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  #771  
Old 12-06-2018, 11:15 PM
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T206Collector T206Collector is offline
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Originally Posted by Lordstan View Post
I think provenance is one factor to consider. It's no different than any other factor like pen type, slant, pressure, etc, etc. No one factor universally trumps others especially when considering giving opinions. No TPA or anyone can guarantee that any auto is real, outside of witnessing situations. We all should consider all factors before giving that opinion.
Agree. And most Auction houses will tell you that the best autograph collections also contain a meaningful percentage of fakes. It does, unfortunately, come with the territory of collecting autographs. And either you can stomach it or not.

Personally, I’d much rather be buying potentially authentic raw signed T206 cards from an old time collection for $250 like it was 2007 again, than dropping $6,000 on a never before heard of signed T206 of Billy Sullivan encapsulated by any of the TPAs without any context about where it came from. I’ve done both, and I can tell you which one feels better over time!
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Last edited by T206Collector; 12-06-2018 at 11:16 PM.
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  #772  
Old 12-06-2018, 11:23 PM
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Lordstan Lordstan is offline
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3) Understand what level of risk you are willing to accept. If your answer is none, then you should not collect anything at all. Save your money and go on vacations around the world. Anywhere demand and money meet, criminals will look to take advantage. It is true in any collectible.
I wrote this is post 290 of this thread. IMO, This is the proper mindset for anyone collecting anything. There will always be bad people trying to take advantage of situations for power, money, control, etc. We all need to define our tolerance level for that risk. I collect autographs because I am comfortable with the risk that is involved. I take measures to try to mitigate that risk, but fully understand that my collection very likely has some bad items in it. Would I prefer them to not be there? SUre. unfortunately, the only way to guarantee that is to only collect autos I see signed in person. To me that would lessen my enjoyment of my hobby
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  #773  
Old 12-06-2018, 11:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Lordstan View Post
I wrote this is post 290 of this thread. IMO, This is the proper mindset for anyone collecting anything. There will always be bad people trying to take advantage of situations for power, money, control, etc. We all need to define our tolerance level for that risk. I collect autographs because I am comfortable with the risk that is involved. I take measures to try to mitigate that risk, but fully understand that my collection very likely has some bad items in it. Would I prefer them to not be there? SUre. unfortunately, the only way to guarantee that is to only collect autos I see signed in person. To me that would lessen my enjoyment of my hobby
Well said (again)!
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  #774  
Old 12-07-2018, 08:14 AM
obcbobd obcbobd is offline
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As others have mentioned, it remains to be seen what effect this will have on the hobby - and particularly the prices of pre-war signed cards.
I would think demand would go down big time. I'm just one person, but my dream has been to one day own a signed Goudey Ruth. I figured as long as it was authenticated by JSA I could be comfortable in that it was authentic. As I approach the time where I could afford such a purchase, I am no longer comfortable doing so.

Reminds me of the one time I did by an autograph 25 years ago. It came with a cert. The index card was signed "Robert Clemente", the description in the cert said the card was signed "Best Wishes, Robert Clemente". I called the seller and they said, "no problem, I'll have our auto guy draw up a new cert for you". I returned the card.
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  #775  
Old 12-07-2018, 08:42 AM
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..."no problem, I'll have our auto guy draw up a new cert for you". I returned the card.
At least he didn’t say “no problem, I’ll have our auto guy add the ‘Best Wishes’ for you.”
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  #776  
Old 12-07-2018, 09:42 AM
mr2686 mr2686 is offline
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At least he didn’t say “no problem, I’ll have our auto guy add the ‘Best Wishes’ for you.”
Oh man, you just made me spit up my cereal and milk all over the keyboard. LOL
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  #777  
Old 12-07-2018, 10:07 AM
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I brought this up several days ago on this thread. I have bought and sold thousands of vintage signed cards over the past decade and have never seen such a big quantity of signed 1952 Topps as is out there now.
Because I mainly collect 52 Topps cards, although not signed ones, I have also noticed this lately. Someone on here said, it could be older collectors now selling off their old collections, which could very well be, but it seems odd to me that multiple old collectors would choose to do so at the same time?
I recently saved a random recently signed 52 Topps card just to see if I could find it unsigned somewhere prior but when I went into Worthpoint, there were 23 pgs of this players card so I went no further as I viewed it as a daunting task and without having any dog in the fight myself, a huge time killer.

I have also wondered, since joining this site, even if a signed card was purchased 20, 30, 40 years ago, how does one know, without provenance, if that signature is real? I have also always wondered, if the player had passed on prior to those years, what do TPAs use as their basis for comparison?

In my opinion, if the TPA's don't have/own something that acts as a certified template with undeniable provenance, then how can they 100% guarantee the sig is legit?
I think the only way of going forward from now on, and only if the test can be 100% guaranteed, carbon dating or something similar will now have to be used in order to bring some trust back into the hobby? Just my thoughts anyway.

EDIT: To add further to my thoughts above. Being as thousands and thousands of players have played, say, in just over the last century in all kinds of sports such as baseball, hockey, football and basketball, to name just 4, and you're out at a flea market, for example, and you come across a common, unheard of, forgotten about player's signed card. You purchase said signed card and you send it in to be authenticated. Please tell me what TPAs would use to authenticate the sig is 100% legit? Thinking further, even if we had carbon dating and it was proved the ink was of at least as old as the card, who's to say the sig wasn't signed back then by some kid or adult that was just goofing around playing with their card?

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Originally Posted by gregr2 View Post
But isn’t that chaos what is needed? I mean, they need to get it right. Wouldn’t the hobby rather go through a time of chaos but at the end have it correct? To me, that seems like the right way to take it.


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I agree 100%! Without pain there can be no gain, and if this situation isn't torn down to the very bottom, then there will always be doubt within the hobby and that side of the hobby, imo, will be forever scarred.

Last edited by irv; 12-07-2018 at 10:48 AM.
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  #778  
Old 12-07-2018, 10:43 AM
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Lordstan Lordstan is offline
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I have also wondered, since joining this site, even if a signed card was purchased 20, 30, 40 years ago, how does one know, without provenance, if that signature is real?
The reality is you can't KNOW that a signature is real unless you see it signed in person. Even if your best friend gives you a signed item, you still can't KNOW, as in absolutely certain. You believe the person is being honest as they are your friend, but you can't know it.

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Originally Posted by irv View Post
I have also always wondered, if the player had passed on prior to those years, what do TPAs use as their basis for comparison?
There are many items people use as exemplars based upon the preponderance of evidence. If it's good enough for our court system that can sentence people to life imprisonment or even possibly death, then it should be good enough for vetting autographs.

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Originally Posted by irv View Post
In my opinion, if the TPA's don't have/own something that acts as a certified template with undeniable provenance, then how can they 100% guarantee the sig is legit?
TPAs CAN NOT and DO NOT GUARANTEE ANYTHING except for witnessed events. The certification process is about them giving an opinion. That's it. They are no different than anyone on this board. We can all give our opinions based upon each of our own experience and knowledge. The only difference really is that the TPAs have convinced people that their opinion is worth paying for. People pay for them and then sleep better at night.

Quote:
Originally Posted by irv View Post
I think the only way of going forward from now on, and only if the test can be 100% guaranteed, carbon dating or something similar will now have to be used in order to bring some trust back into the hobby? Just my thoughts anyway.
As I posted earlier, if you are only comfortable with 100% certainty, you should not collect ANYTHING. There is fraud in every single collectible market.
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Other interests/sets/collectibles.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/96571220@N08/albums

My for sale or trade photobucket album
https://flic.kr/s/aHsk7c1SRL
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  #779  
Old 12-07-2018, 10:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Lordstan View Post
The reality is you can't KNOW that a signature is real unless you see it signed in person. Even if your best friend gives you a signed item, you still can't KNOW, as in absolutely certain. You believe the person is being honest as they are your friend, but you can't know it.


There are many items people use as exemplars based upon the preponderance of evidence. If it's good enough for our court system that can sentence people to life imprisonment or even possibly death, then it should be good enough for vetting autographs.



TPAs CAN NOT and DO NOT GUARANTEE ANYTHING except for witnessed events. The certification process is about them giving an opinion. That's it. They are no different than anyone on this board. We can all give our opinions based upon each of our own experience and knowledge. The only difference really is that the TPAs have convinced people that their opinion is worth paying for. People pay for them and then sleep better at night.


As I posted earlier, if you are only comfortable with 100% certainty, you should not collect ANYTHING. There is fraud in every single collectible market.
I added this above, Mark.

"EDIT: To add further to my thoughts above. Being as thousands and thousands of players have played, say, in just over the last century in all kinds of sports such as baseball, hockey, football and basketball, to name just 4, and you're out at a flea market, for example, and you come across a common, unheard of, forgotten about player's signed card. You purchase said signed card and you send it in to be authenticated. Please tell me what TPAs would use to authenticate the sig is 100% legit? Thinking further, even if we had carbon dating and it was proved the ink was of at least as old as the card, who's to say the sig wasn't signed back then by some kid or adult that was just goofing around playing with their card?"

I understand what you are saying but I honestly didn't realize there was so much blind faith/hope in the hobby, especially when large amounts of money are being laid down for said cards.

But like me and my sole purchase of a signed 52 Topps card, seeing it in a certified slab was enough for me.

This whole thread/situation has definitely been an eye opener for me even though I don't collect signed cards.

Like I have said numerous times since I joined this site back in 2016, I had no idea, gave it no thought whatsoever, that fraud would be so prevalent in this hobby or that it even existed.
Oh, how I have quickly learned!
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  #780  
Old 12-07-2018, 11:35 AM
The Nasty Nati The Nasty Nati is offline
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Oh the irony of this SGC article.
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