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  #91  
Old 03-14-2017, 04:53 PM
akleinb611's Avatar
akleinb611 akleinb611 is offline
Al@n Kle!nberger
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I'm back! And so is this thread!

I have trouble letting things go, or so my wife tells me...

Anyway, this has been a great experience when it comes to comparing our collections, and thanks to Doug, I for one have learned a lot about the endless caption variations. I'm confident that I'll never have the budget or the focus to collect them all.

However, I'd like to steer things a little closer to what I had in mind in the first place, which is to exchange information about the set. Let's face it, there are few major sets about which so little is known. And there are lots and lots of questions.

Are there any Baseball MAGAZINE collectors/experts out there? Does anyone have any detailed knowledge about the magazine's final years, how its inventory was ultimately disposed (there was a major auction house sale a few years ago - the printing plates have already been cited). Was there an inventory of posters included in that sale? Have there been any warehouse finds? Because pioneer New York area dealer Bob Gallagher was selling M114's from a two foot high stack on his table at shows in the late Seventies, and I don't think he purchased them one at a time.

Other issues I'd like people to join in on: set oddities. Ken Keltner is listed as having had posters issued in 1939 and 1947. I've only seen the one relatively common batting pose. Any other versions lurking out there?

Not long ago, someone got hold of a 1928 Jimmie Foxx printed in green rather than the usual sepia. It looked like the real thing. Anyone else have off-color premiums? (you're free to insert your own jokes here)...

Finally, here's my current list of posters that do not appear on the official list. Please, by all means, feel free to add to them:

M113: 1-4) Ty Cobb, Johnny Evers, Frank Chance, Walter Johnson - each seems to exist in two poses, and the official list has only one each.
5) Vic Saier - not listed anywhere
6) Death Valley Scott - also not listed, although I've seen a few around.

M114: 1) Mickey Cochrane (Tigers) - probably 1935. Only version on the list is from 1925, obviously showing him with the A's
2) Rudolph York (Tigers, batting) - there's a catching pose from 1938 and a dugout pose from 1946, both listing him as "Rudy." My guess for "Rudolph" is 1942.
3) Dizzy Dean (Cubs) - probably 1938
4) Joe Gordon (NY) - second pose, shown early in this thread. 1942?
5) Bob Feller (Washington DC caption) - probably 1957
6) Ty Cobb (batting cage, Washington DC) - shown in an earlier post of mine, probably 1957
7) Mickey Mantle - two poses have been shown in this thread, only one is on the list

Happy hunting.

Alan Kleinberger

Last edited by akleinb611; 03-14-2017 at 05:34 PM. Reason: correct typos, additional information
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  #92  
Old 12-06-2018, 01:59 PM
Estwd Estwd is offline
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Hi Dave - I just purchased a Ted. It has a New York address on it. Does that mean it was printed in 1939? Also,were there different images used for the 1939 vs 1949 versions?

Thanks for your help!

Evan

Quote:
Originally Posted by Harford20 View Post
Alan,
Thanks for the thread, and yes, your article is the GO-TO knowledge (I use it frequently). I have about 15 different M113 and about 40 different M114 in my collection, mostly HoF players. I would reiterate two comments from Alan's work that are really worse than he states:

First, as noted in Alan's article and with Doug's presentation of the Aaron, those post-1953 M114 are far tougher than any others. The Aaron I have (just as the one Doug posted) took me >5 YEARS to find, and that is searching auctions and eBay on a minimum of 2-3x/week basis. I really wonder what the actual print run of these photos were.

Second, as an avid Ted Williams, I have almost been "hoarding" both the 1939 and 1949 versions of Ted, with about 10 of the 1939 and 8 of the 1949. Also what I note here is that the "Washington D.C." address of the 1950 and beyond M114s are also much rarer than I expected. As I have 2 of the "1949 versions" of Ted with the Washington D.C. address, I presume that these were actually done in the early 1950's, so I have always wondered how much the dates are TRUE, or are many of the M114s like the corresponding Exhibits, and have a "range" of actual printing dates?

Just a few points.

Dave
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  #93  
Old 12-06-2018, 02:17 PM
Estwd Estwd is offline
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Hi Doug,

Did pose #1 come out first - is that the 1939 version?

Quote:
Originally Posted by doug.goodman View Post
Hey! I resemble that remark!

Ted Williams is a perfect illustration of what makes this set so maddening.

There are two different Ted poses (that I know of).

With this set, everything is "that we know of", because there isn't really a way to be sure that there isn't another different one.

Speaking just for myself, when I make a statement on this issue, it is based on what I know, or think I know, and I will have no problem being corrected when I am wrong. So, with Ted, when I say there are two different poses, and somebody has a third pose PLEASE post a picture, AND sell it to me. Or, maybe we can trade?

Below are the two Ted poses, I call the one with the stadium background pose #1, and the one on the black background pose #2. My next post will explain how there are seven different Ted Williams posters...
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  #94  
Old 12-08-2018, 10:17 PM
lumberjack lumberjack is offline
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Alan,
The auction you are speaking of took place in New York City over two days in September of 1996. Christie's East (I don't believe there has been an "East" for some time), handled the auction. Once in a while, a catalog will turn up on eBay. They are a trip.

The auction was a big deal; the New York Times did a article a week before the sale. This was good publicity for the auction house, but I don't believe they considered this stuff to be classy material. There were about 17 thousand photos in the auction.

Bill Mastro was the big spender on the first day, buying Conlon lots and lots packed with HOFers. He may have spent in the vicinity of 40 thousand dollars. Mr. Mastro was a smart guy and may have had buyers for this stuff when he walked on to the auction floor. There were, maybe, two other big dealers who picked up a disproportionate number of lots. I can think of only one or two private collectors who may have made an imprint.

There had been the Culver sale of Bain photo about 4 years prior to this auction. Sotheby's handled that auction. That was the first time photographs went for big money. That was just a weird auction....


There were no M113 or M114 premiums, but there were about 20 lots of what the auction house called "cover" photos. I have at least one that wasn't mounted, but most were Conlon shots affexed to heavy board.

BB Magazine was around from 1908 into 1955. Between '55 and '65 it was sort of hit and miss.

The last publisher was Earl Noyes of Washington. D.C. His widow was in possession of the photo library until the Christie's sale. She had made attempts to sell the photos, but, until the Christie's auction, had no luck. You have to remember, photographs were of absolutely no value, if you were going to collect baseball memorabilia in those days, it would have been cards or autographs or programs. I have been told there was an asking price of $100,000, which would have constituted a real gamble. Who knows?

Here's the punch line: about three weeks after Christie's hauled out the 17 thousand photos, a pipe flooded the apartment where the pictures had been stored.
lumberjack
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  #95  
Old 12-09-2018, 04:42 AM
doug.goodman doug.goodman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Estwd View Post
Hi Doug,

Did pose #1 come out first - is that the 1939 version?
I'm happy that this thread is back in action...

I do not know, and I'm not sure if it's possible to know which years many of these issues were printed.

Doug
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  #96  
Old 12-09-2018, 02:12 PM
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akleinb611 akleinb611 is offline
Al@n Kle!nberger
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Hello everyone. To answer the question asked about the two Ted Williams poses, I believe Doug may have accidentally transposed them, chronologically speaking. The Ted Williams pose showing a very young Williams against a dark background was issued in 1939. There is no way to know precisely when your copy might have been printed, as the M114's were kept in print and were periodically reprinted, until they weren't. There seems to have been frequent tinkering with the typesetting on the captions, which is where Doug's incredibly precise collecting efforts come in, but I don't believe anyone is in a position to know the year or years each caption type was issued.

So, to summarize, the Williams pose with the dark background was FIRST issued in 1939 and was probably reprinted and made available through 1948 or even early 1949. The second pose, showing a stadium background, was first offered in 1949, probably late I the year, and was undoubtedly available until the magazine when under. A "New York" caption line would have been available at least through 1954, perhaps later until the stock ran out. A "Washington D.C." caption line would have to post-date the magazine's sale to a DC - area publisher, which I believe took place in 1954 or 1955. The last "regular" issue of the magazine came out in 1956, but apparently the premiums were still being produced for another year or so. No word on whether the 1964-65 revival made the earlier premiums available.

There. I hope that's as clear as mud...
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  #97  
Old 12-09-2018, 09:30 PM
Estwd Estwd is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by akleinb611 View Post
Hello everyone. To answer the question asked about the two Ted Williams poses, I believe Doug may have accidentally transposed them, chronologically speaking. The Ted Williams pose showing a very young Williams against a dark background was issued in 1939. There is no way to know precisely when your copy might have been printed, as the M114's were kept in print and were periodically reprinted, until they weren't. There seems to have been frequent tinkering with the typesetting on the captions, which is where Doug's incredibly precise collecting efforts come in, but I don't believe anyone is in a position to know the year or years each caption type was issued.

So, to summarize, the Williams pose with the dark background was FIRST issued in 1939 and was probably reprinted and made available through 1948 or even early 1949. The second pose, showing a stadium background, was first offered in 1949, probably late I the year, and was undoubtedly available until the magazine when under. A "New York" caption line would have been available at least through 1954, perhaps later until the stock ran out. A "Washington D.C." caption line would have to post-date the magazine's sale to a DC - area publisher, which I believe took place in 1954 or 1955. The last "regular" issue of the magazine came out in 1956, but apparently the premiums were still being produced for another year or so. No word on whether the 1964-65 revival made the earlier premiums available.

There. I hope that's as clear as mud...
Very helpful, thanks!

Evan

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