AH (PWCC) Reality Check Please

[Snapolit1]

I've alluded to this in prior threads and would now like a reality check from others, as my communications with the auction house owner have proved considerably less than satisfying.

For the first time ever I consigned a batch of 20 cards to an auction house. PWCC. Pursuant to VCP, from most recent sales the cards I consigned had a value of about $10,000. My total sales collected? $5,200.

The issue? My auctions closed at about 11 pm on Tuesday, Election Day. I think it was truly horrific business judgment to have an auction close that night. (No, I had no clue when I consigned them that the auction was closing that night.)

Am I being out of line in suggesting that this was an awful decision? Seriously, how many people were shopping for baseball cards as the Florida and Michigan results were dripping in. If you disagree and think I'm an ass, just say as much. Broadway theaters closed Tuesday night for a reason. I told them ahead of time this was a poor decision and unfortunately I was apparently vindicated.

Thoughts?

[bnorth]

Steve that does really suck for you. Yes I also think it was a horrible decision to end on election day. Not sure why they would do something that also cost them a lot of $.

[ullmandds]

Terrible timing indeed... but I believe Pwcc auctions are clearly listed as to their start dates... and with this you can figure the end dates.

[steve B]

Yeah, not the closing time I'd have chosen.

I've bought a few things that had similarly bad closing times. One closed at 8AM Easter morning.

I'm not sure you'll be able to get anything though. Which pretty much sucks.

Steve B

[Edwolf1963]

What's ironic is that they think it out enough to (usually) avoid Friday and Saturday auction closes for that same reason - typically bad days, lower traffic, distracted, weekend evenings, etc

[Snapolit1]

My auctions closed from about 11pm to 11:25 that night. It was just surreal.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

My auctions closed from about 11pm to 11:25 that night. It was just surreal.

In oh so many ways!

[bobbvc]

Originally Posted by bnorth

Steve that does really suck for you. Yes I also think it was a horrible decision to end on election day. Not sure why they would do something that also cost them a lot of $.

Yes, This.

[sycks22]

I had a $5k+ card sell on a Wednesday night at 1am est. Needless to say it didn't sell strong. I wasn't happy.

[lug-nut]

i agree not the brightest idea ... even NCIS did air on election night

[Stampsfan]

Agree Steve... I'd be pi$$ed too. That's a bit of a no brainer as to when to extrapolate them out to a closing date. And as you're consigning them, asking "Will my items be closing in the evening of the Federal Election?" would not be a question I would have thought of.

All we ever hear is how PWCC gets record prices; following them, it's somewhat selective.

[Leon]

It might have brought lower prices but most people, myself included, still snipe. So when I see a card I really want I snipe it. Very rarely do I bid at the end anymore.

[BruceinGa]

I agree with Leon, I snipe 90% of the time.

[Bliggity]

I recall they also had a prewar auction ending during the Superbowl earlier this year also. Maybe not exactly the same, but I did find it odd (and annoying as a bidder), and prices didn't seem as strong as they could have been. Doesn't seem to be a lot of foresight into the ending dates/times. I would certainly be frustrated as a consignor.

I don't think sniping programs can realistically help with this from the consignors' perspective because I think the percentage of eBay bidders who use them is probably still pretty small. Also, they can be tough to use during PWCC auctions because you can end up winning a bunch of items within a matter of seconds, which can be a problem from a budgeting perspective. I've used snipe programs a few times, but rarely during those types of constantly-ending auctions. If there were a program that let you cancel all remaining snipes once you hit a certain budget, then maybe...

.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Look at other high value cards that closed in the same time period, and see if they were affected too.

[1952boyntoncollector]

dup

[1952boyntoncollector]

i also have finding that many cards are just selling for less in general then they were a few month ago. Combine that with other circumstances like the election than thats a double down on potential sale price of less than hoped for.

However as leon said, you really only have snipers at the end of auctions...i put in my bids early (i say 3 hours before an auction ending is early to me) and the last second bids are snipers anyway that put their bids in already. However just losing out on one potential bidder is real $.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Yeah I imagine folks who bought a lot at the peak during the frenzy earlier this year may be a little regretful. A very nicely centered SGC 60 52T Mantle (and nice otherwise, a little tilt) just sold for 41K in Mile High, that seems well off the highs for 311s.

[Snapolit1]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

i also have finding that many cards are just selling for less in general then they were a few month ago. Combine that with other circumstances like the election than thats a double down on potential sale price of less than hoped for.

However as leon said, you really only have snipers at the end of auctions...i put in my bids early (i say 3 hours before an auction ending is early to me) and the last second bids are snipers anyway that put their bids in already. However just losing out on one potential bidder is real $.

Well, I've never used a sniping service and I doubt I am the only
one.

[tab]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

Well, I've never used a sniping service and I doubt I am the only
one.

I have never sniped. I always bid early and put another bid in at the end.

[botn]

The market continues to correct, just see Mile High's results, and election night did not help but I am sure there is someone else out there saying, "Auction ended 10:30 pm Wednesday night and the card arrives in my mailbox across the country on Saturday morning. Unreal. Best customer service in the business."

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by botn

The market continues to correct, just see Mile High's results, and election night did not help but I am sure there is someone else out there saying, "Auction ended 10:30 pm Wednesday night and the card arrives in my mailbox across the country on Saturday morning. Unreal. Best customer service in the business."

Thats good for the buyers to get good prices and fast delivery. As a consignor i would wait 3 months for my check if it meant i made money instead of getting a consignor check in a week on a net loss.

[Snapolit1]

Apparently Brent at PWCC is the sole person who can't grasp why ending auctions at 11pm as the most dramatic presidential election in our lifetimes unfolded (with undoubtedly the live largest television audience of any event in our nation's history) was a lousy idea that hurt his consigners. Oh well. Live and learn.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

Apparently Brent at PWCC is the sole person who can't grasp why ending auctions at 11pm as the most dramatic presidential election in our lifetimes unfolded (with undoubtedly the live largest television audience of any event in our nation's history) was a lousy idea that hurt his consigners. Oh well. Live and learn.

I know i expected the outcome to be known early on the election like all the pollsters....the outcome was certainly a surprise.

I have now stayed up past my bedtime for game 7 of the world series and the election..

[clydepepper]

Originally Posted by tab

I have never sniped. I always bid early and put another bid in at the end.

It's my habit to wait as long as possible before putting in a bid - I always thought THAT was sniping.

Could someone please explain to this dumb guy exactly what sniping is?


Thanks,
Raymond

By the way, if enough folks who have had scheduling issues with PWCC contact them with that issue, would they be open to changing that practice?

As devil's advocate, I would think that it may just be the 'luck of the draw' i.e. if they schedule 'round the clock, someone has to get the bad slots. IMO

p

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by clydepepper

It's my habit to wait as long as possible before putting in a bid - I always thought THAT was sniping.

Could someone please explain to this dumb guy exactly what sniping is?


Thanks,
Raymond

By the way, if enough folks who have had scheduling issues with PWCC contact them with that issue, would they be open to changing that practice?

As devil's advocate, I would think that it may just be the 'luck of the draw' i.e. if they schedule 'round the clock, someone has to get the bad slots. IMO

p

I manually snipe the same way you do. Most use a company to snipe for them and that is what most refer to as sniping.

[Exhibitman]

Raymond: sniping is using a service to execute a bid for you via computer program during the last few seconds of an auction. It avoids having a shill bidder eat away at a high bid you leave early and frees you from sitting on an auction close. It can save you a lot of money.

[Runscott]

Straight auctions on ebay generally succeed when the consignor shills his own auctions, the AH has employees who shill the auctions, or both.

I feel for you Steve, but it's a lesson all honest consignors have to learn once. Certainly the market price changes and the election night ending made it a triple-whammy for you (those two, plus your being honest).

[Luke]

Yeah, the timing wasn't great, but I was bidding in that auction and nothing that I wanted went for a bargain. I'm only talking about T206s, but the bidding seemed to be as strong as it normally is. I went big on a couple cards I really wanted and was surprised to be the under-bidder.

[Snapolit1]

RunScott - thanks. I'm willing to let this thread die, having said what I needed to get off my chest, but I just wanted to add that I discovered your eBay store a month or so ago and you have extremely interesting, cool stuff. If anyone on the board hasn't checked it out and followed it you are making a huge mistake. Lots of stores are the S.O.S. Your store is really cool.
Steve

[irishdenny]

Originally Posted by clydepepper

It's my habit to wait as long as possible before putting in a bid - I always thought THAT was sniping.

Could someone please explain to this dumb guy exactly what sniping is?


Thanks,
Raymond

By the way, if enough folks who have had scheduling issues with PWCC contact them with that issue, would they be open to changing that practice?

As devil's advocate, I would think that it may just be the 'luck of the draw' i.e. if they schedule 'round the clock, someone has to get the bad slots. IMO

p

https://www.gavelsnipe.com/log-in.php?ref=%2Fsnipe.php

Works Wit Ebay & Heritage...
" & It's Free Ray!"

[ValKehl]

I have never consigned to an eBay auction house, such as PWCC. But, from time to time, I have consigned items to catalog-internet auction houses as well as internet-only auction houses, and here is what I have learned from my experience in my efforts to better my return:

- There is no reason for me to pay a seller's commission in this day and age.
- If I feel my item is worth a 1/2 page exposure in the glossy auction catalog, I discuss this with the auction house, as I don't want a surprise later when my item only got a 1/5 page of catalog coverage.
- I make sure to confirm which auction my item will appear in. A month ago, I consigned an item to an auction house that had a catalog auction that ended very recently. At the time I consigned, I was told that my item could make it into this auction that just ended. I declined this, preferring to wait until their next catalog auction, because I knew that my item would either (1) appear in the last-minute-additions section at the end of the catalog, or (2) be included with the internet-only items that are not pictured in the catalog. IMHO, such inclusions are not going to maximize my return.
- I sometimes specify, or at least suggest, the starting bids for my items. If I am consigning a $1,000 item, I feel that a starting bid of $250 will imply that it is worth more than a staring bid of $100 will. I feel more strongly about this when I am consigning an obscure, low-demand item.
- I note on the consignment form info that I feel is very relevant and should be included in the catalog description of my item - e.g., rookie card, 1 of 2 graded, third highest graded, scarce type 3 back variation, scarce color variation, toughest common in the set, etc. Auction houses are not always aware of these nuances, and some auction houses don't do as much research as others.
Val

[PhillipAbbott79]

PWCC just lists items on Ebay. They do nothing special for you as a seller, and charge you more money on certain items than if you just listed it and shipped it yourself.

To think they reach more people listing their items in the exact same place and location as you, is absurd. People should only be using them if they are to lazy to list and ship their own items or you are willing to hire someone to do it for you, for whatever reason.

I have never seen any proof that their items generate more money for you as the seller. Not every card is created equal. Most of the time if a card brings more money...it was a nicer card than other ones in the same grade.

[Luke]

Originally Posted by PhillipAbbott79

PWCC just lists items on Ebay. They do nothing special for you as a seller, and charge you more money on certain items than if you just listed it and shipped it yourself.

To think they reach more people listing their items in the exact same place and location as you, is absurd. People should only be using them if they are to lazy to list and ship their own items or you are willing to hire someone to do it for you, for whatever reason.

I have never seen any proof that their items generate more money for you as the seller. Not every card is created equal. Most of the time if a card brings more money...it was a nicer card than other ones in the same grade.

This is incorrect. They get a ton of eyes on their auctions. You very rarely see anything falling through the cracks for crazy cheap price because so many people are watching the auction as items are ending. If I list 10 items to end on a Tuesday night, I guarantee you there are not hundreds of people watching my listings end. They have created a brand that people are loyal to. I very rarely find a bargain via PWCC but I find them elsewhere all the time.

[PhillipAbbott79]

They sell lots of items at regular list price or under every auction. Some go for more and some go for less. Just like any sale result you will find with your own listings.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by PhillipAbbott79

PWCC just lists items on Ebay. They do nothing special for you as a seller, and charge you more money on certain items than if you just listed it and shipped it yourself.

To think they reach more people listing their items in the exact same place and location as you, is absurd. People should only be using them if they are to lazy to list and ship their own items or you are willing to hire someone to do it for you, for whatever reason.

I have never seen any proof that their items generate more money for you as the seller. Not every card is created equal. Most of the time if a card brings more money...it was a nicer card than other ones in the same grade.

That is manifestly ridiculous. On major cards they blow away everyone except a few other regular and well-known ebay sellers. One can speculate as to the reasons why, and there has been plenty of discussion, but a tour of VCP confirms it without question.

[ajquigs]

That's lousy. While it's fair to say there is a "seller beware" aspect to what happened, I agree that PWCC - which I think is a well run business - could have been more mindful and avoided clashing with a truly unique event.
I could easily see the same thing happening to me as a seller and I'm sure I wouldn't be pleased.

[bobbyw8469]

I had a card sell for peanuts because Ebay had a "glitch" and no one was able to access the auctions and see the items, much less place a bid. I lost a bit, shipped the card and moved on. The winning buyer flipped it for a tidy profit. Comes with the territory. Just forget about it and move on.

[PhillipAbbott79]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

That is manifestly ridiculous. On major cards they blow away everyone except a few other regular and well-known ebay sellers. One can speculate as to the reasons why, and there has been plenty of discussion, but a tour of VCP confirms it without question.

There are auction prices all over the place that do not get recorded in VCP, and private sales.

You are entitled to that opinion. I can respect that.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by PhillipAbbott79

There are auction prices all over the place that do not get recorded in VCP, and private sales.

You are entitled to that opinion. I can respect that.

You were comparing PWCC to the option of listing and shipping yourself so VCP is certainly the relevant measure. There have been probably hundreds of threads or posts noting PWCC prices setting world records and just generally being extremely high. Sure, they don't set records on every card, but that doesn't negate the point.

[Beastmode]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

Apparently Brent at PWCC is the sole person who can't grasp why ending auctions at 11pm as the most dramatic presidential election in our lifetimes unfolded (with undoubtedly the live largest television audience of any event in our nation's history) was a lousy idea that hurt his consigners. Oh well. Live and learn.

I know you don't snipe, but I would guess over 70% of the bidders on your card are snipping.

As for having it end during the election, PWCC does give you a forecast when your auction will occur, and their client portal has that information. I also believe there is a window where you can make changes/comments on your listing.

Not saying it's right to hold the auction on that particular time, but it's a slippery slope to start picking which world events need to be blacked-out by PWCC for bidding. The inauguration? When Trump guts Obamacare? When Trump launches warheads into Syria? When Hillary's supporters river of tears flood California?

[PhillipAbbott79]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

You were comparing PWCC to the option of listing and shipping yourself so VCP is certainly the relevant measure. There have been probably hundreds of threads or posts noting PWCC prices setting world records and just generally being extremely high. Sure, they don't set records on every card, but that doesn't negate the point.

You state that they get big dollars for prime time cards. I didn't qualify what I said. You qualified your statement to what I said to prove that I am wrong, instead of proving it wrong in the fashion it was made. I didn't state anything about dollars. I said they don't get any more people to view their auctions than if I listed it myself. There is no VCP for number of views. Your entire argument is bunk.

Here is one fact: you would be unable to determine what a card would sell for had you sold in the same manner but yourself, compared to what they will sell it for in identical fashion since you can't list the same card 2 times at the same time, and selling one after the other would potentially eliminate competition on the card.

Do you regularly buy a big card on ebay then consign it to PWCC for them to relist it back on ebay because the margins are so much bigger? No. Of course not. I suppose there will be no changing your opinion and I do not have any intention to do so. Again, you are entitled to it, but to say what I said is "manifestly" ridiculous is...well ridiculous.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Then how do you explain the incredible numbers of cards consigned to PWCC by dealers and collectors across the hobby, surely it isn't just laziness, or stupidity? I would say it's expectation of a higher return borne out by experience.

And I would bet anything far more people view PWCC auctions then would view my auctions if we both listed a substantially identical set of cards. They do reach more people, it is not at all "absurd" to think so.

[Beastmode]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Then how do you explain the incredible numbers of cards consigned to PWCC by dealers and collectors across the hobby, surely it isn't just laziness, or stupidity? I would say it's expectation of a higher return borne out by experience.

++ PWCC gets more eyeballs by big hitters than any AH, iMO. Other than REA, who only shows twice a year, PWCC is clearly getting the attention.

[Luke]

Originally Posted by PhillipAbbott79

I said they don't get any more people to view their auctions than if I listed it myself.

This is clearly false though.

[PhillipAbbott79]

Again. I disagree. I am entitled to my opinion, which is based of actual experience of getting equal or less dollars by consigning with them.

Also, I don't know that it is clearly false. There is no proof that is the case. What you state is an opinion unless you have proof, that their reach is higher. If I am not mistaken you sell on Ebay. How come you don't consign if they clearly bring higher dollars.

No more speculation around why I may be incorrect is needed.

[Luke]

Yeah, I guess I can't prove it, so it isn't "clearly false". My language was a little strong, sorry about that. It just seems like common sense though. They create a huge auction event and get a ton of bids. It would be shocking and make no logical sense if the same amount of people are looking at one of my listings (in my opinion).

I would imagine we could look at their "page views" and compare them to a small-time dealer and see a large disparity. I'm not great with computers though, so I don't know how to do that or if it's possible.

Fair question about why I don't typically send items to auction. For one thing, I don't think they get the highest prices across the board. I think they get retail prices or very close, on average. Some small percentage of things go well below retail and a similar percentage set new record highs. Secondly, I like to have full control over the exact price I'll realize when something sells. I hate the feeling of selling something at auction and seeing it go super cheap, which is always a possibility when you send something to auction.

[PhillipAbbott79]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Then how do you explain the incredible numbers of cards consigned to PWCC by dealers and collectors across the hobby, surely it isn't just laziness, or stupidity? I would say it's expectation of a higher return borne out by experience.

And I would bet anything far more people view PWCC auctions then would view my auctions if we both listed a substantially identical set of cards. They do reach more people, it is not at all "absurd" to think so.

I will caveat it before you argue back and say that not all cards are created equal which is part of my argument, but still, here is a "big card" selling 1 to 2 weeks apart. It took me a few seconds to find it. I am sure I can find a lot more just like it.

http://www.milehighcardco.com/1909_1...-lot45542.aspx


http://www.ebay.com/itm/1909-11-T206...p2047675.l2557

[Snapolit1]

Thanks guys. Glad to know I am not losing my mind. Brent seems to have no idea what I'm possibly talking about. I guess some people can't say "gee sorry ....maybe we did fk that up." Lots of other places to deal with. As others pointed out, while they may provide a level of convenience, it ain't like they are marketing your cards for you. They do nothing more or less than what anyone else does listing cards on eBay. We can debate exactly how many more or less eyeballs they get, they are nothing more than a posting and mailing service.
I received a card from the same auction today, and a fairly pricey one, and it will certainly be the last one I buy from them. Who knows, maybe that seller got reemed too and I made out.

[Beastmode]

Originally Posted by PhillipAbbott79

I will caveat it before you argue back and say that not all cards are created equal which is part of my argument, but still, here is a "big card" selling 1 to 2 weeks apart. It took me a few seconds to find it. I am sure I can find a lot more just like it.

http://www.milehighcardco.com/1909_1...-lot45542.aspx


http://www.ebay.com/itm/1909-11-T206...p2047675.l2557

Don't know much about this issue, but these aren't the same card. One's a Piedmont and one's a Caporal.