Discussion Topic & Your Opinions: What is the first baseball card

[rainier2004]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

it seems the hobby recognizes the 1869 red stocking team card as the 1st baseball card.

This is where I am at.

I think anything anyone wants to call can be a card, I mean are PCs "cards"? There are all sorts of definitions and things that we personally abide to with this and is highly debatable of course. To me, the Cinci team was the first pro team and that is definitely a "card" in my book so its the first card, none were of them or that team prior. So what exactly does that make the other P/S's, some of which we know were made earlier...I don't know that, but I still go w/ the Cinci p/s for what its worth.

[GaryPassamonte]

Not to rekindle a controversy, but do we know that any other P & S cards predate the P & S Red Stockings card?

[bgar3]

I have no real opinion on defining the first baseball card, but I think I can supply some information on the Peck and Snyder image, and other photos of the 1869 team.
As noted as part of a prior thread, the image used on the Peck and Snyder card is likely the first image of a professional baseball team, taken between June 16 and 18, (most likely the 18th), by Huff, a Newark NJ photographer. The team image was used and identified as by Huff in the July3, 1869 Harper's (woodcut), and the player heads from the image were used as woodcuts in the July 17, Leslie's. The next team photos were most likely Brady, Washington DC taken between June 25 and 28, and the Hoag composite in suits taken on July 1. (Rhodes and Eradi, The First Boys of Summer is especially helpful in making this timeline.)
Of possibly greater interest is the existence of at least 2 cdv's of players in Cincinnati uniforms. Barry Sloate's article inThe July/August 1996 issue of Vintage classic Baseball Collector has an illus
tration of Harry Wright taken by Broadhurst of Philadelphia and I have seen one of Allison by the same photographer. These could be the first "cards" of professional players in uniform.(this could be from 1869 or 1870)
I am not sure what Red Stocking photo Gary is referring to, sorry.

[oldjudge]

I think the circa 1860 Brooklyn Atlantics team CdV from the Heritage summer live auction is the first baseball card.

[drcy]

Does the 1860 CDV fit the commercial or 'given out as memento/collectible' aspect of baseball cards?

[Baseball Rarities]

Originally Posted by drcy

Does the 1860 CDV fit the commercial or 'given out as memento/collectible' aspect of baseball cards?

The example in Heritage came straight from the family of a player. Awesome piece.

[oldjudge]

Originally Posted by drcy

Does the 1860 CDV fit the commercial or 'given out as memento/collectible' aspect of baseball cards?

I guess I would respond in two ways. First, I am not aware of any universally accepted definition of a baseball card. For me, it is a card picturing a baseball player, or players. Under that definition, the Atlantics CdV certainly fits. Second, we do not know how the Atlantics CdV was acquired. Perhaps it was sold by the photographer, or sold at the game. Perhaps it was given away as a premium if you used his services. Perhaps it was inserted into boxes of laundry detergent. Just kidding, but you get the idea. It is the earliest baseball photographic image that I know of on a card. Hence, for me it is the earliest baseball card.

As for your question about the Grand Match tickets, they are from 1863. However, they fit many definitions of baseball cards. In my mind, they are earlier baseball cards than any of the P&S cards, but still not the first. I use the plural since all of the Grand Match tickets were issued at the same time. Since all of the players on the tickets took part in the baseball game, they all have a right to be called early baseball cards.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

I guess I would respond in two ways. First, I am not aware of any universally accepted definition of a baseball card. For me, it is a card picturing a baseball player, or players. Under that definition, the Atlantics CdV certainly fits. Second, we do not know how the Atlantics CdV was acquired. Perhaps it was sold by the photographer, or sold at the game. Perhaps it was given away as a premium if you used his services. Perhaps it was inserted into boxes of laundry detergent. Just kidding, but you get the idea. It is the earliest baseball photographic image that I know of on a card. Hence, for me it is the earliest baseball card.

As for your question about the Grand Match tickets, they are from 1863. However, they fit many definitions of baseball cards. In my mind, they are earlier baseball cards than any of the P&S cards, but still not the first. I use the plural since all of the Grand Match tickets were issued at the same time. Since all of the players on the tickets took part in the baseball game, they all have a right to be called early baseball cards.

+1... I have always felt that these grand match tickets should be considered baseball cards .

[Baseball Rarities]

Originally Posted by rainier2004

So what exactly does that make the other P/S's, some of which we know were made earlier...

Which do we know were made earlier? The 1868 Atlantics Trade card has a advertisement on the reverse that seems to date it to 1870. There is also an 1870 newspaper advertisement that offers all of the trade cards, including the 1868 Atlantics. The Atlantics card has never been seen offered earlier than 1870.

There is an 1869 ad that offers the Cincinnati team, but only in CDV form. This ad has Peck and Snyder listed on Ann St. IMHO, all of the Peck and Snyder trade cards were issued after the Cincinnati CDVs that were issued in 1869 when Peck and Snyder was on Ann St. I have posted these ads before, but I can dig them up if anyone cares.

[drcy]

Thank you for the info, Kevin.

What about the 1863 Harry & George Wright cricket/baseball ticket? (I'm awaiting the response "It's a ticket." I'm also expecting "What part of '1863 comes after 1860' don't you understand?")

There's also a circa 1865 Mathew Brady CDV of the Harry and George Wright. It could have been a personal CDV for the Wrights, but Mathew did make and commercially sell to the public CDVs of celebrities . . . Obviously, one of the issues with this subject is there are unanswered questions and another is the earliest card known (even if there is consensus on what it is) is only the earliest card known. A third is that many of our hobby terms and rules for old cards, including 'rookie card' and its definition, are modern terms and rules applied retroactively.

As I've often said, the earlier you get, the more it becomes baseball card theory. There are even regular debates on what constitutes a baseball card. Which is why I appreciate everyone's points of view and opinions.