/k/e/t/t
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Northern California
Posts: 1,197
Default

Andrew - Congrats on a FANTASTIC acquisition. Well done. You will not regret that purchase one bit. I have over-paid for most of my collection and now glad I bought them when I did.

[quote=bounce;1819999]VCP has images, they aren't hard to get. Here you go.

I feel like the price for the SGC was too high. Market value for their "holders" isn't really the same, and in these mid grades there are often flaws that PSA probably downgrades. I know I'm speaking broadly, but I think most that try and cross would tell you the same thing - expectation from SGC to PSA should normally be a grade lower. There are exceptions, and this might be one.

David - While I don't completely disagree with your sentiment. And I know you are speaking more in a general sense, however, I do believe that PSA is intentionally harder on crossovers. I've seen too many stories where a card is rejected in its slab, but have a very high rate of success once it's submitted raw.

Also, PSA and SGC are tougher on different flaws so their grades reflect that. We also know there a many PSA cards out there that wouldn't even receive the same grade today due to their tightening the screws. So de-valuing any SGC card graded years ago because it won't cross isn't completely fair because many PSA cards would fail as well.

I guess my main point is using the blanket sentiment that SGC cards should be viewed a 1 grade lower is not entirely fair. Each card is it's own unique situation. Many are worthy and many are not. Tough to put a percentage on it.

As someone who collects T206 portraits I can say the Matty is a tough one to find in the mid-grades that really ticks all the boxes. I've owned 4-5 of them at different times between 3-6, but don't currently have one as I still have not found the right one.

This I am in total agreement. Many of the top tier portraits are tough to find that check all the boxes. I think collectors are really honing in on that. I couldn't be happier with my 4.

Reply With Quote
  #47  
Old 10-15-2018, 09:54 PM
Aquarian Sports Cards Aquarian Sports Cards is offline
Scott Russell
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 3,078
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew1975 View Post
This thread has been particularly interesting (and entertaining) to me, due to the fact that I am the buyer of the card. The price was high, but not insane in my opinion, and I am happy with the purchase. I researched past sales carefully to determine a price that I was comfortable with. For me, it simply came down to the fact that this particular card (IMO) had significantly better eye appeal than other recent mid grade sales (listed on VCP), and I bid accordingly. Incidentally, I think the SGC 5 card that I purchased last night and the PSA 5 card (posted above by bounce) with cert # ending in 146 are the same card. Contrast is definitely different in the scans, but appears to be the same card... I am a collector, with no intention of selling the card, and could not care less about the PWCC sticker (that I will probably remove), or set registries. Mid grade T206 portraits of elite HOFers, that are very well centered with good color and registration, just arenít that easy to find, and I knew that I would have to bid strong to have a chance of winning the card. I bid twice on the card. Once at $100 (which was pretty pointless), and the final bid that I placed with about 10 seconds left in the auction. I hope that there was no shilling, but I guess it is always possible in an online auction. This was definitely no bargain purchase, but I am happy to have won the card and look forward to getting it in hand and adding it to my collection. I appreciate all the comments in this thread, including those that say I way overpaid. Thanks all!

Andrew
I worry that while you paid what you were WILLING to pay, you paid more than you HAD to pay. If you're happy that's great, but would you be happier if it was $800 cheaper?
__________________
Great experience buying from edjs and mybuddyinc. Check out my ebay store, weird, eclectic, accurate, and reasonable! http://stores.ebay.com/Aquarian-Sports-Cards Also check out http://www.birminghamauctioneers.com
Reply With Quote
  #48  
Old 10-15-2018, 11:05 PM
Pat R's Avatar
Pat R Pat R is offline
P@trick R.omolo
member
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 1,390
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 100backstroke View Post
Also odd was the ending result bid for the T206 W. Johnson portrait PSA 1.5 that went for $1,650.

On ebay recently a PSA 1 went for $375. And there is currently up on ebay a PSA 2 with BIN for $1,299.99

So, is someone really buying the PSA 1.5 for $1,650. and passing on the PSA 2 for $1,299.99 ?
I think most people would take the 1.5 over the 2 even at the higher price.

Johnson 1.5.jpgJohnson 2.jpg

and that's not paper loss on the left border of the 1.5 is a print
flaw that is found on a few Johnson Portraits.

Johnson Border Flaw.jpg
Reply With Quote
  #49  
Old 10-15-2018, 11:17 PM
Andrew1975's Avatar
Andrew1975 Andrew1975 is online now
Andrew
member
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Virginia
Posts: 132
Default

Yes, obviously. Since I want to continue to participate in the hobby, and since I typically seek out the type of cards that appear mainly in larger online auctions, I choose to bid what I am willing to pay, and hope for the best.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards View Post
I worry that while you paid what you were WILLING to pay, you paid more than you HAD to pay. If you're happy that's great, but would you be happier if it was $800 cheaper?

Last edited by Andrew1975; 10-15-2018 at 11:41 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #50  
Old 10-15-2018, 11:28 PM
bounce bounce is offline
DR
David R@tliff
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Texas
Posts: 284
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards View Post
I worry that while you paid what you were WILLING to pay, you paid more than you HAD to pay. If you're happy that's great, but would you be happier if it was $800 cheaper?
not really, considering there was an underbidder that was $50 less

or is that a bogus bid? that bidder dropped in $1600 earlier on so doesn't really seem nefarious

it's really RedFan's fault, considering if he had just passed the other bidder would have won the card at just over $3700 and then we're not talking about it

it's a great card, and it's not an easy find in that grade with that eye appeal

it was steep, but we've gotten a reasonable explanation as to what happened, which is actually kind of cool if you ask me

if you're building a collection of cards like this, you'll never miss that $500 - just make it up somewhere else
Reply With Quote
Reply



Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Matty Portrait Auction Archive Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions 12 06-30-2008 02:25 PM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:59 PM.


ebay GSB