Do Roger Maris or Albert Belle belong in the HOF

[packs]

Originally Posted by rats60

Maris would never win the MVP today. Mark Mcgwire didn't win MVP when he hit 70 Hrs. It is also why players aren't elected to the HoF because they broke one record or had one good season. Mantle should have won MVP, he led the AL in WAR with 10.5. Cash was 2nd with 9.2. Maris was tied for 5th with 6.9.

Maris may have hit 61 Hrs, but he was certainly greatly helped by having the true AL MVP protecting him in the lineup. Maris was never intentionally walked in 1961. Most likely never pitched around and saw good pitches when pitchers fell behind in the count. Still overall he didn't have that great of a season. When Ryan Howard hit 58 Hrs in 2006, we had 37 IBB and a total of 108 BB. How many more Hrs does he hit if he is protected in the lineup by Mickey Mantle? Today we have the ability to look deeper than how many Hrs a player hit or that writers voted for a guy who they really shouldn't have for an award.

Not that great of a year? He led the entire league in runs, home runs, rbi's and total bases while breaking a record held by Babe Ruth. McGwire didn't win when he hit 70 but Sosa did for hitting 66; not really an apt comparison when both players broke the record and one of them still won MVP. Bonds also won MVP when he broke McGwire's record.

Lastly, I think you're wrong about players not getting in for a historic season. Bill Terry was a great hitter, but he waited 15 years for induction and it took him 9 years to even get 50%. Are you suggesting his ultimate induction had nothing to do with him hitting 400?

[Jim65]

Originally Posted by packs

Not that great of a year? He led the entire league in runs, home runs, rbi's and total bases while breaking a record held by Babe Ruth. McGwire didn't win when he hit 70 but Sosa did for hitting 66; not really an apt comparison when both players broke the record and one of them still won MVP. Bonds also won MVP when he broke McGwire's record.

Lastly, I think you're wrong about players not getting in for a historic season. Bill Terry was a great hitter, but he waited 15 years for induction and it took him 9 years to even get 50%. Are you suggesting his ultimate induction had nothing to do with him hitting 400?

His .400 season had something to do with it but Terry was a lifetime .341 hitter so his great season wasn't the only reason. Maris' supporters want him in the HOF based on 1 great season.

[packs]

Originally Posted by Jim65

His .400 season had something to do with it but Terry was a lifetime .341 hitter so his great season wasn't the only reason. Maris' supporters want him in the HOF based on 1 great season.

Are you sure that's not why Terry got in? He's ranked as the number 23rd first baseman of all time, behind John Olerud. His batting average looks nice but his advanced stats put him behind all other HOF first basemen:

54.2 career WAR / 41.2 7yr-peak WAR / 47.7 JAWS
Average HOF 1B (out of 21):
66.8 career WAR / 42.7 7yr-peak WAR / 54.7 JAWS

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by packs

Are you sure that's not why Terry got in? He's ranked as the number 23rd first baseman of all time, behind John Olerud. His batting average looks nice but his advanced stats put him behind all other HOF first basemen:

54.2 career WAR / 41.2 7yr-peak WAR / 47.7 JAWS
Average HOF 1B (out of 21):
66.8 career WAR / 42.7 7yr-peak WAR / 54.7 JAWS

Right, but at the time he got in, there were no advanced stats so the focus probably was more on his BA. Sisler is another guy whose advanced stats really lag behind his BA and perhaps public perception.

[packs]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Right, but at the time he got in, there were no advanced stats so the focus probably was more on his BA.

Which one, though? Lifetime or the year he hit 400?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by packs

Which one, though? Lifetime or the year he hit 400?

I suspect some of each, but that without the career the one season would not have been sufficient.

[darwinbulldog]

Everyone with 5000+ ABs and a .340+ BA is in the Hall. Doesn't matter what their best season was.

edited to add: The best career batting average of players with 5000 or more at-bats who haven't been inducted is .324 (Babe Herman), followed by Helton and Cabrera at .316.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by packs

Not that great of a year? He led the entire league in runs, home runs, rbi's and total bases while breaking a record held by Babe Ruth. McGwire didn't win when he hit 70 but Sosa did for hitting 66; not really an apt comparison when both players broke the record and one of them still won MVP. Bonds also won MVP when he broke McGwire's record.

Lastly, I think you're wrong about players not getting in for a historic season. Bill Terry was a great hitter, but he waited 15 years for induction and it took him 9 years to even get 50%. Are you suggesting his ultimate induction had nothing to do with him hitting 400?

It's not in the top 500 seasons for position players WAR. You want to put a guy in the HOF based on 1 season then why not Al Rosen for 10.1 WAR in 1953? Or how about Dwight Gooden for 12.2 WAR in 1985?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by rats60

It's not in the top 500 seasons for position players WAR. You want to put a guy in the HOF based on 1 season then why not Al Rosen for 10.1 WAR in 1953? Or how about Dwight Gooden for 12.2 WAR in 1985?

Rico Petrocelli 1969 was right up there with Rosen.

[Touch'EmAll]

We are not talking about just any old puny record here like most bunt singles in a season, or most steals of 3rd, or some other such record. We are talking about one of the most haloed, prestigious and most famous records in all of American sports history - most HR in a season ! Also, by the way he had not one but 2 MVP winning seasons, and several all-star games to boot. Down play it all you want, everyone it entitled to their opinions.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Denny McLain, anyone? Back to back Cys and an astonishing 30 win season.

[Huysmans]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Denny McLain, anyone? Back to back Cys and an astonishing 30 win season.

Nope
The Cy Young has been awarded how many times? To how many different pitchers? At least a dozen different players have won it multiple times....
Hitting 61 Home runs or more? Now how many players are in THAT list?
His 31 win-season is especially impressive... I'll give you that.
But wins by pitchers carry nowhere near the fame of hitting home runs...

[Peter_Spaeth]

I don't think anyone identified McLain as a guy who fell off the cliff in the other thread, but he would be a very good example.

[Forever Young]

Originally Posted by 100backstroke

We are not talking about just any old puny record here like most bunt singles in a season, or most steals of 3rd, or some other such record. We are talking about one of the most haloed, prestigious and most famous records in all of American sports history - most HR in a season ! Also, by the way he had not one but 2 MVP winning seasons, and several all-star games to boot. Down play it all you want, everyone it entitled to their opinions.

Agreed. Maris deserves to be in the HOF.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by 100backstroke

We are not talking about just any old puny record here like most bunt singles in a season, or most steals of 3rd, or some other such record. We are talking about one of the most haloed, prestigious and most famous records in all of American sports history - most HR in a season ! Also, by the way he had not one but 2 MVP winning seasons, and several all-star games to boot. Down play it all you want, everyone it entitled to their opinions.

Not any more. It's only the 7th highest total. It's not like there was a lot of interest when Stanton hit 59 in 2017 or Ryan Howard hit 58 in 2006. If Maris couldn't get elected 25 years ago, there is zero chance he gets in in the future.

[Touch'EmAll]

So, now 7th place only behind the steroid junkies diminishes Maris' old record?

[Peter_Spaeth]

It's a great single season record and I do think those who hit more are tainted. But it's still a single season, and we evaluate HOFers based on their career. And by that measure Maris is not even close.

[Touch'EmAll]

The "Hall of Great Careers" vs. the "Hall of Fame". I will totally give you the fact that Maris' overall career numbers could be short. But it isn't called the Hall of great careers. It is called the Hall of Fame. Many HOF members can't hold a candle to Maris in the Fame department. I feel, maybe incorrectly, that HOF has a duty to capture historical significant players/accomplishments.

[bigfanNY]

Well the Hall of Fame justifies Tommy McCarthy due to his significant contributions to the game. So it is a real a contributing factor when consideration for the Baseball Hall of Fame.

[packs]

Originally Posted by rats60

It's not in the top 500 seasons for position players WAR. You want to put a guy in the HOF based on 1 season then why not Al Rosen for 10.1 WAR in 1953? Or how about Dwight Gooden for 12.2 WAR in 1985?

DiMaggio's 1941 season is good for only 123rd all time in terms of single season WAR. Does that make his 56 game streak null and void? It's still considered one of the greatest seasons anyone has ever had.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by packs

DiMaggio's 1941 season is good for only 123rd all time in terms of single season WAR. Does that make his 56 game streak null and void? It's still considered one of the greatest seasons anyone has ever had.

Joe DiMaggio's 56-game hitting streak will never be broken with the current breed of BB players. All other BB records may be broken....BUT, not this one (in my opinion).

Furthermore, it dramatically shows that this term called "WAR" is just a bunch of newspeak "hor$e-cr@p" as a meaningful metric to judge a BB players value to his team.

Right-on, packs....thanks for posting this bit of trivia.






TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[Huysmans]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Joe DiMaggio's 56-game hitting streak will never be broken with the current breed of BB players. All other BB records may be broken....BUT, not this one (in my opinion).

Furthermore, it dramatically shows that this term called "WAR" is just a bunch of newspeak "hor$e-cr@p" as a meaningful metric to judge a BB players value to his team.

Right-on, packs....thanks for posting this bit of trivia.

While I agree Ted that the Clipper's record will probably never be broken... Its possible.
What's impossible, is someone climbing past Young's 511 wins... that record is sealed for the ages.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Huysmans

While I agree Ted that the Clipper's record will probably never be broken... Its possible.
What's impossible, is someone climbing past Young's 511 wins... that record is sealed for the ages.

Brent

Joe DiMaggio's 56-game streak is possibe. But, highly improbable. DiMaggio's hitting style has become a lost art. How many of you realize that DiMaggio ran a 66-game hitting streak in the PCL ?
So, Joe had "been there, done that".

When Rose was flirting with breaking it in 1978 with his 44-game streak, the sports media pressure was unbelievable. And, there in is the all important mental component that factors in to trying
to achieve this record.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Brent

Joe DiMaggio's 56-game streak is possibe. But, highly improbable. DiMaggio's hitting style has become a lost art. How many of you realize that DiMaggio ran a 66-game hitting streak in the PCL ?
So, Joe had "been there, done that".

When Rose was flirting with breaking it in 1978 with his 44-game streak, the sports media pressure was unbelievable. And, there in is the all important mental component that factors in to trying
to achieve this record.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

He literally struck out less in a season a couple of times than some guys now strike out in a week. His record, at least in present times, is safe.

[darwinbulldog]

Barring any major changes in how the game is played (which is a little unrealistic I'll admit), there's about a 5% chance DiMaggio's record is broken in the next 100 years. That's extrapolating from Bill James's calculations of the annual probabilities. For Cy Young I'd guess it's lower than 1% but not much lower. Imagine this scenario...

A pitcher with peak ability somewhat better than, say, Pedro Martinez also has, via good genes and mechanics and improvements in athletic training, the longevity of Nolan Ryan and is fortunate enough to pitch for a team that, on average across his career, also has the best lineup in his league. Let's say also that his career starts ten years from now when every team has a 2-3 inning starter and a 1 inning closer, and that this guy's job is to pitch innings 3-8 every fifth day or 4-8 every fourth day. He pitches for 25 years and also happens to be a slightly more skilled pitcher than the best ones we've seen so far. Such a pitcher would average better than 20 wins a year (i.e., > 500 career Ws).

The odds that someone will break Hoss Radbourn's single season mark are much lower, and as I've mentioned before, anyone who can somehow win 61 games in a year at some future date stands an excellent chance of winning at least 512 in his career, whereas even a pitcher who somehow ends up with 512 career wins is unlikely to have had any 50 (let alone 60) win seasons.

[ronniehatesjazz]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Joe DiMaggio's 56-game hitting streak will never be broken with the current breed of BB players. All other BB records may be broken....BUT, not this one (in my opinion).

Furthermore, it dramatically shows that this term called "WAR" is just a bunch of newspeak "hor$e-cr@p" as a meaningful metric to judge a BB players value to his team.

Right-on, packs....thanks for posting this bit of trivia.






TED Z

T206 Reference
.

Damn it, just picked up my first pack of camels in over 15 years... was only a matter of time. Totally blaming it on the catchy advertising.