Thoughts on final prices in Goldin/Ruth auction?

[GregMitch34]

I was in on a few cards--not the ones in the truly high end--to the point where I thought I might be getting slight again, then dropped out. But maybe most ended up fair price and no surprises. But seemed to be some real spikes on some.

[MVSNYC]

The Jeter game used pieces were very high (understandably so)...Jerseys, Bats, Hats, Cleats, etc...

[glchen]

I thought the prices for the Ruth cards were fairly strong. I won some and probably overpaid. One lot that I did not win, was the R315 Babe Ruth PSA 6 card that went for an incredible $13+K after BP! Link I have no idea what happened there, but I'm positive that the consignor is ecstatic.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Looks like the Baltimore News did not sell? It says 15 bids but final price is pass, does that mean it did not hit reserve?

[WillowGrove]

Did the auction actually end?

[Sean1125]

I personally find it incredibly stupid of any auction house to run a large auction right before the national.

I think there were some huge 'hits' in terms of prices, but across the board I believe they were lower than expected (on cards, I paid no attention to memorabilia).

Sean

[GregMitch34]

That R315 is not even that scarce, right?

Yes, a few cards did not meet reserve.

[oldjudge]

The reserve on the BN Ruth was $500K with the buyers penalty. That is a lot more than it sold for in REA a year ago. Trees don't grow to the sky (sometimes they fall). As a card that is not part of a major set, and possibly not a card but a schedule, it needed to take a break on its appreciation.

[scooter729]

I thought the T206 near-set went a bit low at about $13K all-in. I know about half the cards had a corner clipped, but still for about $25 per card for a near set, I thought that was a good price for the buyer.

[MattyC]

No knock at all on the Balt News, its rarity and importance are serious-- but I always felt it should not be so far ahead of the rookie card, in terms of value.

[brian1961]

[QUOTE=GregMitch34;1299619]That R315 is not even that scarce, right?

I looked at the PSA pop report on this issue. The numbers are very low on these. Surely a population of less than 10 Ruths should satisfy you for relative scarcity. Maybe "they're all at SGC"; I doubt it.

The auction house termed this an obscure issue. I remember among the photos showcasing Barry Halper's massive collection in Beckett 3 was an entire page devoted to Babe Ruth cards. Quite an assemblage. The R315 was not among them. Moreover, as I studied the appearance of the card, it has elegance all over it. The BABE looks at the height of his game, his belly pretty firm and not bulging. Postcard-size, which is nice, as it allows us less eyestrain to appreciate his swing.

No, I think the bidders just decided this card has fantastic eye appeal, is scarce enough to have been seen by few collectors, and therefore would make a wonderful addition to one's Babe Ruth, Pre-WWII, or HOFer collection. Most of all, he's Babe Ruth of the Yankees!!!! Not the Red Sox or Bees. Nothing against those teams in the least, it's just that Babe Ruth's main claim to fame was as a Yankee, and there are tragically so few good cards of him as a Yank.

It all adds up to several collectors deciding it was well worth 13K at the end of the day. ---Brian Powell

[glchen]

[QUOTE=brian1961;1299647]

Originally Posted by GregMitch34

That R315 is not even that scarce, right?

I looked at the PSA pop report on this issue. The numbers are very low on these. Surely a population of less than 10 Ruths should satisfy you for relative scarcity. Maybe "they're all at SGC"; I doubt it.

The auction house termed this an obscure issue. I remember among the photos showcasing Barry Halper's massive collection in Beckett 3 was an entire page devoted to Babe Ruth cards. Quite an assemblage. The R315 was not among them. Moreover, as I studied the appearance of the card, it has elegance all over it. The BABE looks at the height of his game, his belly pretty firm and not bulging. Postcard-size, which is nice, as it allows us less eyestrain to appreciate his swing.

No, I think the bidders just decided this card has fantastic eye appeal, is scarce enough to have been seen by few collectors, and therefore would make a wonderful addition to one's Babe Ruth, Pre-WWII, or HOFer collection. Most of all, he's Babe Ruth of the Yankees!!!! Not the Red Sox or Bees. Nothing against those teams in the least, it's just that Babe Ruth's main claim to fame was as a Yankee, and there are tragically so few good cards of him as a Yank.

It all adds up to several collectors deciding it was well worth 13K at the end of the day. ---Brian Powell

There are 20 in the PSA pop report and 29 in the SGC pop report ....

[MattyC]

Brian,

Very well said-- there are tragically few great cards of him as a Yankee. Most of us will settle for one that just says "Yankees" on it-- I am talking about YOU, FREDERICK FOTO and M101-6 !

[brian1961]

There are 20 in the PSA pop report and 29 in the SGC pop report ....[/QUOTE]

Gary, I see where you're coming from, as the PSA report lists 13 for "Babe" Ruth, and 7 specimens for Babe Ruth. I assumed there were two varieties, but I may be wrong. PSA should lump them together if they're the same card.

Regardless, I stand firm with what I said. Fifty examples are a hefty pop to some, I realize. Still, the example in the Goldin auction was distinctly above average, condition-wise. Collectors wanting a beautiful Ruth at the height of his career obviously fought hard for that card. What you may consider high pop numbers are not always a deterrent to attracting big bucks, when the card may not have been very well noticed and appreciated in the past, prior to the Goldin auction.

Collectors have now noticed, appreciated what they saw, and now we have an appreciated value.

[rsst206]

I can add that of the 3 variations known for Ruth. Type A and Type B and yellow stock. Type A is far less seen. I for one going after the master set is missing that Ruth. But think that is an awful strong price.
br,
Ron

[glchen]

Originally Posted by rsst206

I can add that of the 3 variations known for Ruth. Type A and Type B and yellow stock. Type A is far less seen. I for one going after the master set is missing that Ruth. But think that is an awful strong price.
br,
Ron

It's possible it's a variation issue. Personally, I have always believed that the yellow stock variation was the most rare, much more than the others. The Type A is the no caption variation, and the Type B is the caption variation, I believe. I believe the no caption one is the one that is hand cut from a 3 card strip. I think the caption one is factory cut since I have never seen it in strip form. If you search the auction history for Legendary, you will see a number of R315 Ruth's including many of the Type A no caption variety, and a number of the uncut strips. The only thing that I can think of is that there are not many high grade varieties of the no caption version. Regardless, still an awfully high price, I think.

[JasonD08]

What goes up must come down, market softening a bit?

[kengoldin]

Originally Posted by glchen

It's possible it's a variation issue. Personally, I have always believed that the yellow stock variation was the most rare, much more than the others. The Type A is the no caption variation, and the Type B is the caption variation, I believe. I believe the no caption one is the one that is hand cut from a 3 card strip. I think the caption one is factory cut since I have never seen it in strip form. If you search the auction history for Legendary, you will see a number of R315 Ruth's including many of the Type A no caption variety, and a number of the uncut strips. The only thing that I can think of is that there are not many high grade varieties of the no caption version. Regardless, still an awfully high price, I think.

could also just be 2 businessmen with nothing to do with the hobby or net 54, wanting a great looking card to go along with the Babe Ruth Autographs they won in the auction, and both thinking this was the pick of the litter and not giving up. We will never know.

[HRBAKER]

.....or the firm belly.

[brian1961]

Originally Posted by HRBAKER

.....or the firm belly.

Yes Jeff, that "foim" belly must be emphasized!

The antithesis sure stands out in The Bambino's '33 Goudey premium, sad to say.

--Brian Powell

[KC Doughboy]

I had nine items listed with Goldin to test the waters and I was pleased with a few things, but very unhappy with others.

My Mantle brought what is probably a fair price, but I was hoping for more. My Goudeys were a wild card. My '41 Play Ball set went quite a bit less than I was hoping.

I listed my secondary sets of '41 Play Ball and 1960 Topps to see how they would do. I don't think I will auction my top grade sets with Goldin after this showing. My DiMaggio cards did okay I guess.

The last two items were given away... I sold the other '28 World Series ticket (that was torn and lower condition) for around $500 on eBay, so this should have bought a lot more. The "Dixie Premiums Spiral Notebook" was actually the salesman sample and it is the only one that I know of in existence.

I know of a lot of people who had computer issues with their auction once it went into extended bidding. I was chatting online with a large group of collectors who were trying to get in and bid, but could not. I emailed Ken Goldin during this extended bidding period to tell him about the issues and he said I was the only person. When I replied and told him about the group of us who were having trouble, Ken Goldin replied with this ALL CAPS zinger,

"ERIC
LEAVE ME ALONE
I have 5 people here answering phones
Not a single bidder has emailed saying he cannot bid
Not a single bidder has called saying he cannot place a bid
System is working perfectly"

I'm sure he was under a lot of pressure, but what classless reply!

Here were my final numbers. What do you think, good or bad returns?
Thanks,
Eric Matthews

Lot # Items Final Sales Price
130 1952 Topps Mickey Mantle #311 SGC 55 VG-EX+ 4.5 $14,000.00

984 Lot of (15) Brooks Robinson Signed Baseball Cards $250.00

1067 1933 Goudey Baseball Collection of (78) Cards $650.00

1069 1941 Joe DiMaggio Play Ball Lot of (2) Wrong Backs With One Autographed $650.00

1070 1941 Play Ball "Complete" Set of 72 cards (Includes Wrong Backs and Signed Cards) $1,800.00

1072 1948 Leaf #1 Joe DiMaggio PSA 2 GOOD $325.00

1087 High Quality 1960 Topps Baseball Complete set of 572 With 38 Graded Cards $4,250.00

1144 1928 World Series New York Yankees vs St.Louis Cardinals Game 1 Ticket Stub $225.00

1334 Dixie Premiums Spiral Notebook $150.00

[oldjudge]

I don't have a dog in this fight, but I have to say that no one could have worked harder than Ken promoting the items in his auction. Also, if people have computer problems and want to bid they can always pick up the phone. Last time I checked that still works.

[glynparson]

But If this did not come from the Kutztown PA area originally sold by Mike Kush to Bill Miller it is not the only one.

[bobfreedman]

[/QUOTE] I know of a lot of people who had computer issues with their auction once it went into extended bidding. I was chatting online with a large group of collectors who were trying to get in and bid, but could not. [/QUOTE]

Eric, I run Goldin's software and was aware of no issues, I am not saying you did not have any but, if you can PM me and tell me what the issues were and on which particular lots you were having problems with I will do some research and get back with you, thanks

[ZachS]

Originally Posted by KC Doughboy

Ken Goldin replied with this ALL CAPS zinger,

"ERIC
LEAVE ME ALONE
I have 5 people here answering phones
Not a single bidder has emailed saying he cannot bid
Not a single bidder has called saying he cannot place a bid
System is working perfectly"

I'm sure he was under a lot of pressure, but what classless reply!

Pressure or no pressure, software problems or not... that is a piss poor way to reply to one of your customers. I'd be pretty upset if I consigned multiple auctions with someone and they told me to leave them alone.

[kengoldin]

Eric
First off, the prices you quotes are all incorrect, and lower then final realized price
final realized price for each of those can be seen at

http://www.goldinauctions.com/catalog.aspx

if you are going to quote me, please do it fully


Keep in mind, these emails were coming in during EXTENDED BIDDING
It was obvious despite the extended bidding process listed in the rules, and the multiple emails we send out stating that entire auction closes at the same time, he didn't seem to understand.
you can say what you will, but 3 emails in a 5 minute time period on same question I answered 3 times, in the middle of a hectic extended bidding...anyone would get frustrated.
I apologize if 'leave me alone' was so offensive

email 1

Sent: Friday, July 18, 2014 10:26 PM
To: Eric Matthews [kansasbaseball1957@yahoo.com]
Attachments:



You are not following correctly

We are getting 50 bids a minute here

The entire auction closes at same time, not lot by lot

Meaning, just because you are watching one lot and it hasn’t gotten a bid, it will be open if ANY lot gets a bid



From: Eric Matthews [mailto:kansasbaseball1957@yahoo.com]
Sent: Friday, July 18, 2014 10:28 PM
To: Ken Goldin
Subject: Auction not running properly



I assume you know, but from the users end, no auctions are updating. Every single item still shows in the extended bidding phase. Every time I refresh my browser, it resets the 15 min clock.

It doesn't look like any items in the auction have received a bid yet in extended time.

No need to reply to this... wanted to make sure you knew.

Eric

email 2...he sends 3 minute later, look how quickly I reply

Sent: Friday, July 18, 2014 10:29 PM
To: Eric Matthews [kansasbaseball1957@yahoo.com]
Attachments:



Eric

We are receiving oer 50 bids a minute here

I don’t know what to tell you




From: Eric Matthews [mailto:kansasbaseball1957@yahoo.com]
Sent: Friday, July 18, 2014 10:32 PM
To: Ken Goldin
Subject: Re: Auction not running properly



I'm chatting with 3 different bidders on my Facebook baseball card site and all 4 of us are having the same issue. I've gone through the lots one at a time starting with the first lot on the site... not just my listings.

Hmmmm



On Friday, July 18, 2014 9:29 PM, Ken Goldin wrote:

email three and NOT all in caps)
ERIC

LEAVE ME ALONE

I have 5 people here answering phones

Not a single bidder has emailed saying he cannot bid

Not a single bidder has called saying he cannot place a bid

System is working perfectly



From: Eric Matthews [mailto:kansasbaseball1957@yahoo.com]
Sent: Friday, July 18, 2014 11:08 PM
To: Ken Goldin
Subject: Re: Auction not running properly



We've now had more than 30 people try and no one can see any updates... not on Explorer, Google Chrome, Mozilla Firefox and a bunch of others I've never heard of.

The I.T. savvy guys say it sounds like your servers are not keeping up.

Either way, there is certainly an issue on your end.

Hope your I.T. people can figure it out!

Eric

[ZachS]

Sounds like Eric and the others he was talking to didn't understand that they had to have a bid placed on an item before extended bidding began in order to bid during extended bidding.

I still think the "LEAVE ME ALONE" was uncalled for given the circumstances. It wasn't like he was being rude to you in those emails... he was just confused as to how your auction process worked.

[thecatspajamas]

Sounds to me like a misunderstanding regarding two things:

1) The whole auction continues for another 15 minutes whenever a bid is placed on any item in the entire auction.

In other words, if you're watching one specific lot, the timer could very well reset over and over without you seeing any bids come in for that one lot, simply because other lots in the auction are receiving bids. The software does have a sort filter that allows you to see which items have received the most recent bids. If you refresh that search over and over, you will see which items are being bid on, resulting in the clock being extended for ALL items in the auction.

2) If you didn't bid on a particular lot prior to Extended Bidding, you cannot bid on that item after Extended Bidding has begun, no matter if the entire auction is still live or not.



From what I'm reading above, Eric and/or his compadres were expecting to see individual 15-minute timers on each lot counting down to zero, and were confused as to why the clock was resetting without the lot(s) they were watching having received any bids.

There may also have been some frustration with not being able to bid on a lot(s) that they saw as still being "live," but which they were locked out of bidding on due to not having bid on them prior to Extended Bidding. I'm basing this on Eric's comments above about not being able to bid, though this does not appear to have been communicated in his e-mails to Ken that were posted above.


I will also add that I bid on several lots in the auction, both prior to and after Extended Bidding, and had no problems doing so. In all of the post-Extended Bidding bid cases though, I had bid on those lots prior to Extended Bidding as well, so my lack of problems appears to have been a result of not trying to buck the system. Other than that, I don't have a dog in this fight, but get frustrated myself when I see problems and accusations arise from what appear to be simple misunderstandings.

[hshrimps]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

The reserve on the BN Ruth was $500K with the buyers penalty. That is a lot more than it sold for in REA a year ago. Trees don't grow to the sky (sometimes they fall). As a card that is not part of a major set, and possibly not a card but a schedule, it needed to take a break on its appreciation.

Well said. I am sure the seller has no intention what so ever to sell the card. That card was simply a "promotional" item in the auction.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by ZachS

Pressure or no pressure, software problems or not... that is a piss poor way to reply to one of your customers. I'd be pretty upset if I consigned multiple auctions with someone and they told me to leave them alone.

A better solution might be to answer the first email, then to ignore the customer. Or you could get a personal 'Bat phone' for each person who consigns a certain amount of stuff, hire additional employees to man each one, and train them to impersonate your voice.

[thecatspajamas]

Originally Posted by Runscott

A better solution might be to answer the first email, then to ignore the customer. Or you could get a personal 'Bat phone' for each person who consigns a certain amount of stuff, hire additional employees to man each one, and train them to impersonate your voice.

I like the second solution. I think it would be cheaper though for Ken to just always talk like a robot when in public and then have his phones hooked to a Speak And Spell programmed to answer the phone with a single phrase: LEAVE ME ALONE



[In reading back over that, I realize that my solution makes no sense at all after my edits and re-edits, as Ken could just record his own voice saying LEAVE ME ALONE. You see, I started out with him talking like a robot and then buying robots to man the phones, then added the Speak and Spell option as a further cost-saving measure, but then that seemed too convoluted for a quick joke so I pared it back, and now I come off like some weird and out of touch dude with an avatar that nobody recognizes, which I also now realize is not helped by this added dialogue.]

[ZachS]

Originally Posted by thecatspajamas

[In reading back over that, I realize that my solution makes no sense at all after my edits and re-edits, as Ken could just record his own voice saying LEAVE ME ALONE. You see, I started out with him talking like a robot and then buying robots to man the phones, then added the Speak and Spell option as a further cost-saving measure, but then that seemed too convoluted for a quick joke so I pared it back, and now I come off like some weird and out of touch dude with an avatar that nobody recognizes, which I also now realize is not helped by this added dialogue.]

My brain hurts...

[thecatspajamas]

Originally Posted by zachs

my brain hurts...

Well, LEAVE ME ALONE

[KC Doughboy]

Originally Posted by kengoldin

Eric
First off, the prices you quotes are all incorrect, and lower then final realized price

Sorry if the prices I quoted were incorrect, but I copied and pasted from my account on your site.

[ZachS]

Originally Posted by KC Doughboy

Sorry if the prices I quoted were incorrect, but I copied and pasted from my account on your site.

I think he was also counting the premium

[KC Doughboy]

I will apologize directly to Ken Goldin, but want to publically apologize for suggesting his system did not work properly. I now understand that it was my failure to understand the system, as pointed out by several members above, that when a bid is received on ANY item, it resets the 15 min extended clock for all items. I've don't many online auctions and have only seen the 15 min clock reset for the items that were bid on.
Goldin's system worked exactly as it was designed.

Additionally, I could not bid because I was already the leading bidder.

I am still upset at the reply Ken Goldin sent me. I thought there were issues with the system and was trying to help. I was not calling. I was not texting. I sent e-mails!

You can see from each message I thought there was a problem with the system and had an increasing number of people complaining of the same issue with each new message I sent him. I was sending updates with more information each time. When there is a problem, it is something that is very time sensitive and it's important that information is relayed.
- After his inital reply, I thought it was just me and tried clearing my cache and refreshing my browser.
- Then I heard from two others who also thought there were problems, so I sent an update to let Ken know that maybe it wasn't just me.
- Then when a group of 30+ were chatting and all 30 felt something was wrong, so I sent another update to let him know that whole group of collectors thought it was an issue.

I now know we were all incorrect in our understanding of how he was running the auction. I sent the facts as I understood them each time; and each time, with the intent to be informative and helpful. I was never nasty, condescending, or threatening.

[kengoldin]

Originally Posted by KC Doughboy

I will apologize directly to Ken Goldin, but want to publically apologize for suggesting his system did not work properly. I now understand that it was my failure to understand the system, as pointed out by several members above, that when a bid is received on ANY item, it resets the 15 min extended clock for all items. I've don't many online auctions and have only seen the 15 min clock reset for the items that were bid on.
Goldin's system worked exactly as it was designed.

Additionally, I could not bid because I was already the leading bidder.

I am still upset at the reply Ken Goldin sent me. I thought there were issues with the system and was trying to help. I was not calling. I was not texting. I sent e-mails!

You can see from each message I thought there was a problem with the system and had an increasing number of people complaining of the same issue with each new message I sent him. I was sending updates with more information each time. When there is a problem, it is something that is very time sensitive and it's important that information is relayed.
- After his inital reply, I thought it was just me and tried clearing my cache and refreshing my browser.
- Then I heard from two others who also thought there were problems, so I sent an update to let Ken know that maybe it wasn't just me.
- Then when a group of 30+ were chatting and all 30 felt something was wrong, so I sent another update to let him know that whole group of collectors thought it was an issue.

I now know we were all incorrect in our understanding of how he was running the auction. I sent the facts as I understood them each time; and each time, with the intent to be informative and helpful. I was never nasty, condescending, or threatening.

---I wanted to edit this to thank any member of net54 who bid in the auction. We received over 13,000 bids and sales in excess of $5.3 million. We appreciate your support and look to grow and maintain a high level of customer service and satisfaction as we do.---

1. apology accepted. As I said, I am sorry I said 'leave me alone' after the third email on the same subject in 5 minutes....I was dealing with non stop phone calls (a good thing auction night) and I guess I got a little ruffled. If saying 'leave me alone' in an email is the worst thing I ever say to anyone, verbally or in email for the rest of my auction career I will be quite pleased! but sorry for the momentary lapse of etiquette.

2. Its funny because some people do complain that we send too many emails...we send a lot of emails, because we want our bidders to be informed.
This is one that was sent earlier in the day to all registered bidders and consignors....

We want to be as blunt as possible about the auction close tonight. Please be prepared for a LATE NIGHT. We remind you that we do not close 'lot by lot' nor do we have a hard close at 10pm Eastern. Initial bidding will end at 10pm, and at that time only those people who have placed a bid on a certain lot may bid on that lot during extended bidding. The auction will continue as long as ANY BID is placed on ANY LOT during a 15 minute period. When that bid is placed, the 15 minutes extends. This means just because an item you bid on has no action for 15 minutes, or even 2 hours, as long as there is action in the entire auction, it will stay open. However, if at 10 pm you are the ONLY bidder on a lot then the auction for that lot has closed as no one else may bid on that lot past 10 pm.

[ullmandds]

in my opinion...the hammer on that ruth was crazy money!!!!!

[I Only Smoke 4 the Cards]

Originally Posted by scooter729

I thought the T206 near-set went a bit low at about $13K all-in. I know about half the cards had a corner clipped, but still for about $25 per card for a near set, I thought that was a good price for the buyer.

I agree $25/card is a good price since you don't have to hunt them all down. However, the hunt is half of the fun for me.

[veleno45]

Originally Posted by I Only Smoke 4 the Cards

However, the hunt is half of the fun for me.

+1

[MikeGarcia]

Originally Posted by thecatspajamas

I like the second solution. I think it would be cheaper though for Ken to just always talk like a robot when in public and then have his phones hooked to a Speak And Spell programmed to answer the phone with a single phrase: LEAVE ME ALONE



[In reading back over that, I realize that my solution makes no sense at all after my edits and re-edits, as Ken could just record his own voice saying LEAVE ME ALONE. You see, I started out with him talking like a robot and then buying robots to man the phones, then added the Speak and Spell option as a further cost-saving measure, but then that seemed too convoluted for a quick joke so I pared it back, and now I come off like some weird and out of touch dude with an avatar that nobody recognizes, which I also now realize is not helped by this added dialogue.]

[ZachS]

[thecatspajamas]

You gentlemen sure know how to make a feller feel welcome. I take back what I said about leavin' me alone. A tip of the ol' battered top hat to you both.