Pwcc Csg partnership

[parkplace33]

https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/page...-trading-cards

Interesting news…

[mrreality68]

interesting news but not for me and not a big PWCC person and their partners are not PSA or SGC so they have a ways to go.

[Kidnapped18]

Very interesting! Process sounds super simple, super easy...hope it works!
And this is how CSG gains marketshare...

[Johnny630]

Another reason for me to never buy a CSG card.

[Exhibitman]

CSG = Contemptible Sleazy Greedheads.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Something very Joe Isuzu about this:

No paperwork. Forget the forms. PWCC will handle the entire process with CCG. You will only need to follow the submission process on PWCC’s website.

Don't generate records of what you send us, trust us...

[Leon]

Interesting business model.
.

[cgjackson222]

Pretty crazy that the $20 includes shipping to PWCC, then CSG, and back to PWCC especially when you consider PWCC is located in Oregon and CSG in Florida (maybe they have a west coast presence)???

For SGC, its $15 for the shipping alone, regardless of where you ship from.

To make the economics work, it sounds like CSG is going to have grade awfully quickly. And it sound like they are promising to do that anyway with their 10-business turnaround.

Seems too easy.

[G1911]

I think that partnering with a major seller like PWCC is a wonderful way to build credibility and signal to collectors that they won't suffer the same pitfalls and corruption of PSA and their other established competitors.

[bigfish]

Originally Posted by G1911

I think that partnering with a major seller like PWCC is a wonderful way to build credibility and signal to collectors that they won't suffer the same pitfalls and corruption of PSA and their other established competitors.

That would make sense is PWCC was squeaky clean. Hahahaha

This is a risk for CGC.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Leon

So this grading service is only if you are consigning raw cards to PWCC for auction? And then they charge 20 dollars, for the grading, out of your proceeds. Interesting business model.
.

Actually, and this has nothing to do with liking or disliking CSG or any other TPG, a flat rate grading fee on all cards, across all genres, is exactly what all TPGs should be offering, and only should be offering. Anything else where they charge more based on a card's value implies an intrinsic bias and conflict of interest on the part of the grading company providing such services and their opinion.

Now if they charge more for certain items because they are larger than regular cards and the additional fee is to cover the added cost of a larger or specialized holder, that is different. Otherwise, you should expect the exact same level of service, treatment, and grading for all cards submitted. In other words, they should treat and handle the grading of a 1989 Topps Gregg Jefferies rookie exactly the same as they would for a 1952 Topps Mantle card. And if they handle, treat, and grade them both the same, the service should be priced EXACTLY THE SAME AS WELL!

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by bigfish

That would make sense is PWCC was squeaky clean. Hahahaha

This is a risk for CGC.

Reminds of me of Damn Yankees. Maybe CGC is selling their soul to PWCC for a piece of the pie?

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Something very Joe Isuzu about this:

No paperwork. Forget the forms. PWCC will handle the entire process with CCG. You will only need to follow the submission process on PWCC’s website.

Don't generate records of what you send us, trust us...

I assume there are already records and such documenting the cards being consigned for auction. This sounds like it would be similar to people consigning raw cards to you and your auctions, and at their request, you are handling the grading of those cards for them in preparation of the auction. If you already have things outlined and spelled out in the consignment paperwork, it seems like having your consignors doing a whole other set of grading paperwork is extra work, and a bit redundant, which is likely something your consignors would rather not have to deal with.

And since it seems that graded cards typically do better than raw cards in auctions, doing something like this is sort of a win-win for everyone involved then. The consignors get higher prices, the AH gets higher commissions, and the bidders get already graded cards.

I would not have been surprised to hear of CSG eventually offering a similar type of service somehow in conjunction with their partnership as Ebay's authenticator. And that still may happen. Overall, seems like a somewhat savvy move on the part of CGC/CSG to get in front of all the other TPGs as a choice for someone having their raw cards graded. And the more CSG graded cards getting out there, they more they are recognized and the faster they are accepted by everyone in the hobby.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by BobC

I assume there are already records and such documenting the cards being consigned for auction. This sounds like it would be similar to people consigning raw cards to you and your auctions, and at their request, you are handling the grading of those cards for them in preparation of the auction. If you already have things outlined and spelled out in the consignment paperwork, it seems like having your consignors doing a whole other set of grading paperwork is extra work, and a bit redundant, which is likely something your consignors would rather not have to deal with.

And since it seems that graded cards typically do better than raw cards in auctions, doing something like this is sort of a win-win for everyone involved then. The consignors get higher prices, the AH gets higher commissions, and the bidders get already graded cards.y

I would not have been surprised to hear of CSG eventually offering a similar type of service somehow in conjunction with their partnership as Ebay's authenticator. And that still may happen. Overall, seems like a somewhat savvy move on the part of CGC/CSG to get in front of all the other TPGs as a choice for someone having their raw cards graded. And the more CSG graded cards getting out there, they moree they are recognized and the faster they are accepted by everyone in the hobby.

What about PWCC's reputation for pushing altered cards through grading? Is this a concern?

[chalupacollects]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

What about PWCC's reputation for pushing altered cards through grading? Is this a concern?

Me? I would say yes!

[kmac32]

Just got a submission back from CSG of S74 silks. Just wanted them in slabs to protect the cards and felt that the service was actually fair and good. Cards were graded for $20 whick was certainly better that the armed robbery that SGC tried to pull off on the same cards that I told them to send back as the charges they wanted were ridiculous. i will still use SGC for normal submissions but for what I was looking for, this was a cost reasonable alternative.

[BobC]

For those of you making sarcastic and joking remarks about teaming up with PWWC, my recollection was of PWCC using other TPGs in the past, and the outcome and downside of all that being outlined in Peter's recent thread about the 3-year anniversary of the scandal. Also, PWCC getting booted from Ebay supposedly had little/nothing to do with who they worked with in the TPG field either.

So, for the few of you close-minded souls who choose to chastise and possibly punish CSG for such a partnership, I think they'll be okay living without your business as their goal is to get the most CSG graded cards out in the marketplace as fast as they can, not to make any of you happy because you hate PWCC.

And anyway, once that CSG graded card gets sold through PWCC, the next time it comes to market likely no one is going to remember, or even care, that it originally sold through PWCC. And even then, just because PWCC sells a CSG graded card doesn't mean that PWCC was who submitted it to CSG for grading. Whoever consigned it to PWCC for sale/auction could have acquired the card already graded, or submitted it to CSG for grading themselves, before then consigning it to PWCC. And I'm going to go out on a limb and guess graded cards from all the other TPGs are going to continue to be sold right alongside CSG's graded cards on PWCC's platform going forward. So, I guess you should be mad and make sarcastic and derogatory comments about all those other TPG's as well for allowing their graded cards to be sold by PWCC as well.

[bnorth]

Another huge leap forward by 2 leaders in the hobby. Because of moves like this the future of the hobby looks amazing going forward.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

Reminds of me of Damn Yankees. Maybe CGC is selling their soul to PWCC for a piece of the pie?

Aren't they authenticating for ebay now? That would seem a significant source of revenue.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Aren't they authenticating for ebay now? That would seem a significant source of revenue.

they sure are...I'm not sure why they'd want to get involved with the likes of PWCC. Disclaimer I did not read the story/link?

[Carter08]

Originally Posted by BobC

For those of you making sarcastic and joking remarks about teaming up with PWWC, my recollection was of PWCC using other TPGs in the past, and the outcome and downside of all that being outlined in Peter's recent thread about the 3-year anniversary of the scandal. Also, PWCC getting booted from Ebay supposedly had little/nothing to do with who they worked with in the TPG field either.

So, for the few of you close-minded souls who choose to chastise and possibly punish CSG for such a partnership, I think they'll be okay living without your business as their goal is to get the most CSG graded cards out in the marketplace as fast as they can, not to make any of you happy because you hate PWCC.

And anyway, once that CSG graded card gets sold through PWCC, the next time it comes to market likely no one is going to remember, or even care, that it originally sold through PWCC. And even then, just because PWCC sells a CSG graded card doesn't mean that PWCC was who submitted it to CSG for grading. Whoever consigned it to PWCC for sale/auction could have acquired the card already graded, or submitted it to CSG for grading themselves, before then consigning it to PWCC. And I'm going to go out on a limb and guess graded cards from all the other TPGs are going to continue to be sold right alongside CSG's graded cards on PWCC's platform going forward. So, I guess you should be mad and make sarcastic and derogatory comments about all those other TPG's as well for allowing their graded cards to be sold by PWCC as well.

Bob, the masses have made up their minds. Certain houses like pwcc are evil. Certain others like REA are pristine despite lawsuits against them and closing mishaps.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Carter08

Bob, the masses have made up their minds. Certain houses like pwcc are evil. Certain others like REA are pristine despite lawsuits against them and closing mishaps.

The masses have pretty good reason, even if it isn't totally black and white.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

they sure are...I'm not sure why they'd want to get involved with the likes of PWCC. Disclaimer I did not read the story/link?

LOL I had no idea ebay forced sellers to send them GRADED cards worth over 2K. What a joke.

[scgaynor]

"a flat rate grading fee on all cards, across all genres, is exactly what all TPGs should be offering, and only should be offering. Anything else where they charge more based on a card's value implies an intrinsic bias and conflict of interest on the part of the grading company providing such services and their opinion."

This! I do personal property appraisals as part of my business. I could not charge a person more for my service based on the value of their item as it would be a conflict.

Scott

[G1911]

Originally Posted by BobC

For those of you making sarcastic and joking remarks about teaming up with PWWC, my recollection was of PWCC using other TPGs in the past, and the outcome and downside of all that being outlined in Peter's recent thread about the 3-year anniversary of the scandal. Also, PWCC getting booted from Ebay supposedly had little/nothing to do with who they worked with in the TPG field either.

So, for the few of you close-minded souls who choose to chastise and possibly punish CSG for such a partnership, I think they'll be okay living without your business as their goal is to get the most CSG graded cards out in the marketplace as fast as they can, not to make any of you happy because you hate PWCC.

And anyway, once that CSG graded card gets sold through PWCC, the next time it comes to market likely no one is going to remember, or even care, that it originally sold through PWCC. And even then, just because PWCC sells a CSG graded card doesn't mean that PWCC was who submitted it to CSG for grading. Whoever consigned it to PWCC for sale/auction could have acquired the card already graded, or submitted it to CSG for grading themselves, before then consigning it to PWCC. And I'm going to go out on a limb and guess graded cards from all the other TPGs are going to continue to be sold right alongside CSG's graded cards on PWCC's platform going forward. So, I guess you should be mad and make sarcastic and derogatory comments about all those other TPG's as well for allowing their graded cards to be sold by PWCC as well.

I agree, it is the people making sarcastic remarks about the new graders making a public partnership with the most openly criminal enterprise in the hobby that are the real problem.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

What about PWCC's reputation for pushing altered cards through grading? Is this a concern?

Pete,

It absolutely is, but why is there so much anger and resentment apparently being directed at CSG, who haven't even done anything with PWCC yet? Just because they are agreeing to grade cards submitted through PWCC doesn't automatically mean they are in cahoots with anyone in passing altered cards as something they're not. There are various reasons I can see and think of to at least give CSG the benefit of the doubt, and not just wholly condemn them right out of the box simply by guilt from association with PWCC.

1. CSG's goal is to get their graded cards out in the marketplace, and accepted and respected by the hobby. It is not to boost their bottom line by falling in with parties known for providing altered items, and then committing fraud by knowingly concealing such alterations from the public.

2.. Their parent company, CCG, already has I believe the largest and most respected comic book and currency grading/authenticating companies in the world as part of their holdings. Why would they ever in their right minds want to then take any chance of tarnishing those existing businesses and reputations by suddenly having this latest venture of theirs knowingly become involved with known fraudsters, and actively take part in supporting or facilitating such fraud?

3. I would have to believe CSG is fully aware of the past accusations and issues directed at PWCC and some parties they have worked with, as well as the FBI investigations supposedly that have (Still are?) taken place. I would think (hope) that CSG had seen fit to do enough due diligence before entering into this new venture with PWCC so that they didn't just start this new service up, only to have the FBI come knocking on their door a few weeks later to confiscate suspected fraudulent items, and inform them they had shut PWCC down and indicted and arrested various PWCC personnel for criminal activities.

4. And because of the past accusations and continued scrutiny/ongoing investigations, I would find it extremely hard to believe that if PWCC had ever been involved with any fraudulent alteration activities in the past, that they would not now still be knowingly involved and continuing those same fraudulent activities, and to have somehow gotten CSG to be an accessory to them.

5. As I mentioned in an earlier post, CSG charging a flat fee for grading services removes a bias and potential conflict of interest. In the past, and really still today, a TPG that charges a grading fee based on the value of a card would have a possible incentive to overlook alterations and give cards high numeric grades, thus increasing the card's value, and as a result how much they get paid for grading it. If CSG charges a simple flat rate for all cards, that removes an incentive for them to willingly/knowingly give any altered card a higher numeric grade, and thus a higher than deserved value.


The main thing to watch for is that once this new program is up and running, how good are CSG and their graders at detecting and reporting doctored and altered cards? We already know through the BODA efforts that tons of altered and doctored cards have gotten past graders and into numerically graded slabs of all the major past and present TPGs. Maybe with the exception of CSG, I honestly don't know. Have the BODA guys detected and reported any doctored/altered cards in CSG slabs yet? Regardless, I think that with the apparent tools and abilities of these card doctors today, it is inevitable that some altered cards will continue to get into numerically graded slabs of all the TPGs, including CSG. The test for CSG will be if after partnering up with PWCC there starts to be an inordinate number of altered cards being discovered in CSG slabs sold through PWCC's marketplace. I hope not, for various reasons given above, and for CSG's sake.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

they sure are...I'm not sure why they'd want to get involved with the likes of PWCC. Disclaimer I did not read the story/link?

Because just authenticating cards via Ebay doesn't get more graded cards in CSG slabs out there in the hobby. Partnering to grade cards with PWCC will.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by G1911

I agree, it is the people making sarcastic remarks about the new graders making a public partnership with the most openly criminal enterprise in the hobby that are the real problem.

And there is one of them, right on cue......................

[G1911]

Originally Posted by BobC

And there is one of them, right on cue......................

Yes, how dare I make fun of the biggest scammers and card alterers in the hobby making a deal with a grading company. This is outrageous, I tell you.

Or, just maybe, maybe there's something wrong with the people who think it's the people who don't like fraud that are the annoying ones...

[Peter_Spaeth]

There’s a saying that people judge you by the company you keep. Not where I would be going, if I was CSG.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by BobC

For those of you making sarcastic and joking remarks about teaming up with PWWC, my recollection was of PWCC using other TPGs in the past, and the outcome and downside of all that being outlined in Peter's recent thread about the 3-year anniversary of the scandal. Also, PWCC getting booted from Ebay supposedly had little/nothing to do with who they worked with in the TPG field either.

So, for the few of you close-minded souls who choose to chastise and possibly punish CSG for such a partnership, I think they'll be okay living without your business as their goal is to get the most CSG graded cards out in the marketplace as fast as they can, not to make any of you happy because you hate PWCC.

And anyway, once that CSG graded card gets sold through PWCC, the next time it comes to market likely no one is going to remember, or even care, that it originally sold through PWCC. And even then, just because PWCC sells a CSG graded card doesn't mean that PWCC was who submitted it to CSG for grading. Whoever consigned it to PWCC for sale/auction could have acquired the card already graded, or submitted it to CSG for grading themselves, before then consigning it to PWCC. And I'm going to go out on a limb and guess graded cards from all the other TPGs are going to continue to be sold right alongside CSG's graded cards on PWCC's platform going forward. So, I guess you should be mad and make sarcastic and derogatory comments about all those other TPG's as well for allowing their graded cards to be sold by PWCC as well.

Bob, you are missing the point. PWCC on eBay was one of the sleaziest operations in the hobby. Heaven to shill bidders and card doctors of all ilks. Them getting the boot from eBay was a decision to disassociate from an enterprise with a horrible track record of harming collectors. CSG, unfortunately, has decided that the honor is in the dollar. To me, it is the equivalent of deciding to work with a drug dealer: just because you aren't slinging crack rock doesn't excuse a decision to work with someone who is. Just ewww.

IMO also a bad corporate PR move for CSG. if you lay down with dogs you're gonna get up with fleas. I was an early submitter to CSG and was considering further subs. Now, not.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Well, Adam, as we know it’s not at all unusual in the hobby to choose money over integrity. It’s hard for me to understand why a new grading company that seems to be off to a decent start otherwise would go this direction. I guess time will tell.

[Lorewalker]

Wow! Bold move by CSG. Given their affiliation with eBay to now hook up with PWCC who was booted from the site is super puzzling. Does this imply that neither SGC nor PSA are taking subs, directly, from PWCC due to the scandal? Maybe this is foreshadowing that PWCC will be invited back to eBay?

I was not a buyer of the CSG product but knowing they are welcoming PWCC's subs means I never need to consider looking at a CSG card.

Literally each week that goes by I realize I really have less and less of a real understanding of the industry.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Carter08

Bob, the masses have made up their minds. Certain houses like pwcc are evil. Certain others like REA are pristine despite lawsuits against them and closing mishaps.

James,

I am very much aware of that, and exactly why I have once again tried to use intelligent logic and reason to explain a point on this forum. I am no particular fan of PWCC, and have never been to any of their sites. I am a collector myself, and don't really trust or have great faith in any of the TPGs. At least with CSG, here was a new TPG coming from an already well-respected grading company in other genres, apparently with a lot of money and backing behind them. With all the bitching and crap you hear on here all the time about all the TPGs out there for cards, you would think that maybe, just maybe, people would give this new grading company a chance to see if they can be better than what we've had before.

I'm at least willing to give them the benefit of the doubt to see how they actually do and perform, before passing judgement. Unfortunately, in today's world a vast majority of people don't seem to be able to do that.

I'm just looking at CSG from the business side of things, and seeing how they are trying to make fairly quick and decisive moves to get their name and slabbed cards out into the hobby market as much and as quickly as possible right now. They obviously realize that with the pandemic and issues all the TPGs have faced recently, there is some discontent and vulnerability in the TPG ranks, directly related to huge backlogs and price increases, among other things. Moves like partnering with Ebay, and now PWCC, are looking to take advantage of this current vulnerability and gather more interest and acceptance in the hobby for CSG, by getting their slabbed cards out there. Ultimately, their goal is likely to grab as big a chunk of the TPG market share as they can, before all the other TPGs can finally get past their issues and back to closer to more normal, pre-pandemic operating conditions and pricing. My guess is PWCC is not the first choice CSG would pick to do something like this with, but given the time frame and what I'm guessing they're ultimately trying to do, they'll take the opportunity for now.

And I don't know if CSG is the one actively out there approaching these other businesses for such partnerships. Initially, the fact that CSG has now landed a second unique TPG partnering deal, it would make one think that they must be the ones initiating such conversations. But on second thought, given PWCC's also rather unique current position, I can also see them approaching CSG with this new concept as a way for PWCC to gain back some acceptance and market share themselves. Especially with some of the more recent things Ebay has been doing, as well as the new 1099 reporting standards, and so on. How many members have I recently heard on here saying they no longer care for, or want to have anything to do, with Ebay? Well now, someone with a lot of ungraded cards they need to quickly sell may just consider PWCC after all because they can get them graded and sold without having to wait for months for grading, and at a flat, per card rate that is about as low as can now be found on an everyday basis.

And I wouldn't be at all surprised or shocked if CSG ends up in some other partnership deal with someone else down the road. Will be interesting to see what they do next to expand their brand.

But as for the masses having made up their minds, a lot of people are only continuing to fool themselves if they think the people on Net54 make up the "masses" in the collecting community. Our numbers are probably more comparable to a pimple on an elephant's ass in terms of how much of the overall card hobby community our active members comprise. Put it this way, if the masses really did hate PWCC that much and wanted nothing more to do with them, they wouldn't still be around today. And yet, they are! So much for the masses!

[BobC]

Originally Posted by G1911

Yes, how dare I make fun of the biggest scammers and card alterers in the hobby making a deal with a grading company. This is outrageous, I tell you.

Or, just maybe, maybe there's something wrong with the people who think it's the people who don't like fraud that are the annoying ones...

I'm not saying anything good about PWCC, I'm just against people blatantly throwing CSG under the bus for accepting business through PWCC. You make it out like they (CSG) are guilty of something when they haven't done anything wrong yet, at least not as far as I know. I am not for fraud at all, but maybe instead of getting mad or upset at CSG for accepting work from consignors who decided to use PWCC, maybe you and others of a similar bent should be directing more of your anger and disgust at the people who still chose to consign through PWCC. Or is it automatically assumed that card doctors are the only people still consigning and selling through PWCC, and thus every single card being sold by PWCC has been doctored or altered somehow?

You can make all the infantile and idiotic comments you want, and personally insult me all you like. I never said or implied that people that don't like fraud are annoying, so don't go trying to put words in my mouth. But it is annoying whenever someone even mentions PWCC and all bashing starts anew. I've heard it 1,000 times already, and get it, you all hate PWCC and think they suck. Great, I'm with you, but can we talk about something else already?

I'm not necessarily a big fan of CSG partnering with PWCC either, but given the circumstances and current situation in the hobby and with TPGs, I can on some levels understand where CSG may be coming from in deciding to do business through PWCC. And I was hoping to possibly have at least a semi-intelligent and adult conversation about that aspect of it without the conversation digressing into a PWCC bashing session, and the automatic inclusion of CSG in the bashing simply because they agreed to accept grading submissions from consignors through PWCC.

That is exactly why I was purposely proactive in commenting like I did about sarcastic and joking comments being made about the partnership, I was hoping to cut off the stupid statements from being directed at CSG since they haven't really done anything wrong yet that I'm aware of. I should have known better though, there always seems to be someone that will troll what could otherwise an intelligent discussion here on the forum. I was interested to see what others thought of the reasoning I put forth as to maybe why CSG decided to go forward with this partnership anyway, and the different things that may or may not have influenced them. But noooooo! It unfortunately started turning into a PWCC is bad and stupid, so therefore if CSG decides to work with them CSG is now automatically bad and stupid too thread.

So, sorry you didn't fully understand and comprehend what I was trying to say, and somehow think I'm supporting PWCC and fraud. But that ignorance is on you. I'm not, and never have or will support fraud, and those who perpetrate it. But maybe, just maybe, if CSG starts looking at these submissions coming through PWCC, they'll pay more attention to what they're looking at and catch more of these altered and doctored card attempts than their predecessors ever did. Now wouldn't that be nice?

Despite all the hatred and anger directed at PWCC, they're still around, and it doesn't appear they'll be disappearing or going anywhere anytime soon. So suck it up and deal with it! You can bitch and moan about PWCC all you want, but why not at least give CSG a chance before bashing them in as well? This is exactly the kind of crap I feared would be coming out in this thread instead of a more positive conversation as to why CSG decided to do this. And thus, the close-minded minds appear to rule the day again.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Bob, you are missing the point. PWCC on eBay was one of the sleaziest operations in the hobby. Heaven to shill bidders and card doctors of all ilks. Them getting the boot from eBay was a decision to disassociate from an enterprise with a horrible track record of harming collectors. CSG, unfortunately, has decided that the honor is in the dollar. To me, it is the equivalent of deciding to work with a drug dealer: just because you aren't slinging crack rock doesn't excuse a decision to work with someone who is. Just ewww.

IMO also a bad corporate PR move for CSG. if you lay down with dogs you're gonna get up with fleas. I was an early submitter to CSG and was considering further subs. Now, not.

Adam,

I don't disagree it seems like a dumb move. Was just hoping it wouldn't immediately descend to just another bashing thread, but so much for hope. I spelled out some points that I thought might have been behind CSG's decision to go forward with this partnership despite PWCC's bad rep, but no one has brought up anything I put forth yet.

I still see CSG struggling to gain recognition and hobby acceptance. It would seem to me that the more graded cards in their holders they can get out there circulating in the hobby, the faster they'll get the recognition and acceptance they're looking for. If they had decided to pass up on this deal with PWCC, exactly what else would you suggest they have done to quickly ramp up their grading of cards then? In pretty much all of the auctions I've been looking at lately, I'm not seeing CSG graded cards very often, if at all even. So, what are they supposed to do, not go with PWCC who'll get their name and graded cards out in the hobby? Will this stop you and others from ever buying a CSG graded card then? That was what at least one other poster in this thread seemed to imply. And if that is the case, I have to then ask if you and others who may now be against buying CSG graded cards, due to this new CSG/PWCC partnership, are still buying any PSA graded cards? Because if memory serves, wasn't PSA formerly the grading company that PWCC was primarily running all the altered cards they were getting consigned from the card doctors through for grading? I would sincerely hope not. Because if people are still buying and owning PSA cards, while completely ignoring CSG cards, that would indicate to me that those people are hypocrites.

Bottom line I believe is that CSG doesn't give a rat's ass what you, I, or the rest of Net54 think. We don't speak for the entire hobby community, and they need to take care of their business, not worry about a bunch of whiny malcontents like us.

As I had previously stated, I think the real test will come after CSG starts churning out submissions, and whether or not the BODA guys, or others, start discovering more and more altered cards in CSG graded slabs. Until then, I'll defer final judgement, and at least try to give CSG some benefit of the doubt. I think that is only fair. But if others don't, so be it.

[toledo_mudhen]

Having read this thread - I found myself stumbling onto the PWCC site for the 1st time in a couple years.

Fixed Price listings are absolutely crazy high.

Kinda made me wanna box up about 200 pounds of stuff and have them sell for me.

[Carter08]

Originally Posted by toledo_mudhen

Having read this thread - I found myself stumbling onto the PWCC site for the 1st time in a couple years.

Fixed Price listings are absolutely crazy high.

Kinda made me wanna box up about 200 pounds of stuff and have them sell for me.

I think the fixed prices are set by the individual sellers, not pwcc. Not positive though.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by kmac32

Just got a submission back from CSG of S74 silks. Just wanted them in slabs to protect the cards and felt that the service was actually fair and good. Cards were graded for $20 whick was certainly better that the armed robbery that SGC tried to pull off on the same cards that I told them to send back as the charges they wanted were ridiculous. i will still use SGC for normal submissions but for what I was looking for, this was a cost reasonable alternative.

Ken,

That's cool. Didn't know they graded silks. What did you have graded, white silks, colored silks, or both? And if you did have some white silks graded, did any have the advertising backs still attached?

And of course I'm curious as to how good a job you think they did in the grading. I know for the white version silks, if SGC grades one without the advertising back still attached, they will only give the silk an "A" authentic grade. The back has to still be attached to get a numeric grade. And of course, since the white ad-backed silks were normally folded when put into cigarette packs, SGC graded them accordingly due to the creases across the middle. Would love to hear what you thought of CSG's grades they gave you then.

[ullmandds]

BOB

I harbor no anger or resentment towards csg? I've mentioned numerous times that i'd give them a try to grade things like t202 end panels, cut up strips from panels, and some other rare oddball things i have that noone else will grade.


You claim to be advocating for folks to give csg a fair shake yet your words sound more like someone advocating for them with an "interest" in their success?

You seem unconvinced of pwcc's "indiscretions" of the past which have been proven ad nauseum.

5. As i mentioned in an earlier post, csg charging a flat fee for grading services removes a bias and potential conflict of interest. In the past, and really still today, a tpg that charges a grading fee based on the value of a card would have a possible incentive to overlook alterations and give cards high numeric grades, thus increasing the card's value, and as a result how much they get paid for grading it. If csg charges a simple flat rate for all cards, that removes an incentive for them to willingly/knowingly give any altered card a higher numeric grade, and thus a higher than deserved value.

I think this is fantastic.


pwcc has gotten many cards past sgc/pwcc/beckett in the past...why would they not be able to do the same with csg?

I harbor no ill will towards csg...but i do towards pwcc. And to some of us...maybe not the masses...but to me there are more important things than "the cards!"

[G1911]

Originally Posted by BobC

I'm not saying anything good about PWCC, I'm just against people blatantly throwing CSG under the bus for accepting business through PWCC. You make it out like they (CSG) are guilty of something when they haven't done anything wrong yet, at least not as far as I know. I am not for fraud at all, but maybe instead of getting mad or upset at CSG for accepting work from consignors who decided to use PWCC, maybe you and others of a similar bent should be directing more of your anger and disgust at the people who still chose to consign through PWCC. Or is it automatically assumed that card doctors are the only people still consigning and selling through PWCC, and thus every single card being sold by PWCC has been doctored or altered somehow?

You can make all the infantile and idiotic comments you want, and personally insult me all you like. I never said or implied that people that don't like fraud are annoying, so don't go trying to put words in my mouth. But it is annoying whenever someone even mentions PWCC and all bashing starts anew. I've heard it 1,000 times already, and get it, you all hate PWCC and think they suck. Great, I'm with you, but can we talk about something else already?

I'm not necessarily a big fan of CSG partnering with PWCC either, but given the circumstances and current situation in the hobby and with TPGs, I can on some levels understand where CSG may be coming from in deciding to do business through PWCC. And I was hoping to possibly have at least a semi-intelligent and adult conversation about that aspect of it without the conversation digressing into a PWCC bashing session, and the automatic inclusion of CSG in the bashing simply because they agreed to accept grading submissions from consignors through PWCC.

That is exactly why I was purposely proactive in commenting like I did about sarcastic and joking comments being made about the partnership, I was hoping to cut off the stupid statements from being directed at CSG since they haven't really done anything wrong yet that I'm aware of. I should have known better though, there always seems to be someone that will troll what could otherwise an intelligent discussion here on the forum. I was interested to see what others thought of the reasoning I put forth as to maybe why CSG decided to go forward with this partnership anyway, and the different things that may or may not have influenced them. But noooooo! It unfortunately started turning into a PWCC is bad and stupid, so therefore if CSG decides to work with them CSG is now automatically bad and stupid too thread.

So, sorry you didn't fully understand and comprehend what I was trying to say, and somehow think I'm supporting PWCC and fraud. But that ignorance is on you. I'm not, and never have or will support fraud, and those who perpetrate it. But maybe, just maybe, if CSG starts looking at these submissions coming through PWCC, they'll pay more attention to what they're looking at and catch more of these altered and doctored card attempts than their predecessors ever did. Now wouldn't that be nice?

Despite all the hatred and anger directed at PWCC, they're still around, and it doesn't appear they'll be disappearing or going anywhere anytime soon. So suck it up and deal with it! You can bitch and moan about PWCC all you want, but why not at least give CSG a chance before bashing them in as well? This is exactly the kind of crap I feared would be coming out in this thread instead of a more positive conversation as to why CSG decided to do this. And thus, the close-minded minds appear to rule the day again.

What's infantile is your 6 paragraph screed of anger and detest over a single line sarcastic remark about a grading company hopping into bed with the fraudsters best known for sneaking frauds past grading companies. All you want to do is bitch about people who think that this is a bad idea? No shit, not many people will think CSG choosing to publicly align with the graded card fraudsters is positive. Why would they? Good luck with that hot take. Take some of your own advice...

[Yoda]

If both sides play it straight, this move might have a small market impression. IMO, the key will be the expertise and professionalism of SCG graders to determine which cards have been worked on and graded accordingly before ending up in a PWCC auction. There are so many newbie graders out there now that may not have faced some of the nuanced doctoring done by slippery submitters.
The pricing structure, however, is very attractive if you want an SGC graded card in a PWCC auction.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Yoda

If both sides play it straight, this move might have a small market impression. IMO, the key will be the expertise and professionalism of SCG graders to determine which cards have been worked on and graded accordingly before ending up in a PWCC auction. There are so many newbie graders out there now that may not have faced some of the nuanced doctoring done by slippery submitters.
The pricing structure, however, is very attractive if you want an SGC graded card in a PWCC auction.

It is CSG not SGC.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Remember when anonymous grading -- that is, the notion that the graders didn't know whose cards they were grading -- was still at least an ideal? Once that's out the window, when major customers are involved, it's hard not to have some degree of cynicism about the process. So CSG signs what must be for them a major deal with PWCC of all people, and we expect CSG to grade the cards in an unbiased way? Well, OK, maybe.

[Yoda]

Originally Posted by bnorth

It is CSG not SGC.

Typo.

[RL]

I do not think this arrangement will last long.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by RL

arraignment

I see what you did there

[RL]

Originally Posted by G1911

I see what you did there

typo typo typo

[BobC]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

BOB

I harbor no anger or resentment towards csg? I've mentioned numerous times that i'd give them a try to grade things like t202 end panels, cut up strips from panels, and some other rare oddball things i have that noone else will grade.


You claim to be advocating for folks to give csg a fair shake yet your words sound more like someone advocating for them with an "interest" in their success?

You seem unconvinced of pwcc's "indiscretions" of the past which have been proven ad nauseum.

5. As i mentioned in an earlier post, csg charging a flat fee for grading services removes a bias and potential conflict of interest. In the past, and really still today, a tpg that charges a grading fee based on the value of a card would have a possible incentive to overlook alterations and give cards high numeric grades, thus increasing the card's value, and as a result how much they get paid for grading it. If csg charges a simple flat rate for all cards, that removes an incentive for them to willingly/knowingly give any altered card a higher numeric grade, and thus a higher than deserved value.

I think this is fantastic.


pwcc has gotten many cards past sgc/pwcc/beckett in the past...why would they not be able to do the same with csg?

I harbor no ill will towards csg...but i do towards pwcc. And to some of us...maybe not the masses...but to me there are more important things than "the cards!"

Pete,

I am not advocating for them, and definitely have no interest, ownership, or any other connection with them or anyone working for, or in any way even distantly associated with them, whatsoever. I don't even own a CSG graded card at this point, and am not actively looking to acquire a card graded by them either.

I am also not pointing at you and in any way inferring that you personally are harboring any direct anger or resentment towards CSG either.

And where do you get the impression I am unconvinced about PWCC having committed past "discretions" from? What, because when the word "PWCC" was posted in a thread I didn't immediately align myself with the resident mob mentality and start shouting from the rooftops to crucify them? As you aptly put it, evidence of their past "indiscretions" has been posted and talked about on here and other platforms as nauseum. And that is just it, I have heard and seen all the ranting and raving about it to the point it just becomes nauseating to hear it over, and over , and over again. I was just holding out a bare sliver of hope that maybe, just for once, there could be a thread discussing a not well liked party or occurrence that could go beyond just regurgitating the same old things I've already heard a thousand times or more. Would have been nice to move past the obvious and try to intelligently and positively discuss different elements, such as why CSG would make such a move given the distrust and hate towards PWCC.

Thank you at least for bringing up the one point I made about the flat fee rate hopefully being a positive sign that CSG may be trying to do things right and in a better way than has been done before. The other points I mentioned were possible reasons, circumstances or contributing factors as to why CSG may have made the decision they did, and maybe some mitigating factors as too them not falling into the role of them just being a stooge to card doctors and the like. But apparently no one else really wants to have a serious, intelligent conversation about any of that.

I am fully aware, and had previously stated it, that there are altered cards in all TPG slabs out there. And also that the card doctors are, at least for now, so damn good at what they do that they are always going to be able to sneak some altered cards past ALL the TPGs. So, forgive me for foolishly holding out hope that maybe CSG is different and can do even a slightly better job at detecting and stopping altered cards and fraud in the hobby than the other TPGs before them. At least the unbiased flat grading fees are a start. And also forgive me for trying to view the hobby in a more positive light, and waiting till there is actual evidence and results to review before deciding to put down and bash someone else in the hobby for something they haven't even done yet.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by G1911

What's infantile is your 6 paragraph screed of anger and detest over a single line sarcastic remark about a grading company hopping into bed with the fraudsters best known for sneaking frauds past grading companies. All you want to do is bitch about people who think that this is a bad idea? No shit, not many people will think CSG choosing to publicly align with the graded card fraudsters is positive. Why would they? Good luck with that hot take. Take some of your own advice...

I made earlier comments to hopefully dispel and not have additional sarcastic remarks and jokes take over the thread so as to try and steer the discussion towards something more positive and productive, like reasoning behind CSG doing what on the surface appears to be a really bad decision. And yet almost immediately, here comes someone with a juvenile sarcastic comment just out of spite. There isn't anything more juvenile than that. Except maybe if you try to respond back to that person, and intentionally dumb down your comments so it is more on their level that they hopefully will understand, and they instead take that as you now being the juvenile because you're trying to communicate with them on a level they will comprehend. That is like being juvenile squared. Wow!

And as for being tedious in my rantings, you obviously find them to be that because you're from the close-minded and "I'm right and you're wrong!" school of thought. I really didn't want to hear the bitching and moaning about PWCC, so your immediate response is to come right back and make your sarcastic comment and shove it my face as a more or less "I'm going to do want I want, and you can't tell me what to do!" kind of statement. I wasn't trying to tell you what to do, just hoping the more adult side and thinking of people would prevail. My bad for continuing to hold out hope that might actually happen one day.